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How many AM stations still actively use HD Radio (AM-HD)? Are there any in your area?

That's impressive. What kind of tuner and antenna were used for this? Are you able to hear any other clear channel stations up there with this sort of regularity and lack of competition (heterodyne/beating)?

The only out-of-market clear channel I can receive with that kind of consistent clarity and strength is 740 from San Francisco. But listening from Los Angeles, that's not so impressive.
 
Beating a dead horse?
 
Beating a dead horse?
Just adding to common dead horses:
*AM stereo
*Perceived interference from HD
*Radio should play only music I like because that will fix everything.
*Radio needs more yakky DJ's.
*Radio needs less yakky DJ's.
*Radio needs less and fewer breaks.
*Corporate ownership of radio is bad.
*Radio broadcasting in quadraphonic will bring listening back from streaming.
*You can become rich doing radio.
 
That's impressive. What kind of tuner and antenna were used for this? Are you able to hear any other clear channel stations up there with this sort of regularity and lack of competition (heterodyne/beating)?

The only out-of-market clear channel I can receive with that kind of consistent clarity and strength is 740 from San Francisco. But listening from Los Angeles, that's not so impressive.
There are a variety of SDR radios available, a number for under $100, that can be attached to a loop antenna.

Those SDR devices today do as well as or better than radios like the 1960's Hammarlund HQ.180, the preferred radio for DXers in the day, which cost over $500 at the time... about $5,300 today.

One of the best is Amazon.com for under $80.

SDR is "Software Defined Radio"
 
There are a variety of SDR radios available, a number for under $100, that can be attached to a loop antenna.

Those SDR devices today do as well as or better than radios like the 1960's Hammarlund HQ.180, the preferred radio for DXers in the day, which cost over $500 at the time... about $5,300 today.

One of the best is Amazon.com for under $80.

SDR is "Software Defined Radio"
I use one that's free online: http://kiwisdr.com/public/
 
That's impressive. What kind of tuner and antenna were used for this? Are you able to hear any other clear channel stations up there with this sort of regularity and lack of competition (heterodyne/beating)?

The only out-of-market clear channel I can receive with that kind of consistent clarity and strength is 740 from San Francisco. But listening from Los Angeles, that's not so impressive.

a 15 ft circumference wellbrook loop with a dx engineering preamp and a tef6686 radio... and audio set at 8khz!

KFKB is my most regular disatant station. KVRI 1600 is a very very close second...... KKXA 1520 is a a close 3rd, mostly.

Many of the lower 48 clears have stations on the same frequency up here that would also be Class A Clears , even though some of them only have 10kw.

KNBR is pretty decent up here sometimes. KCBS 740 isnt as good up here as youd expect.

KFAX is pretty decent up here most of the time. I've heard sister 1220 a few times along with 860.

KSJX is fairly common here but not so well all of the time, more so mroe often than tower mate AM 1370 KZSF and 1170 KLOK.

1550 here is a mix of them and "blaine, WA" and hard to tell apart

640 and 1070 los angeles...... no to KFI as i have a 10kw 175 miles away on 640... 1070 is a mix of CFAX and and KNX.

I cant recall others, ask and ill tell you how well or not, that i hear them./
 
Not much different than local reception!

Most nights, reception of KFBK is a minimum of mid to upper 80s dbuv on my radio, but often in the mid 90s dbuv.. and it just.. sits there.. it doesnt waiver much.. sometimes there will be a fade down.. but its slow.. and comes right back up
 
a 15 ft circumference wellbrook loop with a dx engineering preamp and a tef6686 radio... and audio set at 8khz!
Impressive catches. May I ask which loop and amp models specifically? I recognized the Wellbrook name, but when looking just now, they appear to have gone out of business only last year with the owner passing away shortly after. (People are also saying the Chinese ripped off his patents, preventing him from selling the business to anyone else.)

