L.A. PPM RATINGS RELEASED-HOLIDAY BOOK PERIOD 12/11/08-1/7/09

[scooty430]

No PPM results from KFOG yet. It's an experiment.

KCBS-FM isn't a Classic Rock. They probably used something very close to their regular library, but that's all hits.

Classic Hits is all hits. Classic Rock and AAA include album tracks. Playing all hits is safer than playing album tracks. But more hits isn't the same thing as deeper.

Even deeper than normal album tracks go into A to Zs for Classic Rock and AAA. Results for KLOS? From a 2.8 to a 2.3. That's not something you can dispute.

Putting in depth for Classic Rock and AAAs requires great production. That's how come 10 at 10 works for KFOG. The music alone would bomb. The production sells it. That's also what makes The Drive in Chicago work.

There's a way to argue for depth. But 2.8 to 2.3 tells us that just doing an A to Z isn't the way to make depth work.

Not talking about KCBS. That is JACK, and they never deter from format, ever. They have never done an A to Z.

I'm talking about CBS-FM, in New York, a.k.a. WCBS. They have done three A to Zs, two of which had over 2000 songs in them, all of which had very rarely played "stiffs" in them.

So now that you know that, let me say it again:

CBS-FM (in New York) has done three A to Zs.

One in July

One in November

One in December.

It's the #1 market in the country. Now don't you think if it tanked once, it would have been gone forever?

Instead, it was replicated all over the place. Even on K-EARTH, one of the most conservative stations around.

Must be a reason. Now what could it be...... (waiting for David Eduardo's illogical response....)

 

[scooty430]

I'm disappointed, David. All you had to say was "true" and it would have been a big breakthrough for you. *Sigh*

But I don't make up the truth at my convenience as you constantly do... again, the HappyTogether claim clamors for a headline... and your statement is not true. Therefore, it is false.

'

Guarantee you Happy Together was played less often over the past couple years. Yes, past couple months it's back up. That's why I heard it. And maybe, yes, it never disappeared completely. (See, I am agreeing with you. You can try it too.)

The point, which you again miss in your quest to discredit people, is that K-Earth rests songs and then drops them back in, and they do it more effectively with Jhani Kaye. True or false? (Hint: Answer is true.)

 

[davideduardo]

Guarantee you Happy Together was played less often over the past couple years. Yes, past couple months it's back up. That's why I heard it. And maybe, yes, it never disappeared completely. (See, I am agreeing with you. You can try it too.)

That's not what you said.

And I did some random 12 week periods in each year since 2003... about 5 years. 2003 average between 21 and 22 times a week, 420 average weekly cuts. 2004: average of 23 spins a week, library of 410 a week. 2005: average of 18 spins a week, weekly titles around 530. 2006: 9 plays a week, weekly titles around 650. 2007: 8 plays a week, weekly titles around 630. 2008: 10 spins, 540 weekly titles.

Pre-Thanksgiving 2008, meaning pre-Christmas music... 11 spins a week, out of 665 titles.

So, for the last three years, the song has played 9 to 11 times a week, week in and week out.

And the library has been between 420 and 665 titles, never even approaching 250 titles over the last half a decade.

The point, which you again miss in your quest to discredit people, is that K-Earth rests songs and then drops them back in, and they do it more effectively with Jhani Kaye. True or false? (Hint: Answer is true.)

Not true as far as I can detect. What they do, and Kaye is an expert at mechanics, is rotate the songs so skillfully that the average listener does not perceive the degree of repetition each song. What is vastly more common is to change songs from one rotational category to another, speeding and slowing the repetition to give the illusion of rest.

With so few songs that test, stations can't afford to leave songs out of rotation. About the only songs any of us rest for extended periods are those few songs that are borderline novelty tunes, which go crispy under regular rotations.

 

[Zeb Norris]

No PPM results from KFOG yet. It's an experiment.

KCBS-FM isn't a Classic Rock. They probably used something very close to their regular library, but that's all hits.

Classic Hits is all hits. Classic Rock and AAA include album tracks. Playing all hits is safer than playing album tracks. But more hits isn't the same thing as deeper.

Even deeper than normal album tracks go into A to Zs for Classic Rock and AAA. Results for KLOS? From a 2.8 to a 2.3. That's not something you can dispute.

Putting in depth for Classic Rock and AAAs requires great production. That's how come 10 at 10 works for KFOG. The music alone would bomb. The production sells it. That's also what makes The Drive in Chicago work.

There's a way to argue for depth. But 2.8 to 2.3 tells us that just doing an A to Z isn't the way to make depth work.

