I agree with putting Sports here, but I'd wait for football season to come closer, even at the college level (Think, Arizona State). Alternative has already proven that it cannot work on this stick, so why exactly should it be tried again? Sure it would be the only fish in the (Alternative) pond, but the largest that fish will ever be is perhaps a large minnow and minnows don't pay the bills.Eric Stein said:
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KEXX a huge signal, Hot AC format, but a very tiny listening audience.
- Thread starter 36james
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Eric Stein said:KeithE4 said:
So, Arizona Wildcat football is not considered local?
Mildcat....what? Do they play football there? ;D
Those, and UofA, are definitely possibilities for a potential FM sports station, especially one based in the East Valley. It would definitely be to UofA's benefit to get off of KFNX and its almost-nonexistent nighttime signal.
Other possibilities, since (AFAIK) they don't have radio outlets anymore, are the Mercury and Rattlers.
E
EJ204
Guest
Sports is a great idea, but...
To do it right is expensive. You can't just put a national network on your station all day and hope to make money. Most FM Sports stations in top 20 markets have local hosts from morning till night, only relying on a network overnight and weekends. Or maybe they run Dan Patrick or Jim Rome for a few hours during the day.
Then you also need producers and screeners. And most solo hosts can't just talk to themselves for three hours if the phones aren't ringing, so many stations have dual hosts. Contast that with the typical FM music station that has two people doing mornings, one middays and one afternoons (where shifts are not three but four to five hours long).
Does KEXX's owners have the money to make that kind of investment?
And you might check out two FM Sports stations in large markets that DO have local hosts all day AND carry a Major League Baseball franchise, KGMZ San Francisco and WHFS-FM Tampa. They have awful ratings, not even a one-share. I really don't know why. Both stations have full coverage signals, unlike KEXX. Maybe they still make money because they can run a lot of commercials, more than music stations. But clearly Sports is not the answer for all struggling FM stations, especially for low-budget owners.
To do it right is expensive. You can't just put a national network on your station all day and hope to make money. Most FM Sports stations in top 20 markets have local hosts from morning till night, only relying on a network overnight and weekends. Or maybe they run Dan Patrick or Jim Rome for a few hours during the day.
Then you also need producers and screeners. And most solo hosts can't just talk to themselves for three hours if the phones aren't ringing, so many stations have dual hosts. Contast that with the typical FM music station that has two people doing mornings, one middays and one afternoons (where shifts are not three but four to five hours long).
Does KEXX's owners have the money to make that kind of investment?
And you might check out two FM Sports stations in large markets that DO have local hosts all day AND carry a Major League Baseball franchise, KGMZ San Francisco and WHFS-FM Tampa. They have awful ratings, not even a one-share. I really don't know why. Both stations have full coverage signals, unlike KEXX. Maybe they still make money because they can run a lot of commercials, more than music stations. But clearly Sports is not the answer for all struggling FM stations, especially for low-budget owners.
EJ204 said:
Phoenix may be a Top 20 market, but as a sports market, it's all but irrelevant. Most of us are from real sports cities (Chicago, Boston, NYC, Detroit, St. Louis, Mpls/St. Paul, and a few others) and still follow those teams. Phoenix-native fans are notoriously fair-weather, and really don't count for much.
A 24/7 (except for whatever local PxP they might get) CBS or NBC Sports Radio format on FM would probably work here. No local host, even if they were to hire away Cesmat, Bickley, and/or MJ from XTRA or Bob Kemp from KDUS, will ever beat KTAR local-to-local.
They could broker like KDUS does for most of its local schedule (except for Kemp). Hey, maybe 103.9 could be the 15th home for The Pollyana Positive Side of Sports. ;D
Sports stations bill well. Even if those stations have <1.0 shares in the meaningless 6+, they do well with 25-54 men, which is generally what sports stations target.
KeithE4 said:
I don't know about that. KTAR has been criticized for years, and to this day, as being the mouthpiece of the local sports franchise owners except for the Coyotes (hey, Ron Wolfley - and maybe Paul Calvisi - work for the Cardinals). A lot of sports fans don't care for that, that's why Bickley & MJ continue to be competitive in their target demo even with no promotion of the station at all by Clear Channel.
Eric Stein said:
You're right about the hosts - especially Wolfley - being owner-mouthpieces - John Gambadoro being the only exception. Gambo is the only guy who really rips the teams when they deserve it (and right now, they ALL deserve it). Frankly, I thought he'd be gone by now, especially after the way Mark Asher was canned.
I didn't know anyone bothered with Bickley & MJ anymore, mostly because of Bickley. And since I'm probably one of the few who listens to Kemp, I thought neither KDUS nor XTRA was a ratings factor of any kind.
KTAR provides Kool-Aid, both for the team owners (especially the Cardinals) and their fan-base. Outside of Gambo, I find KTAR to be unlistenable other than during games and ESPN Radio programming that doesn't involve Colin Cowherd. Fortunately for me, The Score in Chicago streams. CBS knows how to do sports as well as news stations.
KeithE4 said:
You're probably a very nice guy Keith but them's fighting words!
