Is Dallas one of the youngest radio market in the US?

[andrewduong77]

Is Dallas one of the youngest radio market in the US? I'm asking because it seems like an AC like KVIL seems to struggle a lot in this market for more than a decade. It seems like there aren't much 35-54 female listeners in the DFW market to support an AC like WLTW in NY, KOST in LA, KODA in Houston, KMGL in OKC, or how about WLYF in Miami. I'm not sure if those stations do very well in persons 25-54 though, perhaps they're okay in 25-54, but I can see that they do pretty well in persons 12+.

How much younger is the average demo by age in DFW compare to the cities I mentioned above that made it so difficult for KVIL to cater listeners with a 1970-present AC format they had before Fall 2011 and a 1980-present AC format they had between Fall 2011 - May 2013. It also looks like they didn't do well with their (Best Variety...90s, 2k, and Today) Fresh AC/Hot AC 1990-present format though.

Do you think a Soft AC like KIFM in San Diego would do well in Dallas-Ft. Worth? Especially the way KVIL had gone in the past year. Besides the fact we have an Adult Standards on KDMX-HD2. Not to mention that San Diego also has a CBS AC KYXY that actually still has a 1980-present AC format. I can see that KIFM does pretty well in 12+, but I heard they often ranked around 15th in 25-54 though. How about an AC like WLYF in Miami in Dallas?

About me:

I'm a 22-year-old male who usually enjoys listening to music by Whitney Houston, Taylor Dayne, Mariah Carey, Elton John, Rod Stewart, Heart, Backstreet Boys, 'N Sync, James Ingram, and Cutting Crew alongside Ed Sheeran, Katy Perry, Demi Lovato, Imagine Dragons, American Authors, OneRepublic, John Legend, and Pompeii. I often stream KMGL, WLYF, WLMG, or WRVR on the TuneIn Radio app or WMGF or WLTW on the iHeartRadio app on my iPod Touch over Wi-Fi when I'm at home or at school. I have no data on my phone due to the fact that I'm on a pre-paid service plan, so I listen to KVIL or KJKK when I'm driving to school.

To summarize what I just said, I'm basically a 22-year-old guy who have an "old AC" taste in music and that I listen to music that 35-74 year-old female listeners listen to. (Why did I say 35-74? Well I like the way AC's sounded back in the 1990s up till now and that AC is a format intended to target listeners 35-54, and that 35-54 listeners in the 1990s is 55-74 now.) That's how old my music taste is. That explains why I brought this thread up. I guess by the time I reach my parents age as of now, Katy Perry is on KLUV and other Oldies/Classic Hits radio stations like KOMA, WCBS-FM, and KRTH. I've been a big fan of terrestrial radio for some time, but a decade or two from now, I probably loose myself with terrestrial radio. Anyone can relate?

My questions above: (If you guys can answer my questions above, I'll appreciate it very much)

1. Is Dallas one of the youngest radio market in the US?

2. How much younger is the average demo by age in DFW compare to the cities I mentioned above (New York, Los Angeles, Houston, Oklahoma City, and Miami)?

3. Do you think a Soft AC like KIFM in San Diego would do well in Dallas-Ft. Worth?

4. How about an AC like WLYF in Miami in Dallas?

5. Anyone can relate (to me based-on the last two paragraphs)?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Andrew: (May I call you Andrew?) I don't have the answers to your questions, but let me point you toward some markets that could rival the markets you have listed.

Someone recently pointed out to me something that should have been very obvious to me, but I was totally looking past. There is a group of cities in this country that some of us have not recognized as beging in a "club all of their own making!" I will probably leave some obvious members of the club out and I may include some that should be left out. But think with me. Austin, TX. Madison, WI. Ralleigh/Durham, NC. Boulder, CO. San Jose/Silicon Valley, CA. San Diego, CA. Houston, TX. Maybe Fayetteville, AR. Boston, MA.

What do these places have in common that is tying them together as a "club"? They all have major research oriented universities as one of their calling cards. And gathered around research universities you will find major corporations locating their own research operations (and maybe their corporate headquarters) to make use of the research professors as part time employees, and as funnels to make sure their corporation gets an advantage in the talent recruiting process to capture the best and brightest of the high-tech graduates. It was recently pointed out to me that these cities did not experience the economic downturn of the last 8 years in the same way that the rest of the country did. If I were going to search out markets well-seeded with YOUNG LISTENERS, I would take a look at the list I presented, and then extend the list. There are other cities that my belong on the list. Chicago? Atlanta and Athens, GA? Huntsville, AL?

