KDGE and KVIL dual city of license

[davideduardo]

Fast forward to today, and which city or cities is the current KISS (KHKS) licensed to? Are they licensed to Denton, Dallas, Ft. Worth, or just Denton?

Denton.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

By the way, we ID now as KLUV and KLUV HD-1 Dallas Fort Worth. The FCC now requires the HD-1 in the legal ID (or HD2 if that is the case)

Is CVD still your image (and legal ID) voice?

KDGE's city of license is Fort Worth. Their city of license is also Dallas. In this case, Dallas is not merely a hanger-on, it MUST be said along with Fort Worth.

Here's the 64 billion-with-a-b dollar question: can stations with a dual COL ID the
cities in either order after the calls (and before any "nonsense" cities if so desired),
or since (for example) KDGE is shown in the FCC FM Query as "Fort Worth-Dallas"
do the dual COLs have to be enunciated in that exact order?


Now let's put that sort of in reverse, in this case involving TV where the legal can
be visual or aural...KPNX(TV) channel 12 in the PHX market is licensed to Mesa
(Mesa only, not Mesa-Phoenix--you can look it up in the FCC TV Query) and their
legal ID info is always visual, with the COL being shown as "Phoenix-Mesa"--not
"Mesa-Phoenix." They have been getting away with this for years. KPNX is
probably not the fave of a number of us on the PHX Radio-Info TV and radio
boards, no doubt due to their incestuous relationship with the local rag, i.e.,
the Arizona Socialist Republic.

Hey jd--did the "Phoenix" rule you mentioned have anything to do with KPNX?
Previously KPNX-TV, KTAR-TV, KVAR(TV), originally KTYL-TV, COL always Mesa.

 

[jd]

Hey jd--did the "Phoenix" rule you mentioned have anything to do with KPNX?
Previously KPNX-TV, KTAR-TV, KVAR(TV), originally KTYL-TV, COL always Mesa.

No, it involved an FM station. But sorry, I don't remember the call letters.

And in response to your earlier question, the FCC requires multiple COL's to be given in the order they're listed on a station's license. As a side note (and not to veer off-topic into TV) channel 11 ran ID's for some time as "KTVT Dallas-Fort Worth." They have a single community of license (Fort Worth) and the illegal ID's ran for a number of months, but they were corrected shortly after someone mentioned it here, on R-I's Texas TV board. Coincidence?

 

[MikeShannon914]

KDGE's city of license is Fort Worth. Their city of license is also Dallas. In this case, Dallas is not merely a hanger-on, it MUST be said along with Fort Worth.

I would guess that the ORIGINAL city of license is what must be mentioned first, even when it's later changed to a combo COL. I have a set of jingles from the old KFWD-102.1 (1970-78) that all say, "Fort Worth-Dallas," probably LONG before it was officially given a combo city designation by the FCC. Older records dating back to 1962 (as KJIM-FM and KFWT) show it as only "Fort Worth." I have no idea who changed it to a dual-city...likely during the KTXQ-Q102 era.

Years back, when Alan Balthrop wrote a weekly article for the defunct "Radio Digest" on the web, he always made fun of how stations would sweep an unwanted COL designation "under" a jingle...like "KTKS denton DALLAS-FORT WORTH." Whisper it, speed it up to an undistinguishable level, whatever it took to "hide" it.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

As a side note (and not to veer off-topic into TV) channel 11 ran ID's for some time as "KTVT Dallas-Fort Worth." They have a single community of license (Fort Worth) and the illegal ID's ran for a number of months, but they were corrected shortly after someone mentioned it here, on R-I's Texas TV board. Coincidence?

Neat--that some stations are pro-active enough to correct errors pointed out by us
radio/TV geeks here on the R-I boards.

OTOH, too bad the management at two PHX market AMs fail to take note when we
mention on the board that they are chronic "illegal power aliens" for not powering down
at the specified monthly sunset time...(cough)KFNX(cough)KFNN...

 

[oldiesfan6479]

...he always made fun of how stations would sweep an unwanted COL designation "under" a jingle...like "KTKS denton DALLAS-FORT WORTH." Whisper it, speed it up to an undistinguishable level, whatever it took to "hide" it.

Similar to one of the top ten WWV promotional ideas...

