In a future filled with electric cars, AM radio may be left behind (off-topic)

[DMK]

Apologies if this really belongs on a national board, but I know there are a lot of opinions about the local AM dial and this article could impact local radio.

In a Future Filled With Electric Cars, AM Radio May Be Left Behind

The dashboard staple could be going the way of manual-crank windows and car ashtrays as electric vehicles begin to grab more of the U.S. marketplace.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[guruofradio]

This is the reason heritage News/Talk stations from LA to NY now are simulcasting on a full market FM signal. You keep the long-time AM fans and bring in the younger FM fans or those that can no longer recieve AM in their cars, or won't put up with the inferior signal quality. Taking non-performing music stations like Alternative 92.3 in NY now simulcasting 1010 AM WINS or like 97.1 FM in LA now simulcasting KNX makes a great deal of financial sense as well. The move protects high revenue, solid performing AM stations and has become very common last few years.

 

[TheBigA]

The article may have been in the Seattle Times, but it was originally in the New York Times.

It's predicated on the idea that everyone is buying electric cars. Not sure that's true yet.

The author didn't interview anyone at the FCC. Preservation of the public airwaves is their responsibility. Their solution to the AM issue was to license FM translators. That says all you need to know.

 

[fordranger797]

I’m not a fan of electric cars, and will probably never own one. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who also are not chomping at the bit to get themselves a new Tesla. With that being said, I can definitely see how electrical noise would be a problem when you’re surrounded by electricity. I wonder if the the big 50KW signals could overcome the noise floor that these vehicles create, or if this issue is limited to smaller signals.

 

[TheBigA]

I wonder if the the big 50KW signals could overcome the noise floor that these vehicles create, or if this issue is limited to smaller signals.

The problem is on the receiver side, and the FCC is also in charge of the receivers. The article points out that the noise is overcome by better shielding, but manufacturers don't want to spend the money.

 

[bobdavcav]

Can't the FCC mandate noise filtering in at least certain circumstances? It sure seems like they need to start enforcing that if they can to try and relieve some of these issues. A good example is the TV in my parents' bedroom. Whenever that's on, I pretty much can't listen to AM, because unless the signal is solid, there's a loud buzzing that drowns everything else out.

 

[Kelly A]

I’m not a fan of electric cars, and will probably never own one. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who also are not chomping at the bit to get themselves a new Tesla. With that being said, I can definitely see how electrical noise would be a problem when you’re surrounded by electricity. I wonder if the the big 50KW signals could overcome the noise floor that these vehicles create, or if this issue is limited to smaller signals.

It's not the electricity in the batteries itself, that's DC. It's the vehicle motor speed controller(s) that generate the most noise. Speed controllers are essentially a series of solid state switches that vary the speed and direction of the motor by switching current on and off at a rapid rate.

 

[Bongwater]

This was brought up on another post somewhere. A senator sent a letter to EV manufacturers to include AM radio (likely on behalf of the NAB-they don't write these things out of sheer benevolence.) A similar letter to car makers begging for AM inclusion was also sent in Australia because FM/DAB signals, in spite of many FMs there running 250,000 watts, are hard to get outside all the suburbs of larger cities. AM can reach deeper into the Outback. Alaska is another area where AM is more vital than FM

Point is car manufacturers really want to phase out all terrestrial radio (including FM, even with HD) altogether. The juicy younger end of the consumer auto market want streaming goodies and consider all terrestrial radio a dinosaur medium. And they get what they want. And car makers want the motherboard space in the infotainment thing for more digital features. Because that's what sells. The manufacturers think the streaming radio portals will inevitably take terrestrial radio's place. And with the rise of streaming (those 0.1 streaming ratings aren't forever, to say nothing of accurate overall), they appear to be right. Mobile data caps are a thing of the past. And streaming radio doesn't take much of it.

There's a million reasons to argue against it. For example, emergencies. But the increasingly younger majority of the consumer market will have the last word. There's no fighting fate.

There's also a million reasons to completely understand it. This isn't 1983. And all things change-including how we get radio. Gen-Z are bigger than the Millennials. Their average age is 24 (and now vastly outnumber the remaining Boomers.) My kids are Gen-Z. And they're all taking over. So learn to love their non-binary weirdness. It's here to stay.