 

[davideduardo]

Is Dallas one of the youngest radio market in the US? I'm asking because it seems like an AC like KVIL seems to struggle a lot in this market for more than a decade. It seems like there aren't much 35-54 female listeners in the DFW market to support an AC like WLTW in NY, KOST in LA, KODA in Houston, KMGL in OKC, or how about WLYF in Miami. I'm not sure if those stations do very well in persons 25-54 though, perhaps they're okay in 25-54, but I can see that they do pretty well in persons 12+.

http://www.usa.com/dallas-fort-worth-arlington-tx-area-population-and-races.htm shows Dallas a bit under the US median age at 33.5 vs. 37 nationally; most of the reason for the younger median age is the large and considerably younger Hispanic population.

Texas, as a whole, ahas a median age of just over 30. So it's not the age

That leaves us with an analysis of the competitive array. When we look at Women 25-54, we see KHKS, KLTY (which is the AC for many) KLPX, KRNB, and KVIL making up the top 5 with KSCS just behind it.

So part of the issue is that KLTY, with nearly double the share of KVIL, takes the bigger piece of the AC segment, while country is the "other" major contender for what might be AC shares in LA or Miami...

 

[andrewduong77]

http://www.usa.com/dallas-fort-worth-arlington-tx-area-population-and-races.htm shows Dallas a bit under the US median age at 33.5 vs. 37 nationally; most of the reason for the younger median age is the large and considerably younger Hispanic population.

Texas, as a whole, ahas a median age of just over 30. So it's not the age

Thank you very much for the data David. It makes perfect sense, you're definitely right.

Here's what else I found from the same site:

Median Age, US: 37.2
Median Age, Dallas: 33.5
Median Age, New York: 35.5
Median Age, Los Angeles: 35.1
Median Age, Houston: 33.2
Median Age, Oklahoma City: 34.6
Median Age, Miami: 39.8
Median Age, San Diego: 33.6
Median Age, Tampa: 41.2

Dallas is still almost the youngest leaning city out of the cities I mentioned above as I thought it would be, but by a little bit though. Not to mention the high amount of young Asian population alongside with the majority of the young Hispanic population.

Tampa and Miami have a much older median age than most of the other cities I mentioned above. Probably why WDUV/Tampa and WFEZ/Miami pulled decent 12+ numbers and also probably why WLYF pulled decent 12+ numbers as well with their hybrid Soft AC/AC format.

That leaves us with an analysis of the competitive array. When we look at Women 25-54, we see KHKS, KLTY (which is the AC for many) KLPX, KRNB, and KVIL making up the top 5 with KSCS just behind it.

So part of the issue is that KLTY, with nearly double the share of KVIL, takes the bigger piece of the AC segment, while country is the "other" major contender for what might be AC shares in LA or Miami...

David, you are correct. Unlike most other markets, Dallas has a pretty competitive CCM KLTY and often times, CCM is like another AC.

Many others pointed out that CBS tries to protect KVIL's sister KLUV which deters KVIL from success, but I couldn't agree with that completely since most of the markets I mentioned above also have a strong Classic Hits (even some of those markets have a Classic Hits co-owned with the AC). So, KLUV shouldn't be the reason for KVIL failure.

Some of the markets I mentioned above also have a strong country station or two, i.e. Oklahoma City, Houston, and San Diego.

 

[andrewduong77]

Andrew: (May I call you Andrew?) I don't have the answers to your questions, but let me point you toward some markets that could rival the markets you have listed.

Someone recently pointed out to me something that should have been very obvious to me, but I was totally looking past. There is a group of cities in this country that some of us have not recognized as beging in a "club all of their own making!" I will probably leave some obvious members of the club out and I may include some that should be left out. But think with me. Austin, TX. Madison, WI. Ralleigh/Durham, NC. Boulder, CO. San Jose/Silicon Valley, CA. San Diego, CA. Houston, TX. Maybe Fayetteville, AR. Boston, MA.

What do these places have in common that is tying them together as a "club"? They all have major research oriented universities as one of their calling cards. And gathered around research universities you will find major corporations locating their own research operations (and maybe their corporate headquarters) to make use of the research professors as part time employees, and as funnels to make sure their corporation gets an advantage in the talent recruiting process to capture the best and brightest of the high-tech graduates. It was recently pointed out to me that these cities did not experience the economic downturn of the last 8 years in the same way that the rest of the country did. If I were going to search out markets well-seeded with YOUNG LISTENERS, I would take a look at the list I presented, and then extend the list. There are other cities that my belong on the list. Chicago? Atlanta and Athens, GA? Huntsville, AL?