New legal ID: "WWV Fort Collins-Denver"

See the whole list at:

http://www.oldradio.com/current/wwv.htm

While the above top ten list is flat-out funny, much scarier is
this tongue-in-cheek item on WWV and Cheap Channel:

http://www.lownoiserecords.com/wwv_the_tick.html

 

[jd]

Interesting discussion. I did a quick Google search and found someone with way too much time on his hands to post a list of many of these dual cities of license (excepting KVIL): http://www.tophour.com/blog/archives/361

It is interesting, albeit a bit nerdy(!), as mentioned on the blog. Perhaps the oldest dual-city legal ID in the country is: WEHH 1600 Elmira Heights-Horseheads NY; I remember seeing a listing of that station dating back to the late 1950's (it was on 1590 at the time, switching to 1600 in the early '90's, IIRC). Also, I can't say for sure, but the legal designation of KVIL-FM as a "Highland Park-Dallas" station might go all the way back to their original sign-on back in the 1960's. CVD would know; he was there in that era.

 

[TexasTom]

I have a set of jingles from the old KFWD-102.1 (1970-78) that all say, "Fort Worth-Dallas," probably LONG before it was officially given a combo city designation by the FCC. Older records dating back to 1962 (as KJIM-FM and KFWT) show it as only "Fort Worth." I have no idea who changed it to a dual-city...likely during the KTXQ-Q102 era.

No, they weren't identifying as "Fort Worth-Dallas" before being given the official dual city designation from the FCC. To have appended additional cities onto their legal ID would have violated FCC rules at the time -- stations could only ID with the cities on their license, period. But the FCC did have rules specifying the conditions under which a radio or television station could apply for and receive dual city of license designation. As a minimum, the station had to place a "city grade contour" over both cities -- and I believe that the community ascertainment requirements that existed back in those days would apply to *each* city on the license. That meant that a dual city designation meant some additional amount of work on the part of the station.

102.1 in Fort Worth may have been the first North Texas FM station to take advantage of those rules to gain a dual city of license designation that included both Dallas and Fort Worth. I remember that KDSQ (101.7) in Denison-Sherman also had a dual city of license designation. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and remember that one of our television stations also had a dual city license designation -- KSTW (channel 11) was licensed to Tacoma-Seattle instead of just Tacoma.

Presumably, the reason why stations bothered to get the dual designation was so that they could ID with the dominant city in their metropolitan area, even though it wasn't their main city of license. That's why a Fort Worth station would be interested in getting a dual license designation to include Dallas, but none of the Dallas stations bothered to get a dual license designation to include Fort Worth. Same thing up in the Northwest, where KSTW was licensed to "Tacoma-Seattle", but none of the Seattle stations bothered to include Tacoma in their legal IDs.

In the late eighties, the FCC loosened the rules to allow stations to include any cities that they wanted *after* their legal ID. At that point, a Fort Worth station could identify as "KXXX Fort Worth-Dallas" and a Dallas station could identify as "KXXX Dallas-Fort Worth" without having to deal with any additional FCC rules or paperwork. And, suddenly, dual IDs became common locally. (Same thing in the Northwest -- when I visit family, I notice that everyone up their now includes Seattle, Tacoma, and Everett in the IDs) Subsequently, the FCC has loosened rules regulating the placement of the main studio (it is no longer required to be in the city of license). So, between these two rule changes, there is no longer any reason for stations to file for a dual city of license designation with the FCC. That means that the only stations that will have these designations are the ones that filed for (and received) such designation *before* the rule changes.

So, this lengthy response does contain the answer to the question that started this whole thread. Sorry that it is so roundabout...

 

[Radioman100]

Many thanks to all for satisfying my curiousity!

 

[MikeShannon914]

No, they weren't identifying as "Fort Worth-Dallas" before being given the official dual city designation from the FCC.

Subsequently, the FCC has loosened rules regulating the placement of the main studio (it is no longer required to be in the city of license).

I guess KFWD broke the rules then...or perhaps THEY were the ones who got the dual-city designation early on. That's one for the old Broadcasting Yearbooks to settle.

I remember KTKS-Kiss 106 (denton Dallas-Fort Worth) had an agreement with NTSU's KNTU-Denton to use their upstairs practice studio at Smith Hall to broadcast from, just to satisfy FCC requirements for a studio in their city of license. They usually did this on Sunday nights. In exchange, ABC (then owners of KTKS) bought some equipment for the studio that students were free to use during the week. Last time I saw that equipment (oh, maybe 20 years ago,) there were metal tags identifying it as "Property of ABC."

 

[CW]

I'm not sure where it stands today, but I do recall that KVIL AM was originally licensed ONLY to Highland Park and the FM to "Highland Park-Dallas". For a time they identified as "KVIL FM and AM Highland Park-Dallas". Wanting to show their "Fort Worth", they had to file with the FCC to allow them to add Fort Worth to their city of license ID, which then became the infamous "KVIL Highland Park, KVIL FM Highland Park, Dallas-Fort Worth". The AM could not get a Fort Worth city of license designation since it could not be heard in Fort Worth!

