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How many radio stations play songs with false endings to them in LA

Audiophiles have always been outliers.

But unlike people who choose to make themselves outliers, audiophiles shouldn't be so readily discounted. They are just people who were born with 20/10 hearing instead of 20/20 hearing. People seem to dismiss or poke fun them as if it were a matter of their being pretentious. To those, I can only suggest imagining what the constant sensory input overload experienced by autistics feels like -- both emotionally and discomfort-wise. The imperfections average people barely hear (or register only subconsciously) stand out to us vividly and actually become sources of stress when regularly subjected to them.

Low bitrate streamers can literally pain us, and often our only choice is often to simply turn them off. And I guarantee were it possible for me to wave magic wands at their ears and make them capable of hearing what audiophiles do, at the level audiophiles do, they would go instantly red-faced, and very humbly and apologetically dial up all their streaming and broadcasting bitrates, stop clipping all their masterings, etc. The thing is, none of us would be angry at them for having been unable to hear what we were hearing all along. But it really begins to grate and degrade the quality of our lives when there are so many people in decision-making roles who can't hear what we're hearing, who won't even consider the possibility they're doing that to others, and who will make no concessions on their behalves. For the video- and audiophiles of this world, it's very much like living in a wheelchair in the age before the Americans with Disabilities Act. "Enjoy the stairs, freak!" I really wish this could change. At least in the old days, incompetence (things like clipping) often generated sounds that people could acoustically interpret as warmth, color, and character if they weren't outright extreme. But no amount of codec noise, digital clipping, overdone Voltair-style watermarking, etc., has any "silver linings" like those to hide behind to help make the medicine go down.

Have you been to an AES meeting? They are your people. People SAY they care about quality. What they DO is often very different.

Perhaps in spirit, but not ultimately because of that last part. I have made a habit throughout my life of contacting streamers, big and small, with gentle taps on the shoulder and encouragements concerning mistakes they were making, and things they could improve. I've gotten into technical and philosophical e-mail debates over streaming bitrates with everyone from Scott Mason (RIP) to the people behind obscure and eclectic streams (note the 320 kbit/s stream now on KEGR.org's front page?). I contact anyone I see streaming in very low bitrate MP3 to champion AAC to them (or at least HE-AAC), offering elaborate background information with links on how old and established AAC itself has already become so they're assured switching won't cost them listeners. I point out codecs accidentally set to mono, and mono program streamers (e.g. old time radio folks) accidentally using stereo, needlessly increasing their audible artifacting levels due to bits being wasted coding tape head phase skews, etc. In the end, 75% of the people I make contact with don't make any changes. But the 25% who do feel like pure victories. Which makes it all worthwhile. My favorite "get" is still KROQ HD2. I grew up on that music in addition to oldies, and yet KROQ was streaming it at just 64 kbit/s ... a nightmare for my ears, given the value of the content to me individually. The e-mails I wound up exchanging with Scott and their PD were friendly in both directions, but seemed to reach a general impasse in the end, much like, and for the same reasons as, audiophile talking points aren't very well-received here. ;) However, to my delight, about a month later, their bitrate mysteriously jumped out of nowhere to 128 kbit/s and the improvement was immediately noticeable. I was ecstatic, and you can still hear it that way at http://stream.abacast.net/direct/audacy-kroqhd2aac-imc to this day.

I think that if we all made gentle and persistent efforts to communicate and reason with the decision-makers out there about quality issues, the victories we scored, however few and far between, would collectively contribute to putting a sequence of events into motion that would lead to a broad victory later down the line. Allowing the mediocrity of the masses' standards and tastes to suck away our morale so we become paralyzed, passive sufferers of their own retinas' and auditory sensory receptors' limitations does us no justice, and actually leads to the creation of a world where future up-and-coming audiophiles and even musicians may never chance to encounter the finer things that would've induced and inspired them into seeking careers as technological and artistic excellence-makers for the next generation. Who, after all, would ever be induced to become a great chef if we collectively let all good food vanish from civilization through getting lost in the feelings of futility created by staring at Cheetos' sales figures?

Consider that 30 million people PAY to receive Sirius. Some of them complain about the audio quality but the programming matters more than the bitrate. That's the driving force these days. Content is king, so they tell me.

The corollary is: imagine that same content being 1:1 available on a second platform with minimum 256 kbit/s Opus encoding. All the audiophiles would switch, instantly. That would get noticed by the techie and power user demographic, which would soon follow. Then the masses would suddenly perceive that elements of "the technological in crowd" were switching, and the great sucking, siphoning sound of Sirius going bankrupt would commence.

Ordinary people put up with inferior things because they either don't notice the difference, or simply prioritize other passions in their life. But they sure follow leaders. Those of us with "the ears to hear" and strong passions for quality can create movements if we push hard enough.
 
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I think that if we all made gentle and persistent efforts to communicate and reason with the decision-makers out there about quality issues, the victories we scored, however few and far between, would collectively contribute to putting a sequence of events into motion that would lead to a broad victory later down the line.