One of the best is Amazon.com for under $80.
I have that one. Fantastic reception. As I mentioned somewhere else on the forum, I'm still amazed that XHITZ 90.3 Tijuana (signal footprint) is receivable with it so clearly night after night where I'm situated in the eastern San Gabriel valley. It shouldn't be possible, but in the best reception spots around my property, including inside the house (woodframe with chickenwire under stucco), the DX-286 reports that XHITZ is at 28 dBu / 46 dB, and in the most ideal spots, the audio virtually full quiets in mono and sounds only slightly crunchy and hissy in stereo. I'm either experiencing some kind of seasonally permanent e-skip or tropospheric ducting, or there's a pirate broadcasting XHITZ' web stream on that frequency in my area. It is definitely not K212FA, a 10 watt KPFK translator 14 miles west of me. The 90.3 signal I'm receiving identifies audibly as Z90 and has "Z90" and "TOP 40" in its RDS. So, if it's a fan pirate, he even encodes RDS...

Just adding to common dead horses:
I think one horse on that list is still breathing:
*Corporate ownership of radio is bad.
Essentially exclusive corporate ownership of it is bad. For the commercial part of the FM band, I would love if the FCC's ownership controls let 60% of frequencies be licensed according to existing ownership rules today, but if the next 30% were reserved for small regional owners (10 stations maximum/owner), with the final 10% being kept in reserve for one-off, local business owners (1 station maximum/owner -- for the Saul Levines and Mama Carlsons of the world). Regional owners would have to be headquartered 1,000 miles or less from their transmitters, and local ones 50 miles or less. I loathe government market controls in principle but terrestrial radio is a public resource with very scarce seating -- 50 to 100 spots for cities of millions, depending on whether there's normal versus "sardines" frequency spacing in your market. And there's precedent for reserving frequencies for an owner category (the 20 reserved for educational institutions).
 
I can kinda understand why would commercial stations crank up the Voltair, but why does EMF do it? As a non-commercial operator relying on listener donations, they don't need to care that much about their ratings.
For one thing, you would need to be in a PPM market. If you're not a Nielsen subscriber running on straight donations, why bother encoding?
I can't explain that and you're both right that it makes little sense. Yet their station has the most startling representation of that sound to my ears of any on the dial here. At one point, I located the national Air1 stream online and simultaneously recorded 100.7 (KYLA's nearest, full-quieting translator) through my DX-286 and the national stream through ffmpeg so I could do A/B comparisons later. The difference was apparent instantly. The national Air1 stream sounded essentially normal while the off-air recording was unlistenable. I even EQed away the large HF boost the KYLA processing was doing so both would sound comparable spectrally. That only made the effect in KYLA's midrange more noticeable to me.

It's funny. SomeRadioGuy's posting of KFBK's tophour.com ID in this thread got me listening to the Los Angeles section of the site. There, I noticed that a whole slew of KRTH recordings were available. So I began listening to them, one by one, going from the oldest to the newest. The moment I got to the April 2016 clip, wham! There it was. That sound. It remained present in each clip from there forward. And everything prior to it? Completely and utterly fine sounding. I went on to do a little investigating and found https://www.radioinsights.com/2016/04/nielsens-one-size-fits-all-ppm-solution.html. Very informative article on the audibility of this stuff. What I found most surprising was that it indicates Nielsen's enhanced PPM encoding scheme (eCBET) is "clearly audible" in many cases all by itself -- no need for Voltair abuse. Words like "unlistenable" are used, and agreement among engineers is cited. In one place, it says "a station using Voltair can lower the processing so that no artifacts are audible. That’s not true with the enhanced encoder. [...] If enhanced encoding creates audible artifacts on your station, there is nothing you can do." Wow.

Now I'm wondering how many stations use eCBET. Could KYLA be one, with a cranked Voltair making it extra audible? Or what if they have eCBET encoding alone without a Voltair, and some kind of strange processing later down the line is severely further unmasking its already audible sound, creating a hyped version of the effect? It is a mystery, one I can't say I feel like investing any time in. I just know that for my ears, the severity of the effect on their station is quite high.
 
