Is Talk Radio's Falling Ratings Seasonal... or A Sign of Problems?

[Gregg]

In many markets, Talk Radio has taken a tumble. Stations that had been long-time #1 or #2 leaders in their markets (KGO, KIRO, WJR, WCCO, KDKA, KMOX, WPRO, WBAL, WBAP, WRVA, etc.) have fallen a few notches. Others that had been struggling for a few years are now worse (WRKO, WMAL, KABC, KEX, KTRH, KRLD, WIOD, WGST, WPHT, WBT, KTAR, KFMB, etc.) Switching to FM or getting an FM simulcast hasn't helped that much (KIRO, KTAR, WBAP, KXL, WBT, WGY, etc.) Among big markets, Atlanta and Miami don't have a talk station in the top 10 ever.

Some major stations are still very strong (KFI, WGN, WLS, WTMJ) or have only seen a drop very recently (WABC, KFYI). But it seems as if commercial talk radio could be in trouble, while All-News, NPR and Sports stations are enjoying some of their best numbers. So it isn't that spoken-word formats are hurting and music stations are stronger, thanks to People Meters.

Are people tiring of the syndicated Rush-Hannity-Levin-Savage-Beck line up? Except for Beck, these guys have been around a long time. They are all INFINATELY predictable. No matter what Pres. Obama and Democrats do, they're always wrong. No matter what Republicans do, they're always right (except those times when they're not conservative enough). And even stations that aren't dominated by conservative voices... KGO, KIRO, WCCO, etc. have seen a drop-off in ratings.

Are more moderate voices the answer? (People are saying middle-of-the-road Michael Smerconish is doing better than most other talkers, even though he's only in a few markets.) Is a stronger news department the answer? WSB, KMJ and WTMJ image themselves as news stations even though they have plenty of talk. Is that the answer? Or do what WBZ does? Go All-News everyday from 5am to 7pm, then go talk with a variety of voices at night? WBZ is still very strong. And that's sort of what NPR stations do, only doing talk shows in middays and nights, but leaving AM and PM drive to News shows.


Gregg
[email protected]

 

[TheBigA]

Are more moderate voices the answer?

That caught my eye. What usually drives action is passion, and "moderate voices" don't have as much passion as the screamers.

But then, what are people passionate about? What issues are driving people to be vocal and take action? Look around. The issues the conservative talkers are pushing aren't really resonating with the public. This is not to say the issues on the other side are doing any better. But if you're building your radio station around conservative talk, and those issues aren't driving passion, then you'll loose listeners.

The other problem traditional news/talkers have is their aging audience. Perhaps the audience hasn't gone away, but they've died. They've aged themselves off the planet. That happens when you focus on status quo and not about building for the future. Who are the hot new talkers? Glenn Beck? Really? What has the talk format done to attract new younger listeners? Sooner or later that bites you in the butt.

NPR's approach has been about building the brand of NPR, not concentrating on specific hosts. Sure, they have regular hosts, but their shows have generic names, and they can plug other people in those shows, as they have with ATC and ME. The shows don't lose audience when they change hosts because the listeners tune in for NPR.

Obviously there are many other ways to approach talk than from the right wing conservative angle. You mention news, and that's a good idea in drive time. But there's entertainment talk, sports talk, and relationship talk. On that last topic, who's the new Dr. Toni Grant? Who's the new Dr. Ruth? This is an important issue for the younger audience, and it doesn't get addressed on the radio any more. You want passion? Talk about relationships and addiction. What's at the heart of all the most popular reality TV shows today? Interpersonal relationships. Where can people who hunger for that find it on the radio? They can't. Now is the time to rebuild talk radio around younger audiences and the issues they're interested in.

 

[jas2525]

Are more moderate voices the answer?

That caught my eye. What usually drives action is passion, and "moderate voices" don't have as much passion as the screamers.

This assumption is a VERY common mistake.

Why is it that when you say "moderate" you automatically assume we're speaking of a bland style of fence-rider who has no passion?