Not talking about KCBS. That is JACK, and they never deter from format, ever. They have never done an A to Z.

I'm talking about CBS-FM, in New York, a.k.a. WCBS. They have done three A to Zs, two of which had over 2000 songs in them, all of which had very rarely played "stiffs" in them.

So now that you know that, let me say it again:

CBS-FM (in New York) has done three A to Zs.

One in July

One in November

One in December.

It's the #1 market in the country. Now don't you think if it tanked once, it would have been gone forever?

Instead, it was replicated all over the place. Even on K-EARTH, one of the most conservative stations around.

Must be a reason. Now what could it be...... (waiting for David Eduardo's illogical response....)

Dude, if you're not careful your head's gonna explode.

We got onto A to Zs in this thread because I asked about the timing of KLOS's A to Z. It was in this ratings period. It did crappy. That's what I wanted to find out.

That doesn't mean KFOG's will do crappy. I've said as much. I'm interested in those results too.

I'm not very interested in WCBS's A to Z, nor K-Earth's, because I work in a format that doesn't have much in common with the Oldies (or Classic Hits) format, as I outlined above. However, I'm not about to take your word that WCBS played lots of non-hit deep tracks. In point of fact, I don't know what songs WCBS DID include, how their jocks delivered their A to Z, what the production was like, or what the ratings results were like. But the idea that something was "replicated" is pretty shaky. Was LA's Jack "replicated" in NYC? Because the results sure weren't replicated. Was "The Drive" in Chicago "replicated" by The Drive in San Francisco? In this case I've heard them both; it wasn't replicated. That's why The Drive in San Francisco is long gone.

Now Scooty, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to argue on the boards that more songs in rotation is a good idea in all cases for all stations. You haven't acknowledged that that KLOS's A to Z did crappy. But it did. Crappy. Any PD with a brain in her/his head would think twice before "replicating" that.

Perhaps A to Zs can be done right in some formats by some programming teams, but (as I've said) I think it's a lazy and un-interesting concept. Just my opinion. On the other hand (as I've said) programming that includes deeper and/or more songs combined with brilliant production can work. KINK in Portland just did 40 days of special programming to celebrate their 40th anniversary. Each day they only played music from one year from their history. I personally think that's a more interesting concept, and it also says something about KINK in particular that the alphabet can't. This special programming didn't hurt them in their ratings.

So Scooty, in conclusion, depth can work if it's done right. But it isn't a one-size fits all solution. I'm in AAA in part because I like depth. So I'm sympathetic to your desire for depth. But it's an indisputable fact that KLOS's A to Z did not work.

That's it for me on the topic; you and DE can carry on till the end of time on this one, but I'm...

out.

 

[jimmydigits]

Yeah, what he said.

 

[scooty430]

Guarantee you Happy Together was played less often over the past couple years. Yes, past couple months it's back up. That's why I heard it. And maybe, yes, it never disappeared completely. (See, I am agreeing with you. You can try it too.)

That's not what you said.

And I did some random 12 week periods in each year since 2003... about 5 years. 2003 average between 21 and 22 times a week, 420 average weekly cuts. 2004: average of 23 spins a week, library of 410 a week. 2005: average of 18 spins a week, weekly titles around 530. 2006: 9 plays a week, weekly titles around 650. 2007: 8 plays a week, weekly titles around 630. 2008: 10 spins, 540 weekly titles.

Pre-Thanksgiving 2008, meaning pre-Christmas music... 11 spins a week, out of 665 titles.

So, for the last three years, the song has played 9 to 11 times a week, week in and week out.

And the library has been between 420 and 665 titles, never even approaching 250 titles over the last half a decade.

The point, which you again miss in your quest to discredit people, is that K-Earth rests songs and then drops them back in, and they do it more effectively with Jhani Kaye. True or false? (Hint: Answer is true.)

Not true as far as I can detect. What they do, and Kaye is an expert at mechanics, is rotate the songs so skillfully that the average listener does not perceive the degree of repetition each song. What is vastly more common is to change songs from one rotational category to another, speeding and slowing the repetition to give the illusion of rest.

With so few songs that test, stations can't afford to leave songs out of rotation. About the only songs any of us rest for extended periods are those few songs that are borderline novelty tunes, which go crispy under regular rotations.

Dropping from 22 to 9 plays a week is probably why I didn't hear it for a few years, or hear it too much. That's a huge drop. But you are right (assuming your data is correct, which we have no way of knowing) in saying that it never disappeared.