Impressive catches. May I ask which loop and amp models specifically? I recognized the Wellbrook name, but when looking just now, they appear to have gone out of business only last year with the owner passing away shortly after. (People are also saying the Chinese ripped off his patents, preventing him from selling the business to anyone else.)

He closed about 6 months before he died.

Its an ALA100LN where you supply your own cable/antenna wire of your size choosing and the dx engineering preamp
 
Oooh, HD on AM is my favorite topic. OK, maybe not right at the top of the list but ... a way forward for MW to remain relevant ... More later - just got approved and need to catch up on the thread.
I'm glad you like the topic 😀
 
You're quite welcome. :)

Good comparison. Yes, what's specifically taking place is that because of bit starvation, the IBOC AM codec couldn't even encode most of the upper portion of the real audio range (the range just beneath 3600 Hz). Consequently, with almost nothing in that range for the SBR logic to calculate any synthetic harmonics from, echos of that "gulch" appear multiple times within the synthesized SBR range. In every way imaginable, the audio is a complete wreck and a total loss.

Plus skywave at night. Plus adjacent channel interference.

At least broadcasters can increase their internet streams' bitrates. IBOC AM comparatively is a bitrate straight jacket. It's capable of going as high as 60 kbit/s from what I understand, but the sacrifice in FEC is said to make it too tetchy.

Appalling is the right word for that sound, but what you're hearing isn't actually lossy compression. I understand why you thought so, however, since very low bitrate lossy codecs produce a similar tonality to this stuff. What you're hearing, on both of those stations, is actually the accursed sound of Voltair. You can read about it this thread I started two years ago when I too wasn't yet clear on what was causing it:

https://radiodiscussions.com/thread...e-watermarking-is-this-kfi-and-others.756462/

Basically, Nielsen's PPM ratings watermarking encoders add station ID information in the form of modem sounds to 10 very thin slices of the audio spectrum between ~1 and ~3 kHz. Imagine something like FSK tones, with one at 1 kHz, the next at 1.2 kHz, the third at 1.4 kHz, going all the way to the 10th at around 3 kHz. Well, you don't want listeners to ever hear those. So Nielsen's PPM encoders only add them at very specific moments when they sense that other, existing sounds at those frequencies would psychoacoustically mask them. The problem with this approach is that, during any periods of time in a station's broadcast where there are no exiting sounds of sufficient loudness at those 10 frequencies for psychoacoustic masking to take place, the Nielsen PPM encoders have to stop sending their streams of 1's and 0's and wait for another moment in time to arrive where sufficiently loud sounds do exist at those frequencies to enable psychoacoustic masking once again. As soon as that happens, the encoders resume sending their 1's and 0's from where they left off. This process repeats indefinitely, but depending on how spectrally dense vs. open the station's audio is on average (imagine the spectral density of heavy metal versus speech), the opportunities for masking can be so few and far between that it can take minutes before even one iteration of a station's ID can be fully transmitted to listeners' PPM meters. Meaning that if any listener listens for less time than that, his meter doesn't log the station as having been listened to. Other listeners meanwhile might listen for as long as it takes for the full station ID to be conveyed a few times, but thwart their meters' ability to fully hear any of those iterations with intermittent background noises. So someone at a Telos Alliance sub-brand company called 25-Seven came up with the idea of creating a processor (the Voltair) that would apply noise-gated upwards compression to the 10 aforementioned ultra-thin frequency slices to make Nielsen's PPM encoders almost always see audio in those regions that's sufficiently loud for successful psychoacoustic masking. The result, as shown by this high-resolution close up of the Voltair's LCD display, is that its upwards compression amplifies so many psychoacoustically non-masking soft sounds so often that a PPM encoder can be tricked into near-continuous insertion, going from taking several minutes to send a station's complete ID message to just seconds.