Chicago - The Sox? Invisible year after year. Cubs? The ultimate bunch of Losers. Blackhawks? they got lucky once since the 70's. Bears? Only slightly more successful. Bulls? Their name says it all.
Boston - The Red Slacks? Broons? Not exactly exceptional teams. The Celts are but the Pats are regional, not even from the city.
Noo Yawk - Rangers won it once in the past 50 years - wow! Mets....since when? Knicks....lose more than the Washington Generals. The Yawnkees are the only consistent franchise and it takes the largest economy in the nation to buy their trophies.
Detroit - Do the Lions still play futbol? Does anyone care? The Pistons? Ditto. The only winner there are the Wings.
St. Louis - Couldn't wait to get rid of the football Cards but they've done better in Phoenix than in STL. The beisbol Cards do OK but they were better in the old days. The Blues? Not since the early 70's. And now they have the Losers from Los Angeles.....yeah, right!
The Twin Cities - Really? Name one. I remember the North Stars 1980-81. Anyone else? Buehler?
Phoenix got two rehab teams in the Coyotes and the Cardinals. With all the mismanagement that the Yotes have suffered including their building in East El A and the dismantling of their stars they still draw pretty good and last year showed what they can do with a break or two. The Cards are at least competitive and were one play away from a Super Bowl win. Not too shabby. The Dbacks actually won the Series before that team was sold off piecemeal.
How the hell do you expect our sports teams to reach the heights if management doesn't keep quality players? And without quality players how do you expect them to win? And without wins how do you expect fans to fill the stands? Phoenix has been continually shortchanged by the management of its major sports teams but especially the Cards and Coyotes. That would be a travesty in any city.
And just what measure is a sports team the measure of a city? You couldn't pay me enough to live in any of the ones you've compared to Phoenix, winning teams or not.
landtuna said:KeithE4 said:
You're probably a very nice guy Keith but them's fighting words!
Chicago - The Sox? Invisible year after year. Cubs? The ultimate bunch of Losers. Blackhawks? they got lucky once since the 70's. Bears? Only slightly more successful. Bulls? Their name says it all.
Boston - The Red Slacks? Broons? Not exactly exceptional teams. The Celts are but the Pats are regional, not even from the city.
Noo Yawk - Rangers won it once in the past 50 years - wow! Mets....since when? Knicks....lose more than the Washington Generals. The Yawnkees are the only consistent franchise and it takes the largest economy in the nation to buy their trophies.
Detroit - Do the Lions still play futbol? Does anyone care? The Pistons? Ditto. The only winner there are the Wings.
St. Louis - Couldn't wait to get rid of the football Cards but they've done better in Phoenix than in STL. The beisbol Cards do OK but they were better in the old days. The Blues? Not since the early 70's. And now they have the Losers from Los Angeles.....yeah, right!
The Twin Cities - Really? Name one. I remember the North Stars 1980-81. Anyone else? Buehler?
Phoenix got two rehab teams in the Coyotes and the Cardinals. With all the mismanagement that the Yotes have suffered including their building in East El A and the dismantling of their stars they still draw pretty good and last year showed what they can do with a break or two. The Cards are at least competitive and were one play away from a Super Bowl win. Not too shabby. The Dbacks actually won the Series before that team was sold off piecemeal.
How the hell do you expect our sports teams to reach the heights if management doesn't keep quality players? And without quality players how do you expect them to win? And without wins how do you expect fans to fill the stands? Phoenix has been continually shortchanged by the management of its major sports teams but especially the Cards and Coyotes. That would be a travesty in any city.
And just what measure is a sports team the measure of a city? You couldn't pay me enough to live in any of the ones you've compared to Phoenix, winning teams or not.
I dunno, Tuna… IMHO there's more to a franchise than wins and championships. I'd have to agree with Keith's examples of Real Sports Cities, especially considering your descriptions.Because despite their lack of trophies, they've got their diehard fan base! These fans CARE about their teams, they buy the merchandise and show up to the games.
Those lovable loser Cubs, for example? They sell-out every game at Wrigley, and they're a reliably huge draw out-of-town
Yeah, I have to agree...the measure of a real sports town is how they continue to root for the home team even during slumps. Fair-weather fans don't make for a great sports town.
History has a lot to do with it as well. Most of the teams in New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, Detroit and others were around well before the TV era. Radio was how you followed most of those teams. All games were not televised.
As sports markets go, Phoenix is quite young.
As sports markets go, Phoenix is quite young.
Detroit - Do the Lions still play futbol? Does anyone care? The Pistons? Ditto. The only winner there are the Wings.
You didn't even mention the Tigers, and they won the Pennant last year!
IMO, landtuna, your entire post was pretty ignorant; you're basing your assertions on feelings rather than facts. It's so silly.
And you can piss and moan all you want about the dedicated fans in this town...we have a LONG way to go before we can even begin to compare to the familial generations of people who support a team like they do in other cities.
You didn't even mention the Tigers, and they won the Pennant last year!