Yep I am Andrew, everybody calls me Andrew.

I see what you mean. I'm currently an Electrical Engineering Undergraduate at UT Arlington myself.

I like to compare population of the retirement community and the middle-aged community in the cities I mentioned above and the cities you mentioned above. Because the amount of people in the retirement community and the middle-aged community is what contributed to the success of the AC stations and Soft AC stations, especially in this era.

I have friends that went to my high school (Jack E. Singley Academy, formerly The Academy of Irving ISD) with me here in Irving that goes to UT Austin now and I also have friends that went to my community college (North Lake College, DCCCD) with me here in Irving that also transferred to UT Austin by now. Even some of my friends at North Lake are transferring to UH after the next couple of semesters.

Based-on the site USA.com, I found:

Median Age, Austin: 32.6
Median Age, Boston: 30.8
Median Age, Houston: 33.2

So you're right. Based-on your reasoning about these cities, they're are one of the youngest cities in the US.

Austin has a decent AC KKMJ, but it looks like that they're struggling really bad in 12+ numbers though and Austin also lost a Classic Hits a couple years ago which left a Classic Hits hole for the past couple of years in that market. Houston has a decent AC KODA and it's strong in 12+ numbers as well. Boston has a decent AC WMJX and it's strong in 12+ ratings as well and that it's also co-owned with Classic Hits WROR which is also doing good in 12+ ratings. Though Boston used to have two Classic Hits, the other being WODS owned by CBS which they later flipped to CHR in 2012.

In conclusion a younger market doesn't always have a less successful AC and an older market doesn't always have a more successful AC. So as a younger market doesn't always have a younger-leaning AC and an older market doesn't always have an older-leaning AC. So as a younger market doesn't always mean it doesn't have an AC and an older market doesn't always mean it has an AC. It really boils down to how the PD puts the playlist of the AC together or how much effort the PD puts into the programming of the AC.

 

[davideduardo]

Based-on the site USA.com, I found:

Median Age, Austin: 32.6
Median Age, Boston: 30.8
Median Age, Houston: 33.2

A word of caution: Austin at USA.com is Travis, Williamson and Hayes Counties. Houston is Brazoria, Ft. Bend and Harris Counties.

The radio market for Houston, called a Metro Survey Area, is made up of 11 counties. For Austin, it is 5 counties.

So the averages may be slightly... or in the case of the much larger Houston MSA... considerably different.

Boston on USA .com is just Essex County, which has only 700 thousand of the 4.7 million market population, so the figure is totally suspect and not accurate for the whole metro, which is considerably older.

Nielsen defines metros based on factors related to radio usage, commuting and such. While sometimes the radio MSA's are the same as the OMB definitions of Metropolitan Statistical Areas (and they confusingly share the same initials), they are frequently quite different.

 

[CTListener]

A word of caution: Austin at USA.com is Travis, Williamson and Hayes Counties. Houston is Brazoria, Ft. Bend and Harris Counties.

The radio market for Houston, called a Metro Survey Area, is made up of 11 counties. For Austin, it is 5 counties.

So the averages may be slightly... or in the case of the much larger Houston MSA... considerably different.

Boston on USA .com is just Essex County, which has only 700 thousand of the 4.7 million market population, so the figure is totally suspect and not accurate for the whole metro, which is considerably older.

That's bizarre, as none of Boston lies in Essex County. Boston is entirely in Suffolk County, and in an anomaly, it surrounds the city of Brookline, which is in Norfolk County, the rest of which lies to the south of Boston.

 

[andrewduong77]

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, I usually look out for that. I mainly take the metro analysis when it comes to cities like Austin and Houston except for cities like Boston and New York. This is why I also accounted the ERP and the HAAT of the most of the stations in the cities I'm looking at.

KKMJ in Austin is a C1 class station with 49kW @ 398m
KODA in Houston is a C class station with 95kW @ 585m
WMJX in Boston is a B class station with 21.5kW @ 235m
WLTW in New York is a B class station with 6kW @ 415m

So when I compare the AC in Austin and Houston, KKMJ in Austin has a 49kW signal @ 398m serving it's 5 counties in its metro area and KODA in Houston has a 95kW signal @ 585m serving it's 11 counties in its metro area. Although WMJX in Boston has a 21.5kW signal @ 235m that merely covers its metro area, besides itself. Same with WLTW in NY, it has a 6kW signal @ 415m that merely covers its metro area, besides itself.