But there's one small problem with that. Just as the ear perceives a continuous sinewave at one fixed frequency as "a tone," it perceives a dramatically amplified ultra-thin slice of spectrum during speech or music (i.e. 0.95 kHz to 1.05 kHz being 12 dB louder than everything on either side) as something akin to a variable-amplitude tone, or in audio processing parlance, filter ringing -- the sort caused when a phase-linear bandpass, bandstop, lowpass, or highpass filter has a vertical skirt/slope. And this, getting back to your "apt misidentification" of Voltair as low bitrate lossy audio, is why the Voltair sounds so similar to a bit-starved lossy codec. Lossy codecs also use razor thin, vertically-skirted EQ bands; only in their cases, to de-amplify (down to -infinity dB) all audio at specific frequencies for specific lengths of time (i.e. the sounds the codec believes would be inaudible anyway due to psychoacoustic masking, and that can therefore be silenced to save bits). Lossy codec artifacting sounds like "tinkling ringing" because it consists of thousands of these micro-thin slices of the audio spectrum being notched out by vertically-skirted bandstops that turn on and off at light speed. Voltair, by comparison, sounds like "reverberant ringing under a damper" because it consists of 10 equally thin vertically-skirted slices of the spectrum having their audio dramatically upward compressed (loudened/thickened) with a gate to keep the compression from pulling up the noise floor itself.

Here are spectral images of your KOA and KHOW airchecks:

https://files.catbox.moe/0q4on4.jpg
https://files.catbox.moe/toch0f.jpg

Note the 10 "Freddie Kruger claw marks," as I phrased it in my 2022 thread, throughout each one. They're identical to those seen in the KFI spectral image in that thread's first post (direct link).

For a real eye-popping visual of this stuff, take a look at this audio clip I recently grabbed from KLAC 570 AM while they were airing baseball. Baseball game crowd noise, when the announcers aren't talking, has a very soft, gaussian spectral distribution that allows Thor's hammer tracks, as laid down by their Voltair, to stand out like sore thumbs. I put CoolEdit's spectral view into "HD mode" for this one. Just ... yuck!

https://files.catbox.moe/yxdzx5.jpg
https://files.catbox.moe/cpsk4d.jpg (zoomed)
https://files.catbox.moe/29syen.flac (source audio) (I widened the bandwidth 24 seconds in)

If you're interested comparing my market with yours, here is a three and a half minute audio tour of several FM stations in Los Angeles. I simply punched in their frequencies at random, off the top of my head. See which of them you can hear the Voltair in. The stations in this clip, in order, are KYSR, KPWR, KNX, KOST, KCBS, KLOS, KRTH, and KUSC, and I included deliniating beeps. Hint: only two of them are free of Voltair, to both my ears and CoolEdit's spectral viewer. (The amount of amplification a Voltair box performs is user-configurable, so each station has an audibly unique amount.)

https://files.catbox.moe/5junzv.flac

Quite possibly the worst instance of Voltair I've heard, ever, is currently coming from KYLA 92.7 FM here in Los Angeles. These people seem to have their Voltair turned up past 11:

https://files.catbox.moe/vbyw1i.flac

In closing, this stuff leaves me speechless. I never believed I'd witness the broadcast industry so masochistically trashing its own audio, and so systematically. Almost the entire dial is unlistenable to me now, and the bitter irony is, it has become that way out of their desperation for listener metrics. Although there's a tonal similarity of this stuff to lossy codecs, I think that Voltair cranked up high actually sounds worse. The filter ringing produced by bit starved lossy codecs is spectrally diffused and impulse-like. But the sound Voltair creates is fixed at 10 frequencies and smears itself across the audio temporally. So in a sense, it sounds like having an entire discordant chord worth of tinnitus. The sheer egregiousness of that, going by the KYLA example alone, or that unbelievable KLAC spectralgram, should be enough to start having licenses called into question. Don't you think?
Wow! I'm impressed.