When people refer to "moderate" vs. the typical partisan hacks you usually hear, they mean someone who has passionate opinions, but doesn't adhere to one extreme ideology.

Are you saying that soemone who believes in a woman's right to choose AND capital punishment AND the leagalization of pot AND the need to aggressively fight the war on terror cannot be passionate because those views don't fit neatly in a left or right wing box?

Nonsense. Moderate does not mean undecided or dispassionate.

 

[TheBigA]

Nonsense. Moderate does not mean undecided or dispassionate.

Let's just say that the reason right wing conservative works is the passion is built in. It doesn't need motivation. It's an easy way to get an audience, just like playing hit songs by big stars. The issues bring a concentrated audience. In order to generate passion on other subjects or points of view, it takes creativity, which is a lot harder to do. A lot of people share opinions about choice and gay rights, but they're not as organized, so they don't tune in to radio in consistent ways. We're not talking simply about numbers, because in terms of numbers, you're exactly right. But it's about motivating those numbers to tune in to a regular radio show.

If you've ever read the book "Primary Colors," one of the lessons there is about directing people to act, to get them to actually go to a polling place and vote. Just because they agree with a candidate doesn't mean he'll get elected. Same with talk show hosts. Just because moderates are the majority doesn't mean you can motivate them to listen to a moderate talk show host. It's a lot more work than someone on the extremes.

 

[radioom]

Dr. D I'm disappointed. I figured you or your producer would have posted your usual pitches by now. This may be your time doctor. Get an affiliate team organized and hit these talk stations aggressively.

 

[Dr. Daliah]

hahaha. I'm here. Sorry I was slacking.

Actually Political radio is King and whatever drop in ratings there might have been is temporary because 2012 is right around the corner.

I'm waxing my surfboard for the FM talk wave...where listeners will long for and be able to get medical news, health updates and comic relief.

I agree that listeners do need passion...but they also need to relieve themselves.

 

[Dr. Daliah]

...and thanks for the advice. The relationship aspect of the show gets forgotten. Promotion and marketing is everything.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

If you want to hear a liberal talker who has a generally interesting show most days. He's on 1150 WDEL Wilmington Del, and the show is streamed online at www.wdel.com. weekdays from 9am - 12 noon. Al Messitti is a local talker, who discusses national issues quite often. He was a former Wilmington News Journal reporter and columnist before coming to WDEL about 5 years ago. Al seems to do his homework before discussing the various issues as a former reporter he still digs into issues to get the back ground, etc, which lends credibility to his thoughts. He's passionate and opinionated. I agree with him some of the time and totally disagree with him other times, but for the most part really enjoy his show. You can have an intelligent discussion with him. Unlike his local conservative counterpart in the afternoon, Al will give the GOP credit when they do something he agrees with, whereas the conservative talker would rather impale himself than say anything good about a Democrat, sort of in the mold of Rush/Beck/Hannity. Al Messitti is far more balanced than any conservative talker I've ever heard, local or national.

So maybe a national lib talk show in this vane would work.

Just of clarification, I've never worked for WDEL or any of their parent company's stations ( in fact I used to work for their direct competitor sometime ago), and have no connection with Al Messitti other than being a loyal listener and sometimes caller to the show. I also do listen to NPR and enjoy their programming too.

 

[johnbasalla]

At least for me part of the problem is where talk shows often focus, and that's on the Presidential race of 2012. It's too early to spend mucho time on that. I'll start getting interested in the 2012 race in, oh let's say... 2012! But in mid-2011, Sean Hannity's "We're on the road to 2012" is not an enticing reason to tune into his show on radio or TV. And Presidential primary debates more then 6 months to a year before the primaries? Haven't watched a one. It's not that I don't care, I keep an eye on things, but the heavy interest and focus is not yet there.