I would say that if you're logging 410 songs, you DO almost have a 250 song library. Take out the Beatles shows, the Elvis show, Reeling In The Years, and you're right down there. That is REALLY small. Those were the borderline unlistenable years.

If they're doing 600 or so today, yes, that sounds about right. Shows how it's improved, but not enough to prevent B-O-R-E-D-O-M. At least now they have more titles dropping in and out, with occasional weekends, the Top 1001 they did, and the A to Z in November (probably 1500 songs or so.)

I would LOVE to see what K-Earth was playing back in the 1980s. I have airchecks where they play all kinds of great stuff, 50s through the 80s. They must have had a 1000-2000 song playlist. Where's your data on that?

 

[oldies76]

I have airchecks where they play all kinds of great stuff, 50s through the 80s. They must have had a 1000-2000 song playlist.

Do you have any airchecks related to their huge specialty then (mid 80's), the "Number One Hits Weekend" over Labor Day Weekend? They played 1955 thru 1984 that weekend in chrono order.

Yes, the playlist then was huge, kind of what CBS-FM is now.

 

[RicoGregg]

Dropping from 22 to 9 plays a week is probably why I didn't hear it for a few years, or hear it too much. That's a huge drop. But you are right (assuming your data is correct, which we have no way of knowing) in saying that it never disappeared.

I would say that if you're logging 410 songs, you DO almost have a 250 song library. Take out the Beatles shows, the Elvis show, Reeling In The Years, and you're right down there. That is REALLY small.

If you factor in the songs by the Beatles, Elvis, and Reeling in the Years that are part of the regular rotation, the number would not be as low as you're trying to make it out to be. You're assuming a library that is without songs from the Beatles, Elvis, and what's on Reeling in the Years. Just how many Oldies stations in the 70s and 80s had playlists without Elvis and the Beatles?

With 23 points, the Arizona Cardinals almost had enough points to win the Super Bowl.

 

[scooty430]

No PPM results from KFOG yet. It's an experiment.

KCBS-FM isn't a Classic Rock. They probably used something very close to their regular library, but that's all hits.

Classic Hits is all hits. Classic Rock and AAA include album tracks. Playing all hits is safer than playing album tracks. But more hits isn't the same thing as deeper.

Even deeper than normal album tracks go into A to Zs for Classic Rock and AAA. Results for KLOS? From a 2.8 to a 2.3. That's not something you can dispute.

Putting in depth for Classic Rock and AAAs requires great production. That's how come 10 at 10 works for KFOG. The music alone would bomb. The production sells it. That's also what makes The Drive in Chicago work.

There's a way to argue for depth. But 2.8 to 2.3 tells us that just doing an A to Z isn't the way to make depth work.

Not talking about KCBS. That is JACK, and they never deter from format, ever. They have never done an A to Z.

I'm talking about CBS-FM, in New York, a.k.a. WCBS. They have done three A to Zs, two of which had over 2000 songs in them, all of which had very rarely played "stiffs" in them.

So now that you know that, let me say it again:

CBS-FM (in New York) has done three A to Zs.

One in July

One in November

One in December.

It's the #1 market in the country. Now don't you think if it tanked once, it would have been gone forever?

Instead, it was replicated all over the place. Even on K-EARTH, one of the most conservative stations around.

Must be a reason. Now what could it be...... (waiting for David Eduardo's illogical response....)

Dude, if you're not careful your head's gonna explode.

We got onto A to Zs in this thread because I asked about the timing of KLOS's A to Z. It was in this ratings period. It did crappy. That's what I wanted to find out.

That doesn't mean KFOG's will do crappy. I've said as much. I'm interested in those results too.

I'm not very interested in WCBS's A to Z, nor K-Earth's, because I work in a format that doesn't have much in common with the Oldies (or Classic Hits) format, as I outlined above. However, I'm not about to take your word that WCBS played lots of non-hit deep tracks. In point of fact, I don't know what songs WCBS DID include, how their jocks delivered their A to Z, what the production was like, or what the ratings results were like. But the idea that something was "replicated" is pretty shaky. Was LA's Jack "replicated" in NYC? Because the results sure weren't replicated. Was "The Drive" in Chicago "replicated" by The Drive in San Francisco? In this case I've heard them both; it wasn't replicated. That's why The Drive in San Francisco is long gone.

Now Scooty, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to argue on the boards that more songs in rotation is a good idea in all cases for all stations. You haven't acknowledged that that KLOS's A to Z did crappy. But it did. Crappy. Any PD with a brain in her/his head would think twice before "replicating" that.