Brand new portable radios of any selection can only be found online. Walmart only has old stock Walkman-types and a pocket radio. All with an archeological grade layer of dust on the blister packaging. And couldn't find any at all in my local Fred Meyer. It's another sign of the times.

And how old is your average terrestrial radio RF engineer these days? I saw a recent picture of an SBE picnic. Just count the graying/balding heads. I mean, how is terrestrial radio going to roll over to the next generation at this rate? Who's going to fill their shoes? Ham radio folks? That's another aging tech that very few young people are interested in.

I'm not dancing on graves here. It's heartbreaking to watch another station surrender it's license because their owners can't make a go of it. And that's also another reason the car makers want AM gone. They watch these trends too.

But there will come a time in the not too distant future when even the terrestrial FM transmitters will no longer be sustainable and become another expense on the chopping block. It's a slow creep now. But that's how change begins. And it will accelerate.

 

[TheBigA]

Point is car manufacturers really want to phase out all terrestrial radio (including FM, even with HD) altogether.

Can you provide a source for this?

 

[Mikey Radio]

This was brought up on another post somewhere. A senator sent a letter to EV manufacturers to include AM radio (likely on behalf of the NAB-they don't write these things out of sheer benevolence.)

This is actually about the 4th different Radio Discussions thread that's been posted about this same exact topic over the past few days...2 different threads about the letter this Senator wrote, and a few others about a NY Times article that appeared over the weekend.

 

[fordranger797]

And how old is your average terrestrial radio RF engineer these days? I saw a recent picture of an SBE picnic. Just count the graying/balding heads. I mean, how is terrestrial radio going to roll over to the next generation at this rate? Who's going to fill their shoes? Ham radio folks? That's another aging tech that very few young people are interested in.

For better or for worse, I would still like to get involved with broadcast engineering. Though it’s not an easy industry to get into.

 

[Bongwater]

For better or for worse, I would still like to get involved with broadcast engineering. Though it’s not an easy industry to get into.

Depends on how desperate things get, it will soon be easy get into. I don't know what the discrimination is even for when these RF guys, even now, are desperate for young blood. And people like you are hard to find.

 

[davideduardo]

This was brought up on another post somewhere. A senator sent a letter to EV manufacturers to include AM radio (likely on behalf of the NAB-they don't write these things out of sheer benevolence.)

Most likely: a broadcaster or group with HQ in the senator's state pushed him to act.

 

[Bongwater]

This is actually about the 4th different Radio Discussions thread that's been posted about this same exact topic over the past few days...2 different threads about the letter this Senator wrote, and a few others about a NY Times article that appeared over the weekend.

It's a wake up call. It's worse than it looks. And outside senior citizens who don't buy new cars at the rate of younger people, AM is toast. Just recently, the owner of two major Honolulu stations (including Pat O'Day's former KORL "Channel 65", now KPNP) and KKNE 940, which played traditional Hawaiian music surrendered their licenses. That's two AM stations at once. And in Hawaii, where AM covers most of the islands (I think that's why KSSK is simulcast on 590 for the benefit of island hopping boaters), that's kind of a big deal.

 

[davideduardo]

It's a wake up call. It's worse than it looks. And outside senior citizens who don't buy new cars at the rate of younger people, AM is toast. Just recently, the owner of two major Honolulu stations (including Pat O'Day's former KORL "Channel 65", now KPNP) and KKNE 940, which played traditional Hawaiian music surrendered their licenses. That's two AM stations at once. And in Hawaii, where AM covers most of the islands (I think that's why KSSK is simulcast on 590 for the benefit of island hopping boaters), that's kind of a big deal.

The AMs in Honolulu do not cover the"most of the islands". In fact, when 870 tried to run 50 kw across the strait to serve several islands at once, and it was a horrible failure. The Honolulu FMs don't even cover all of Oahu due to terrain.

The problem is that once the FCC opened the whole FM band in Hawai'i (the military held half of it for decades), and because there are no adjacent markets to suck op allocations, Honolulu got way too many FMs and the high number of AMs began falling off. There are now 33 stations in the Honolulu market, and less than $30 million in revenue.

KSSK takes 28% of all the market revenue, and there are only 8 other stations that bill over a million.