 

[jas2525]

At least for me part of the problem is where talk shows often focus, and that's on the Presidential race of 2012. It's too early to spend mucho time on that. I'll start getting interested in the 2012 race in, oh let's say... 2012! But in mid-2011, Sean Hannity's "We're on the road to 2012" is not an enticing reason to tune into his show on radio or TV. And Presidential primary debates more then 6 months to a year before the primaries? Haven't watched a one. It's not that I don't care, I keep an eye on things, but the heavy interest and focus is not yet there.

It shouldn't surprise you that so many one-trick-pony hosts dwell on one stance on one subject ev-er-y freaking day.

It's radio for the brain-dead.

 

[TheBigA]

It's radio for the brain-dead.

By the same token, radio isn't in the business of judging its audience. If it could attract a 10 share with Shakespeare and Bach, you'd have more of that on the radio. Same thing with talk.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I could dig the Bach, but Shakespeare would be a deal breaker for me. You're absolutely correct. Hannity/Beck/Limbaugh and company aren't trolling for the best and the brightest to tune in, that's what NPR and such stations target. They are targeting the audience that THEIR advertisers seek. Apparently "the General" who makes those steel buildings desires to reach right wing Republicans, so the big 3 is the place to run their ads.

Funny thing about the big 3 Rush/Beck/Hannity, had McCain had won the Presidency in 2008, they'd not be focused yet on 2012, but would be cheer leading whatever programs to bring America back to how it was prior to 1932 that a President John McCain and VP Sarah Palin would be trying to foist on our nation.

I agree with johnbasalla that for most of us its way too early to start worrying about the 2012 election. The GOP seems to be desperate for anyone to run against the evil, liberal, socialistic boogie man called Barack Obama. It's pretty sad when a knucklehead like Donald Trump, who actually drove a casino into bankruptcy where the odds favor the house, actually was #1 in a couple of GOP polls prior to Obama's putdown of him at that press club dinner and Obama's successful getting of Bin Laden that same weekend.

John's point is well taken, most Americans are not ready to be hearing about 2012, maybe a quick update once a week, if there is news worthy of a few minutes of precious national radio airtime, but those guys rant for 3 hours everyday on that stuff. So yes maybe that has something to do with their falling numbers.

But just maybe, people are getting tired of the same ole same ole rants everyday, 3 hours a day 6 days a week as the big 3 all have their weekend update shows on Saturday, which is just a repeat of the highlights already heard that week. So we're talking 15-18 hours a week of the same rant for each of the big 3. So if you listen to all three faithfully 5 days a week you've heard 45 hours of the same thing.

It's kind of like going to a tent evangelist for a revival meeting. You heard what he said and go down at the altar call and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Then you continue to go to those revival meetings hearing the same thing each week(listen to a Billy Graham sermon and the second half is essentially takes you to the same place, accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. This is vitally important if you've not already done that, but once you've done that where do we go from here. So eventually you start wondering what else is in the 66 books that make up the Bible, because surely there's more to God's word than John 3:16. So then you leave the tent revival and find a church where the rest of the Bible is being taught so you can grow in your new found faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe something like that is happening to the Rush/Hannity/Beck listeners. They're simply tired of hearing the same basic message day in and day out and now want some depth to help them better understand the conservative /GOP/TEA Party/Libertarian agenda that they've adopted as their political belief.

Maybe what's needed is a modern day radio version of William F. Buckley to hit the air waves with a more thoughtful, more analytical approach to what it means to be a real conservative, etc, etc, than the bombast the big 3 offer each day. Maybe a conservative version of NPR.

 

[jas2525]

It's pretty sad when a knucklehead like Donald Trump, who actually drove a casino into bankruptcy where the odds favor the house, actually was #1 in a couple of GOP polls prior to Obama's putdown of him at that press club dinner and Obama's successful getting of Bin Laden that same weekend.

What's really interesting is that most right wingers who were so gung-ho over Trump, were completely unaware of how socially moderate-to-liberal Trump actually is. You just throw out a few wingnut positions and they flock to you like flies to @$#%.

 

[radiobum]

Father Coughlin, Joseph McCarthy and other right wingers FINALLY lost their popularity. I don't know if that's an analogy to Rush,Hannity,Beck,Savage etc. but I sure hope so !