IMO, landtuna, your entire post was pretty ignorant; you're basing your assertions on feelings rather than facts. It's so silly.
And you can piss and moan all you want about the dedicated fans in this town...we have a LONG way to go before we can even begin to compare to the familial generations of people who support a team like they do in other cities.
landtuna said:KeithE4 said:
You're probably a very nice guy Keith but them's fighting words!
Chicago - The Sox? Invisible year after year. Cubs? The ultimate bunch of Losers. Blackhawks? they got lucky once since the 70's. Bears? Only slightly more successful. Bulls? Their name says it all.
Boston - The Red Slacks? Broons? Not exactly exceptional teams. The Celts are but the Pats are regional, not even from the city.
Noo Yawk - Rangers won it once in the past 50 years - wow! Mets....since when? Knicks....lose more than the Washington Generals. The Yawnkees are the only consistent franchise and it takes the largest economy in the nation to buy their trophies.
Detroit - Do the Lions still play futbol? Does anyone care? The Pistons? Ditto. The only winner there are the Wings.
St. Louis - Couldn't wait to get rid of the football Cards but they've done better in Phoenix than in STL. The beisbol Cards do OK but they were better in the old days. The Blues? Not since the early 70's. And now they have the Losers from Los Angeles.....yeah, right!
The Twin Cities - Really? Name one. I remember the North Stars 1980-81. Anyone else? Buehler?
I'm not talking about the teams' qualities, or the lack thereof. I'm talking about the passion of the fan bases. In the case of Phoenix and other Sun Belt cities, that passion does not exist for the most part - and yes, you are one of the exceptions and so are a few thousand others.
But a few thousand, or even a few tens of thousands of rabid D'backs, Coyotes, Cardinals, Suns, or Sun Devil fans do not equal the rabid fan bases in any of the cities I mentioned. Good or bad, fans of East Coast and Midwestern teams live and die with them. Such a passion has never existed here, with the possible exception of ASU football during the Frank Kush era. Anyone who thinks Cardinals fans are as rabid, knowledgeable, or passionate as Bears, Packers, Vikings, or Steelers fans is drinking some funny Kool-Aid or listening exclusively to KTAR.
Without that passion, a true sports radio station can't work. KTAR really doesn't work well since they pander to the Bidwills & Sarver, and the few thousand Kool-Aid-drinking Cardinal & Suns fans that want the wool pulled over their eyes. True fans won't put up with that pollyana BS. Try that suck-up babble in Chicago, NY, Boston, or Pittsburgh and see where it gets you. Like I said earlier, Gambo is the only guy on KTAR that gets it, and that's because he's from a good, knowledgeable sports town - like Noo Yawk or not, you can't deny that fact about it.
And it's even worse in other Sun Belt cities. LA? Outside of the Lakers, Dodgers, and USC football, the fan base for team sports is pathetic there. Like Phoenix, there are too many other things to do. South Beach Miami, the 6th Borough of Noo Yawk? More Yankee fans than Marlins fans. Heck, the Marlins built a brand new ballpark on the old Orange Bowl site, and couldn't get anyone to show up! The Heat will be followed as long as LeBron is there. The Dolphins' glory days are long over. Atlanta? Can't even sell out playoff games without help. The main problem there is that the south is college football country; pro sports are an afterthought.
There have been, and are, awful owners back east, but the fans still follow their teams: P.K. Wrigley & Dollar Bill Wirtz (Chicago), William Clay Ford (Detroit), Art Modell (Cleveland & Baltimore), Jerry Jones (Dallas) and many others give Robert Sarver, Ken Kendrick, and (especially) Bill Bidwill competition for the worst owners ever.
Part of the lack of passion in the fan base is that we have the same things that other Sun Belt cities have - nice weather & other things to do, especially during the winter. Back east, watching sports is pretty much all the recreation one can have when snowed in.
And of course sports aren't the measure of a city. Having lived 1/3 of my life in Phoenix and another 1/3 in Chicago, I can say that both cities have their advantages and disadvantages. And I left Chicago 19 years ago, for a reason. But I will still say that Chicago sports fans as a whole are more passionate fans than Phoenix fans will ever be.
detroitrockcity said:
I see I hit a nerve in someone who apparently resides in the prime example of a failed American city - sports or no sports.
Actually, I wrote an update to my initial post because I actually spotted some omissions but this wonderful board software chose to delete it when I hit the 'post' button and I didn't feel like writing it again so you'll just have to use your imagination.
detroitrockcity said:
I wasn't pissing and moaning - that would be another poster. And I believe it has already been established that Phoenix is still a young teenager compared with the old sports farts in the big eastern cities who have cherished their teams for a century or so.
Phoenix is different than they are. We don't riot in the streets win or lose. Does that make us less passionate or more civilized? When we beat the Yawnkees in the World Series I don't recall a ton of chest bumping by politicians, real estate developers or players. We take it in stride and go to work the next morning. We live in pleasant weather most of the year so it wouldn't occur to us to go sit in a zero-degree snowstorm to watch our local football team. We are sensible, not stupid.
I could go on and on but I think I've made my point.
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