The revenue in the market is relatively low, the cost of operation is high and the fact that it is in a tropical climate zone limits AM coverage significantly due to high natural static levels.

 

[Kelly A]

The AMs in Honolulu do not cover the"most of the islands". In fact, when 870 tried to run 50 kw across the strait to serve several islands at once, and it was a horrible failure. The Honolulu FMs don't even cover all of Oahu due to terrain.

The problem is that once the FCC opened the whole FM band in Hawai'i (the military held half of it for decades), and because there are no adjacent markets to suck op allocations, Honolulu got way too many FMs and the high number of AMs began falling off. There are now 33 stations in the Honolulu market, and less than $30 million in revenue.

Post pandemic, that number is estimated to be less than $15 million for a total revenue pie.

I was over at our condo on the big island last month, and had the chance to visit with a group manager and GM at one of the local TV stations. It's really a tough business environment for FM and TV, and just like here in the lower 48, AM stations are really struggling. None of this has anything to do with automakers.

The revenue in the market is relatively low, the cost of operation is high and the fact that it is in a tropical climate zone limits AM coverage significantly due to high natural static levels.

Yeah it's really tough. Many stations are running on full automation with only critical staff like Sales.

 

[Kelly A]

Point is car manufacturers really want to phase out all terrestrial radio (including FM, even with HD) altogether.

That's not true. Auto manufacturers are always very concerned about giving the consumer the best in-vehicle entertainment experience possible. Modern vehicle tuners are on a single SDR chip which doesn't cost them that much to turn features on. That said; if consumers aren't interested in listening to AM for example, then why even turn that feature on? Because when some Gen-Z stumbles upon the AM button, and get blasted with noise or terrible sounding audio by comparison with other options, that potentially creates an unpleasant experience to be avoided.

The juicy younger end of the consumer auto market want streaming goodies and consider all terrestrial radio a dinosaur medium. And they get what they want.

That's why they're the customer.

And car makers want the motherboard space in the infotainment thing for more digital features. Because that's what sells.

True statement, but only stating the obvious that manufacturers are in the business of selling their vehicles.

The manufacturers think the streaming radio portals will inevitably take terrestrial radio's place.

I know people in that industry, and have never heard that statement.

And with the rise of streaming (those 0.1 streaming ratings aren't forever, to say nothing of accurate overall), they appear to be right. Mobile data caps are a thing of the past. And streaming radio doesn't take much of it.

Listen to the disclaimer at the end of the latest Verizon or T-Mobile radio ads. "Unlimited Data means could read data speed of 2G". That's not enough to stream audio.

There's a million reasons to argue against it. For example, emergencies. But the increasingly younger majority of the consumer market will have the last word. There's no fighting fate.

And those youngsters should get off your lawn too.

 

[bobdavcav]

Re: KSSK. The 590 signal isn't great even on the north shore. I can't quite figure out why they're still simulcasting, since they're also on a full market FM. If I were them, I would have probably split the programming on that years ago, but I'm not sure what else to do with 590, and that's probably why it hasn't happened yet.

 

[davideduardo]

Post pandemic, that number is estimated to be less than $15 million for a total revenue pie.

I was over at our condo on the big island last month, and had the chance to visit with a group manager and GM at one of the local TV stations. It's really a tough business environment for FM and TV, and just like here in the lower 48, AM stations are really struggling. None of this has anything to do with automakers.

Yeah it's really tough. Many stations are running on full automation with only critical staff like Sales.

Add in that the conductivity of even ancient lava-formed land is particularly bad. It is like hardened sand.

 

[boombox4]

Right now EVs are little more than posh new toys for rich people. They are the future, obviously. But that 'future' is probably over a decade away. Because of cost, among other factors. But it will happen.

Eventually, the car radio will probably be replaced by a screen with nothing but content apps. This station will have an app, that station will have an app, alongside the usual streaming service apps, video and audio podcast and v-log apps, and they all will be running irritating ads on your dashboard that you won't be able to skip, while they're mining your car for data they can use to sell you more stuff.

Every now and then they will update, and change everything on your screen, and you will be happy.

From what I understand, a lot of the newer car entertainment centers have something like that now, minus the irritating ads, and updating.

Where there are screens available, there is revenue potential.