Today, a station can put anything after the legal ID it wants... "KDGE Ft Worth Dallas Houston" is fine, as long as the addtional cities are after the legal ID.

Back then you weren't able to identify legally with additional cities tagged on immediately after the call letters. It is possible that rule has been relaxed but I do recall that years ago the stations had to be identified by call letters immediately followed by city of license.

Yes, the addition of other cities is relatively new. I can not recall when this was first allowed but it has been the better part of two decades. One of the first notable ones was WGTZ in Eaton OH, a rimshot for Dayton. They IDed as "WFTZ, eaton Dayton alive!"

IIRC it began with the 1st of the rimshots (wasnt Atlanta the home of the 1st one that brought about the main studio rules, etc?)>...

 

[CW]

Hey jd--did the "Phoenix" rule you mentioned have anything to do with KPNX?
Previously KPNX-TV, KTAR-TV, KVAR(TV), originally KTYL-TV, COL always Mesa.

No, it involved an FM station. But sorry, I don't remember the call letters.

And in response to your earlier question, the FCC requires multiple COL's to be given in the order they're listed on a station's license. As a side note (and not to veer off-topic into TV) channel 11 ran ID's for some time as "KTVT Dallas-Fort Worth." They have a single community of license (Fort Worth) and the illegal ID's ran for a number of months, but they were corrected shortly after someone mentioned it here, on R-I's Texas TV board. Coincidence?

I seem to remember the main studio rules coming about because of an Atlanta rimshot.....Have to research to be sure..
As for legal IDs, some stations get away with illegally IDing for years....the hapless ones caught by the FCC because of other issues OR someone called in on them

 

[jd]

I seem to remember the main studio rules coming about because of an Atlanta rimshot.....Have to research to be sure..

You may be right, CW. But I think the Phoenix deal preceded Atlanta, with the first being an FCC decision that addressed a loophole in the studio requirements, while Atlanta influenced an actual revision of the rule. I'll see what I can come up with, too.

To clarify my earlier post a bit, Q102 was allowed to operate from a studio in Dallas by taking advantage of an FCC decision, and for a while everything except for Sunday public affairs programs came from Dallas. It wasn't because they had dual-city ID status at the time; that came later after the FCC changed the main studio rules. The so-called "main" studio was, shall we say, bare-bones. Back then the loneliest employee of the station was Ruby, the receptionist in Fort Worth.

 

[txchipk]

KVIL is licensed to Highland Park-Dallas, but last year applied for and is now licensed for an auxiliary facility licensed to just Dallas, not HP-Dallas.

Does the FCC allow auxiliary facilities to be licensed to different cities -- seems like that might be a sneaky, back-door way to move-in a station to a larger market. Out in west Texas, KGEE 97.3 Pecos lost its class C1 facilities and is using some minimal back-up facilities which it has applied to make permanent (this having the opposite effect of moving away from Odessa/Midland).

KVIL's various FCC records -- http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?list=0&facid=28624

 

[CW]

KVIL is licensed to Highland Park-Dallas, but last year applied for and is now licensed for an auxiliary facility licensed to just Dallas, not HP-Dallas.

Does the FCC allow auxiliary facilities to be licensed to different cities -- seems like that might be a sneaky, back-door way to move-in a station to a larger market. Out in west Texas, KGEE 97.3 Pecos lost its class C1 facilities and is using some minimal back-up facilities which it has applied to make permanent (this having the opposite effect of moving away from Odessa/Midland).

KVIL's various FCC records -- http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?list=0&facid=28624

All of KVIL's transmitter sites (main and AUXs) are on Cedar Hill...Dropping Highland Park is not an issue AS they still get city grade service from it no matter what. This new aux is on the same tower as their current main but only at 1KW ERP...probably to be used when the master antenna is being worked on. Their old main, aux on KPLX's tower has evidently been deleted. Their other main is on the Richland tower south of Cedar Hill...which is a 2000ft tower but off the hill so its AMSL is the same and so is HAAT.. (the 1500ft main is basically as the same eye height as the 2000ft aux on Richland) I also noticed their MAIN license shows change of COL from Dallas to Highland-Park, Dallas...probably an error getting corrected when they filed for the new main back in 1999 on the Cowboy tower off Beltline. Possibly the new AUX has the same problem and will be corrected. (of course you know an aux does NOT have the cover the COL right?? 94.5s AUX is in Carrollton and does not anywhere come close to covering Gainesville..but then AUX sites are good for temp operation but the MAIN is expected to be back on eventually). The FCC has been allowing even primary service AM stations to move from one community to another (some over hundreds of miles away) because they can service more population...