So when I take the median age of radio listeners in Boston or NY, I would look at the city only, not the whole entire metro area. Thus, most of the full-power stations in those area would share a similar ERP and HAAT. This has to do with the FCC zoning for elected station classes. http://en.wikipedia.org/...

Going back to the Median Age I listed for Los Angeles above, it should have been 34.1 if I were to look at LA itself rather than its whole entire metro area on USA.com since KOST wouldn't cover the whole LA metro area fairly well with their 12.5kW signal @ 949m even though their local coverage borderline seems to almost cover the whole entire LA metro area on the radio-locator.com map.

 

[davideduardo]

Although WMJX in Boston has a 21.5kW signal @ 235m that merely covers its metro area, besides itself.

WMJX, which is a conforming B and the equivalent of 50 kw at 500 feet, covers the 6-county MSA quite well.

Same with WLTW in NY, it has a 6kW signal @ 415m that merely covers its metro area, besides itself.

WLTW is another conforming B, being the equivalent of 50 kw at 500 feet and it covers the entire 20 county / borough New York MSA well enough to consistently be the #1 station in the market. It also gets some ratings in adjacent markets.

So when I take the median age of radio listeners in Boston or NY, I would look at the city only, not the whole entire metro area.

That is an invalid premise. The New York and Boston full class B stations all cover the entire MSA (Metro Survey Area) well. So the entire market population is what should be used.

Going back to the Median Age I listed for Los Angeles above, it should have been 34.1 if I were to look at LA itself rather than its whole entire metro area on USA.com since KOST wouldn't cover the whole LA metro area fairly well with their 12.5kW signal @ 949m

While the HAAT of KOST is about 3,000 feet, the mountains "behind" the site bring down the average. KOST is about 5,000 feet or so above the LA Basin, and covers the entire LA market except for northeastern LA County (Lancaster / Palmdale) which none of the LA FMs cover well due to horizon shadowing.

The consistent #1 station in LA is KIIS, which is only 8 kw... but like KOST, it is on the top of Mt Wilson at over 5,000 feet and it covers everything needed.

KIIS, KOST and the other Mt Wilson FMs also have very usable signals in most of the Riverside / San Bernardino market, and some of them beat all but one or two of the local Inland Empire stations.

even though their local coverage borderline seems to almost cover the whole entire LA metro area on the radio-locator.com

The radio-locator maps are labeled "for entertainment use only" and should be used with extreme caution.

 

[Gregg.]

Andrew's original question is a good one... namely why do some markets just LOVE AC stations, and in some they struggle. Obviously when it comes to formats like Country, Urban or Latin, there are regional differences. But how different are Houston and Dallas? Nearly the same size population, both in Texas, similar make up of age, ethnicity, etc. So why does KODA Houston do so well, often #1, and why does KVIL struggle? Yes, the Christian AC format on KLTY does steal listeners from KVIL. But in Houston, Christian AC KSBJ is 100,000 watts, programmed locally (not a K-Love syndicated format). They're at #7 while KODA is #2. So KSBJ doesn't seem to hurt KODA as much as KVIL is hurt by Christian AC.

How about Minneapolis, the largest market with NO AC station? CBS-owned WLTE (notice the Light call letters) kept falling in the ratings till they gave up and went country. Cumulus then tried to do AC but also quickly gave up. So what's unusual about Minneapolis?

And this all brings me back to a psychological puzzle. Why does it seem that this generation doesn't need any soft music in their lives. Today's young people have no interest in Soft AC, Smooth Jazz, Classical, Easy Listening. Why did every generation till now have some soft music for quiet times and some uptempo music for happy times. But today, no soft format does well. In the early days of FM radio, most cities had several Easy Listening or Beautiful Music stations, playing mostly instrumental songs so that people could relax, work in an office, eat dinner, with it not being a distraction. Later came Soft AC, all vocals but still very soft. And Smooth Jazz, a different, hipper instrumental music with some soft vocals. They're now gone. And nothing has taken their place. There is no instrumental format and no soft format on commercial radio. I wonder, how did humans go from wanting soft music to not wanting it?