Sounds like wishful thinking. My view is simple: You can do whatever you want in the privacy of your home. You can make the audio better, you can remix or remaster your own record collection, and you can enjoy it all you want. What you're talking about is getting profit-making companies to change what they do to satisfy you and a small number of people. That's not going to happen. I trust you're old enough to understand why.
 
Sounds like wishful thinking. My view is simple: You can do whatever you want in the privacy of your home. You can make the audio better, you can remix or remaster your own record collection, and you can enjoy it all you want. What you're talking about is getting profit-making companies to change what they do to satisfy you and a small number of people. That's not going to happen. I trust you're old enough to understand why.

Yet so many different people, groups, races, ad nauseam, who were in worse-off positions in the past than they're in today, got to where they are now by taking their wishful thinking seriously and making it a reality.

Also, I am not talking about profit-making companies servicing a minority. I am talking about profit-making companies making changes that bring in a minority without driving off anyone already among their clientele. Any move that brings up the numbers, by even a little, is a good move, since even small improvements, in concert, raise them significantly. I mean, why would a program director see it as worthwhile to tweak his playlist to raise his station from a 4.0 to a 4.2 but blow off a minority that, if able to listen at all, or more often, or for longer, would raise it to a 4.4? Hasn't radio always been in the business of "every little thing counts?" Obsessing over liners, sweepers, jingles, processing, voiceover talent, the ways live talent run their morning shows, the services those morning shows buy their jokes and bits from, the exact songs in their playlists, the exact proportions and timings of when and where they play, and so forth? Why go through all that trouble and then allow a loose end to persist that can drive off even a minority of your listeners and affect TSL among those who don't leave? Competitive radio is a detail-obsessed business and it's just a mystery to me how certain new details that have appeared in our time (like Voltair and bit starvation) are so commonly getting overlooked. It reminds me of how everyone just accepted the sound of hard diode clipping of pre-emphasised treble until Bob Orban hit the scene and snapped them out of it.

Edit - Just to add one more thought. Real audiophiles have historically abstained from most broadcast radio on account of the very kinds of processing I brought up in entering this thread. So I wouldn't even go as far as calling myself a true audiophile on account of my greatly enjoying that kind of processing when done well. I see all this simply as a matter of wanting broadcast standards to not fall to standards that are the opposite of audiophilia. I only feel like I'm an audiophile compared to that quality threshold. Compared to the guys with $100,000 speaker systems, I would be a dilettante and just one of the rabble. :)
 
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Edit - Just to add one more thought. Real audiophiles have historically abstained from most broadcast radio on account of the very kinds of processing I brought up in entering this thread.

Yep, I know. As I said, you're welcome to do whatever you want in your own home.
 
Yep, I know. As I said, you're welcome to do whatever you want in your own home.

Naturally. I simply wish the industry would address certain shortcomings so I could include listening to HD radio or internet streams among the things I can enjoyably do in my own home. :)

My apologies again to everyone for the diversion to this thread. Back to the false endings, then?
 
I’m just guessing, but could it be that some stations don’t have enough bandwidth to stream in anything higher than 64kbps? Also I second the praise of Scott Mason, he was a great engineer & a very nice guy.
 
I’m just guessing, but could it be that some stations don’t have enough bandwidth to stream in anything higher than 64kbps?

That's certainly the case with Sirius, and they've been very forthcoming about that. Some other companies (including Spotify) have offered to provide higher bitrates, but for more money, and a lot of people simply don't want to pay extra for better quality. There was a time when people had to pay $1 more for stereo albums.

 
radiofan2023 - I suppose if they're with a data center that's overcharging them versus current fair market bandwidth values, that could be so. However, the bar has been raised so much in the core, tier 1 transit arena during the past twenty years by video streaming -- and especially by the endless HD/4K streaming in the last five, that upgrading to the bitrates associated with quality audio would amount to one extra snowflake in a snowstorm.

There's also this. Most stations have device apps and web apps. Or they refer listeners to turnkey listening platforms like tunein. Station owners, in conjunction with the developers behind those applications, could easily set their interfaces up so default playback came from a 32-64 kbit/s endpoint, while for the more discerning listeners, a small icon could be tapped or clicked to switch between that bitrate and a superb-sounding one. The great majority would never bother with it. But if it started out reading something like "48 kbit/s [v]" (with the ([v] being a traditional-looking dropdown button), those thinking about the inferior sound quality they were discerning would immediately take note, click it, and perhaps find a second, 256 kbit/s option. Presto: even with the costs of higher bandwidth being minimal today versus two decades ago, you successfully eliminate 95% of whatever extra costs there are, because only the audiophiles switch to 256.