 

[Corky Marlowe]

I agree with a lot of the posts here. I'm pretty right wing on most stuff, and I've grown tired of Rush and Beck (never cared for Hannity) and what is essentially "Conservative Hot Hits". I wish there were more "fun talk" shows, for want of a better term, where you could have a mix of entertainment, pop culture, sports, or whatever else happens to work on a particular day.

 

[Signal_Faded]

Among big markets, Atlanta and Miami don't have a talk station in the top 10 ever.




Are more moderate voices the answer? (People are saying middle-of-the-road Michael Smerconish is doing better than most other talkers, even though he's only in a few markets.)

First Atlanta has a station called WSB that does pretty well in the ratings...#2 overall last month. Miami is a different animal all together and I don't know if it is entirely fair to lump them in with other top markets. With 45% of their population being Hispanic and 205 being African-American you remove a large portion of the traditional NT demographic. They do have a Hispanic talk station that was #10 in April PPM though.

PPM has shown us important things when it comes to NT. We have a much larger cume than we thought but people don't stick around for hours like we thought they did. They check in and see what one of the talking heads is saying and then skip over to another format etc.

Right now NT is the whipping boy...there has to be one. A while back it was NT that was going to save the FM band because music was going to go away with performance royalties and the rise of digital. NT is still a very healthy format.

 

[Gregg]

My mistake... of the big markets, it's HOUSTON and Miami that have no talk station in the top 10. As you said, Atlanta has WSB, usually #2 in the market. Although the station that runs Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck, WGST, is way down the list.

Miami is 45% Hispanic and used to have one or two Spanish Talk stations in the top 10. But since the introduction of People Meters, WAQI and WQBA have dropped as their English language counterparts in other markets have dropped. Once upon a time, English Talk station WIOD was always in the top 10 but that ended even before Diary ratings ended.

Gregg
[email protected]

 

[smedge2006]

One problem with Miami is that the potential politically conservative audience literally doesn't speak the same language as Rush, Hannity and Beck.

The other problem is that the population that does speak English is much more liberal than that in most U.S. markets. It's sort of topsy-turvy. The Hispanics are the right-wingers, the Anglos are the left-wingers (along with African-Americans). The closest comparison would be San Francisco.

When Miami talk radio was mostly local, and mostly liberal or apolitical in the 80's and 90's, it did much better. Miami for years was one of two top-20 markets where a local host led Limbaugh in the ratings.

 

[KeyTimes950]

Problems? Not necessarily. Where does one start, or go, with this topic? Let me raise some thoughts.

KDKA is sliding because its demographics are getting too old even in Pittsburgh with one of the oldest populations in the country. However, KD lost most of its national hosts because Clear Channel wanted them (through Premiere Radio Networks) on its WPGB-FM.

WPGB may get its best numbers with what technically is its only "local" show, the Pittsburgh-based Quinn and Rose.

Rush has been around for two decades so perhaps he's getting tired. However, he's still entertaining, still has good research going for him, and still has (for the most part) good screening.

Lumping Rush, Hannity, Beck and Savage really is comparing French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese. All Romance languages but hardly the same tongue.
Beck seems to be headed down the Father Coughlin route.
Savage can't stand any of the others in this grouping.
Hannity's screeners give him too many syncophants and too many shrill liberal voices.

Finally, back to my favorite market, KDKA and WPGB are not alone in the talk universe. WPIT has the Salem hosts, WORD offers a Christian drivetime show that is a cross between phone talk and the typical TV talk show. WAVL offers some national hosts that fill niches. WMNY has the various business talk forms (though it's a shame Lou Dobbs is on a tape delay, unavoidable as Renda sells the afternoon drivetime to a local business news-talk show). And I'll add two sports talkers and the coming expansion of whatever WDUQ will be known after July 1 into a full-time public news/talk format with the promise of a local hour.

It's enough to drive me back to FM music, but that's another topic these days in a city that has three new outlets thanks to low-power repeaters of AM stations.