Brevity is not my thing certainly, but wow! I've never had an overspill into two posts like that. #goals 😂
 
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Wow, talk about a War and Peace post of techno-babble gobbledygook.
Apparently, you never have listened to AM radio? How about FM during the loudness wars of the 80's? Excessively processing radio audio has documented negative effects on listening. This nuanced horse sh*t about perceived digital artifacts appears to have way fewer negative impacts on time spent listening than excessive audio processing.
Reminds me of KS95 on FM, their awful processing or whatever is causing it to sound like that has driven me away to KTCZ 97.1 and BACK to KDWB, both HD-1 and HD-2...it just sounds terrible.

If you grew up in the CD/MP3 changeover generations, you're more tolerant of artifacts, but 320kbps CBR or VBR "Insane" on Audacity are the go-tos for most of my normal listening, except for my most treasured albums, which are Hi-Res FLAC. At least they used to be, before Spotify and Radio both took over my listening more.
 
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Voltair does not encode. It simply enhances the masking frequencies so that encoding happens more often. Even if you use Nielsen's PPM encoding app in a software driven processor, many/most will want to further enhance the audio to make the encoder activate more times a minute.
I'm sorry, I'm kind more of a listener, what is "Voltaire"?
 
her than 19 kHz pilot tones now being inaudible to me, my hearing is quite fine, tinnitus-free, and at least as lossy codecs go, I've been keenly aware of and able to discern the sound of the damage they do to audio since first experimenting with l3enc and mp3enc in the mid-late 1990s, in my teens. There is nothing illusory about this stuff. Some people can't hear it at all, others can hear it only at low bitrates, and still others can hear it at all but the highest ones -- and that's regardless of age. It's the nature of psychoacoustic modeling. It tries to hide itself, and it succeeds with most people but fails with the rest. If you're one of the people it succeeds against, be thankful you can't hear it rather than implying that those who can just have faulty ears. Because for those who can hear it, many sources of digital audio now suck, and the last thing we need is more grief. With lossless fallbacks like CDs fading away, it's not an enjoyable time to be a music lover for us.
I used to be able to hear CRT monitors & TVs when I was a tween and teen, but I don't think any receiver I had ever responded IRL so high that I could hear the 19 kHz tone.

There is FLAC, ALAC & MQA still. 96khz, 32-bit Surround Sound can be accomplished, but the files are pretty large.
 
I can kinda understand why would commercial stations crank up the Voltair, but why does EMF do it? As a non-commercial operator relying on listener donations, they don't need to care that much about their ratings.
They probably just want to know how many listeners they have, like the commercial stations? KLOVE and Aire 1 type station are more like Heart and Absolute in the UK than a typical US station experience.
 
In Highschool I asked my French teacher once (she was a CBS FM listener) if I were to put s station like that on AM would she listen? She said no She was also a button pusher and said pushing the tuning knob in for AM (Delco Chevrolet radio) was one movement too much.
It apparently disrupted her "pattern" (CBS FM, NEW FM, K-Rock, Lite FM) She was NOT a radio geek. The only AM she had programmed was WFAN 660, WCBS 880 and WINS aM), the latter two just for traffic 660 was for the Mets games, nothing else. She was a child of the 1960s.

This was 1990. Imagine now!!!!
I break up my pattern for in Emergencies, WCCO has been THE station to get info from around here for generations.

I would for sports, but our more popular Sports Station is on 100.3 (in HD) and on KQQL-HD3/96.7FM. KSTP is on 94.5-HD2 as well.

AM 950, KTNF has a lot of shows I like, and the other side has 1130/103.5, 1280/107.5, and 1570, my fav. show on there has nothing to do with politics though, WCCO has similar content on Sunday evenings 😂👻

I stopped listening to the 770 signal for Radio K and mostly flip between the 104.5 and 100.7 signals, if AM 950 had an FM translator with 103.5 type reception, I'd probably be a single band listener again. Even WCCO is on KMNB-HD2.

If the program only exists live on an AM frequency and they make their stream too hard to get, I'll break my pattern.

If my fav. hosts move stations, I'll follow them to their new frequencies, if it's AM, then it's AM, talk doesn't need high-fidelity anyway.
 
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