Perhaps A to Zs can be done right in some formats by some programming teams, but (as I've said) I think it's a lazy and un-interesting concept. Just my opinion. On the other hand (as I've said) programming that includes deeper and/or more songs combined with brilliant production can work. KINK in Portland just did 40 days of special programming to celebrate their 40th anniversary. Each day they only played music from one year from their history. I personally think that's a more interesting concept, and it also says something about KINK in particular that the alphabet can't. This special programming didn't hurt them in their ratings.

So Scooty, in conclusion, depth can work if it's done right. But it isn't a one-size fits all solution. I'm in AAA in part because I like depth. So I'm sympathetic to your desire for depth. But it's an indisputable fact that KLOS's A to Z did not work.

That's it for me on the topic; you and DE can carry on till the end of time on this one, but I'm...

out.

Not sure why you've got your bee in a bonnet about this; it's just a discussion. Not getting the head exploding reference, but whatever.

Nah, I don't think EVERY station should have a deep playlist. Only stations playing old music. Otherwise, it's boring.

As for KLOS, their ratings were already low, and it's hard to pinpoint if the A to Z made them lower, or if it was because people were away from their commutes, desks, or even the city entirely. Bottom line, KLOS was one of the first stations to DO an A to Z, and they did it for maybe a decade. So it must have worked.

Your distaste for A to Zs is subjective. If you don't like the concept, that's cool. I do. Because you hear deep tracks, you hear covers next to each other, and you can try to guess the next song with your friends, family, or co-workers. Hey, I don't JUST want to hear A to Z, it's just one cool feature. They should have LOTS of cool features. (By the way, CBS-FM is having an all #2 weekend at the end of February. All #2s, plus the #1s that kept them out of the top spot. Awesome idea. And you can bet they'll play the #2s that don't test well anymore, because that's what CBS-FM is all about! And you can also bet they will play ONLY #2s and #1s.)

CBS-FM did play "stiffs." How about "You Light Up My Life." "Disco Duck" "Trogolytes." Those songs are NEVER played (and some for good reason!) It was a total blast. So much fun, and sorry you missed it.

KINK is actually one of the stations that replicated CBS-FM's A to Z. When I say "replicated," I mean copied. Point being: CBS-FM did it, and other oldies stations followed suit. (I also liked the "year by year" thing you mentioned, but missed most of it. Glad to hear it was a ratings success (although DE will probably say it wasn't, but what does he know!!) When stations copy an idea, it implies that it was successful.

 

[scooty430]

Dropping from 22 to 9 plays a week is probably why I didn't hear it for a few years, or hear it too much. That's a huge drop. But you are right (assuming your data is correct, which we have no way of knowing) in saying that it never disappeared.

I would say that if you're logging 410 songs, you DO almost have a 250 song library. Take out the Beatles shows, the Elvis show, Reeling In The Years, and you're right down there. That is REALLY small.

If you factor in the songs by the Beatles, Elvis, and Reeling in the Years that are part of the regular rotation, the number would not be as low as you're trying to make it out to be. You're assuming a library that is without songs from the Beatles, Elvis, and what's on Reeling in the Years. Just how many Oldies stations in the 70s and 80s had playlists without Elvis and the Beatles?

With 23 points, the Arizona Cardinals almost had enough points to win the Super Bowl.

K-Earth currently plays maybe two Elvis songs: Suspicious Minds and Viva Las Vegas. The Elvis show is all classic and obscure Elvis. It's ALL not on the playlist.

The Beatles show might have more crossover, but also tends to go very deep. You ain't gonna hear "Martha My Dear" and "Revolution #9" on K-Earth normally.

Those shows DO bump up the playlist count, as does Reelin' In the Years.

 

[scooty430]

I have airchecks where they play all kinds of great stuff, 50s through the 80s. They must have had a 1000-2000 song playlist.

Do you have any airchecks related to their huge specialty then (mid 80's), the "Number One Hits Weekend" over Labor Day Weekend? They played 1955 thru 1984 that weekend in chrono order.

Yes, the playlist then was huge, kind of what CBS-FM is now.

No, don't have that. I actually wished I'd listened more then. I was usually listening to KLSX, KLOS, and the Edge at the time. Oldies seemed REALLY old to me.

You should check out CBS-FM's All #2 weekend (with the #1 song that kept it out of the top spot.) I see on their website it's at the end of the month. Knowing CBS-FM, it will be good.

 

[oldies76]

Yeah, it will be a great special. Maybe we'll hear that dreaded stat about "Waiting For a Girl Like You" stuck at #2 for 10 weeks in late '81, blocked by "Physical"...Talk about a frustrating time for Foreigner and a much better song on top of that!