About Scott, wasn't he behind KCBS-FM's processing during its early Jack years? That was my second favorite processing haven in those days. I still remember listening to them experimenting with it (seemingly for months) after the format premiered. One particular day, while listening through a high powered vintage system (big wattage), Rockwell's Somebody's Watching Me came up and the processing I heard for the duration of that song somehow defied anything I had ever experienced before. They must have been experimenting with incredibly aggressive levels of processing, but the "vvvhhmmm" effect at the beginning of that song alone made it seem like my entire livingroom had been swallowed by and was stuck in the throat of a 50 foot tall purring cat. Crazy sensation! :)

(edited for typos)
 
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That's certainly the case with Sirius, and they've been very forthcoming about that.

I was reading a couple of threads about this just yesterday:


I can somewhat sympathize with their plight, since it was the FCC that handed them such narrow slices of orbital bandwidth. But the way people are complaining that their internet streams are just as awful really took me by surprise. They don't have to be chinchy there.

Before one of my relatives canceled their linear cable TV subscription, I spent a day analyzing the web browser traffic going between Firefox and Spectrum's TV Everywhere web app in order to figure out how to spoof the authentication tokens and cookies necessary to be granted access to all its underlying HLS/m3u8 streams. I wanted to make a massive "aircheck" of MusicChoice, since I figured with the way things were going in the cable business, I might never have another chance. So there I was with an elaborate series of batch scripts, managing ten simultaneous instances of ffmpeg each ripping five or so individual MusicChoice HLS streams 1:1 to disk for something like a week straight. A few days with one group of channels, a few days with another group, etc. And I was amazed to see that all their streams were actually very high quality. I don't think I saw anything less than 256 kbit/s AAC. What a treat and a breath of fresh air that was! I used to occasionally rip MusicChoice channels right off the QAM channels through my old Motorola 6416 STB's firewire port. What I saw through that route, ten years prior to my web stream ripping expedition, was almost as good. So at least they're one company that cares about the quality of their streams.

Some other companies (including Spotify) have offered to provide higher bitrates, but for more money, and a lot of people simply don't want to pay extra for better quality. There was a time when people had to pay $1 more for stereo albums.

I'm one. That just feels wrong. Like cable companies (speaking of which) when they used to charge extra for the HD versions of even the OTA channels they carried.

As for how stereo records used to cost extra, at least that could have theoretically been justified by the fact you were receiving a superior product. In the case of cable companies that degrade existing HD to SD without you paying more for what's already coming from the transmitter or satellite downlink, or streaming platforms that remove quality that's technically in the source material unless you pay extra to hear it, that's an entirely different moral construct, one I wouldn't want to reward. That's just an invitation to switch to a competitor.
 
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Presto: even with the costs of higher bandwidth being minimal today versus two decades ago, you successfully eliminate 95% of whatever extra costs there are, because only the audiophiles switch to 256.

Regardless, the companies are not going to eat that expense, whatever it is. If you want personalized service, you have to pay extra. Otherwise you join the hoi palloi. Call it a luxury tax,
I was with an elaborate series of batch scripts, managing ten simultaneous instances of ffmpeg each ripping five or so individual MusicChoice HLS streams 1:1 to disk for something like a week straight.

Cable radio is a different puppy, with parameters set by the cable company.
 
Regardless, the companies are not going to eat that expense, whatever it is.

KROQ did.

And if increased listening cancels it out, or beyond, they win.

Cable radio is a different puppy, with parameters set by the cable company.

Music Choice's bitrates are determined by the encoders at their New York headquarters. They provide a single master mux by satellite sized right out of the box to fit a standard 6 MHz cable QAM channel. Each stream in that mux uses custom MPEG video running at somewhere around 1 frame/second to make it all fit. The carriage agreements allow MSOs to exclude certain streams from their channel line-ups, but they are forbidden from re-compressing or altering them in any way. Different cable companies are known for different quality standards and also for running arbitrarily adjusted compressor/limiters on the outputs of every satellite IRD in their racks. As several of their streams target critical listeners (e.g. classical), they did not random cable company technician paw prints on randomly-chosen processors/encoders to generate floods of complaints from listeners.

I don't know for a fact that they have the same requirement for the "TV Everywhere" platforms the MSOs run online, but I can't imagine them giving them any more latitude to hose things up.
 
When? I think you said it was over 20 years ago under different ownership.
You blanket implied "the companies," so what difference would that make? It happened to be under CBS at the time, which was just another corporate monolith as cost-conscious as any other one then or now.
Music Choice is owned by a group of cable companies.
Three cable companies plus Motorola, Microsoft, Sony, and EMI. The latter two are labels, and the middle two are hardware/software companies. Somewhere in that mix they found people who understand quality and put them in charge of the encoders and carriage agreements, evidently.
 
You blanket implied "the companies," so what difference would that make?

It was a different time. CBS had an R&D department. The new owners don't.

Somewhere in that mix they found people who understand quality and put them in charge of the encoders and carriage agreements, evidently.

If companies that owned record labels also owned radio stations (as they did between 1926 and 1988), perhaps things would be different.
 
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