 

[oldies76]

CBS-FM did play "stiffs." How about "You Light Up My Life." "Disco Duck" "Trogolytes." Those songs are NEVER played (and some for good reason!) It was a total blast.

I thought "Disco Duck" was a banned song on oldies radio, because of the Rick Dees conflict of interest? I heard it on an AT40 re-run last year locally, on a 1976 feature.

 

[davideduardo]

As for KLOS, their ratings were already low, and it's hard to pinpoint if the A to Z made them lower, or if it was because people were away from their commutes, desks, or even the city entirely. Bottom line, KLOS was one of the first stations to DO an A to Z, and they did it for maybe a decade. So it must have worked.

It may have worked for some time in the diary, due to the memory-based benchmarking. In the two weeks following A to Z on Klos, KLOS recovered immediately and hugely, with a 33% higher 25-54 share in 10 AM to Midnight than during the feature.

KINK is actually one of the stations that replicated CBS-FM's A to Z. When I say "replicated," I mean copied. Point being: CBS-FM did it, and other oldies stations followed suit.

KINK is one of the longer running AAA stations, it is not oldies or classic hits. And rock stations (oldies stations are not rock stations) have been doing A to Z for about two decades, so the idea was stolen by CBS FM, not KINK.

 

[davideduardo]

As for KLOS, their ratings were already low, and it's hard to pinpoint if the A to Z made them lower, or if it was because people were away from their commutes, desks, or even the city entirely. Bottom line, KLOS was one of the first stations to DO an A to Z, and they did it for maybe a decade. So it must have worked.

It may have worked for some time in the diary, due to the memory-based benchmarking. In the two weeks following A to Z on Klos, KLOS recovered immediately and hugely, with a 33% higher 25-54 share in 10 AM to Midnight than during the feature.

KINK is actually one of the stations that replicated CBS-FM's A to Z. When I say "replicated," I mean copied. Point being: CBS-FM did it, and other oldies stations followed suit.

KINK is one of the longer running AAA stations, it is not oldies or classic hits. And rock stations (oldies stations are not rock stations) have been doing A to Z for about two decades, so the idea was stolen by CBS FM, not KINK.

 

[diva chick]

I believe, for better or worse, that I came up with the original AtoZ @ The Mountain in Seattle. I'd wanted to do it for years. I think KFOG was next, after KMTT had such a huge hit with it in the ratings.
cm

 

[davideduardo]

I believe, for better or worse, that I came up with the original AtoZ @ The Mountain in Seattle. I'd wanted to do it for years. I think KFOG was next, after KMTT had such a huge hit with it in the ratings.
cm

In that case, thanks! I used the concept a number of times at a classic rocker in Buenos Aires, and it was most successful.

What year, if you recall, was the first A to Z.

 

[scooty430]

As for KLOS, their ratings were already low, and it's hard to pinpoint if the A to Z made them lower, or if it was because people were away from their commutes, desks, or even the city entirely. Bottom line, KLOS was one of the first stations to DO an A to Z, and they did it for maybe a decade. So it must have worked.

It may have worked for some time in the diary, due to the memory-based benchmarking. In the two weeks following A to Z on Klos, KLOS recovered immediately and hugely, with a 33% higher 25-54 share in 10 AM to Midnight than during the feature.

KINK is actually one of the stations that replicated CBS-FM's A to Z. When I say "replicated," I mean copied. Point being: CBS-FM did it, and other oldies stations followed suit.

KINK is one of the longer running AAA stations, it is not oldies or classic hits. And rock stations (oldies stations are not rock stations) have been doing A to Z for about two decades, so the idea was stolen by CBS FM, not KINK.

I have KINK confused with K-Hits. K-Hits did the A to Z, and they are definitely oldies/classic rock. I don't know if KINK did an A to Z.

Yes, you are right that rock stations invented A to Z. But CBS-FM, to my knowledge, is the first oldies station to do one, and to do one so BIG that went deep 50s to 80s.

 

[scooty430]

I believe, for better or worse, that I came up with the original AtoZ @ The Mountain in Seattle. I'd wanted to do it for years. I think KFOG was next, after KMTT had such a huge hit with it in the ratings.
cm

In that case, thanks! I used the concept a number of times at a classic rocker in Buenos Aires, and it was most successful.

What year, if you recall, was the first A to Z.

I heard an A to Z on KLSX that was, I believe, in the summer of 1990, maybe 1991.

I also have a recording of KROQ doing a "History of KROQ A to Z" in 1996 or 1997.