L.A. PPM RATINGS RELEASED-HOLIDAY BOOK PERIOD 12/11/08-1/7/09

[oldies76]

But 9 AM is nowhere near a majority work-start time, so my statement that the majority of people do not work 9 to 5 is easily proven because the majority of jobs don't start at 9 AM.

I think Dolly Parton would be disappointed. Nine to Five is an average shift for the workforce. Most office and goverment city jobs follow the 9 to 5 average. In L.A. many jobs end at 5, 6 and 7 and most begin at 7, 8 and 9. Why do you think the L.A. freeways are most crowded during these times of day?

 

[davideduardo]

But 9 AM is nowhere near a majority work-start time, so my statement that the majority of people do not work 9 to 5 is easily proven because the majority of jobs don't start at 9 AM.

I think Dolly Parton would be disappointed. Nine to Five is an average shift for the workforce. Most office and goverment city jobs follow the 9 to 5 average. In L.A. many jobs end at 5, 6 and 7 and most begin at 7, 8 and 9. Why do you think the L.A. freeways are most crowded during these times of day?

Caltrans has the figures, but LA has high traffic from about 5:30 AM to afteer 8 PM. 9 to 5 is not even the government work time; the State Insurance Fund, for example, starts work at 8 AM, not 9. From the DMV to Caltrans to the police forces to road maintenance crews to the school system and bus drivers, 9 is generally not the work start time for most.

Less than 20% of the workforce starts at 9AM Monday to Friday.

 

[Zeb Norris]

Sheesh! I didn't mean to start another pissing match!

Scooty, from my perspective it looks like KLOS did an A to Z and it really hurt them in PPM. That's my take-away from this conversation.

KFOG up in San Francisco is doing an A to Z. Different market, different station, different audience. It'll be interesting to see the results.

As a listener AND as a programmer I've never liked A to Zs. Lazy concept, and if one sticks to one's normal library... well, why bother? On the other hand if you throw in lots of stuff you don't normally play it just highlights that you don't normally play it... AND it's usually not the best stuff to begin with, or you'd be playing it normally.

Themes that lend themselves to great production that sets up unusual slections have a lot more appeal for me as both a listener and as a programmer... but absent production elements that "reduce the psychic cost of entry", it's better to stay "tight, bright, and outta sight".

IMHO

 

[jimmydigits]

Great post, Zeb!

 

[ChannelFlipper]

"Tight, Brite and Outta Site" is exactly why I pay for my radio service with actual dollars instead of listening to the radio dial for free. Imagine how bad the product must be in order for a person to want to pay to get it somewhere else instead of getting it for free, even when it is at your fingertips!

I understand the business enough to know that what you are saying is what pays the bills - no tilting at windmills here - but it is ironic that the the two week A to Z where they got pummled in the ratings is actually the only time I do listen to KLOS, and I am in their target demo and like me my classic rock. But hearing Aerosmith's "Janie's Got a Gun" followed by AC/DC's "Back in Black" for the umpteenthhundredth time makes me wish they would play just playh some old Glenn Miller instead. At least I don't hear him everywhere I go. In other words, I tune in and tune out almost immediately, because KLOS is the new KRTH under the Coffee regime - absolutely unlistenable!

See you next year KLOS, but then again, probably not. By then you will have figured out what David E. and the PPM gurus and researchers already know and it will be gone. Never mind, see you never.

 

[scooty430]

Most people don't work 9 to 5?

Guess you don't drive during morning or afternoon rush hour.

I'm sometimes amazed at your statements!

If you look at the Caltrans data, the census data (the long form surveyed drive time behaviour) and other sources, you will see that, while 9 AM (and the hour prior for driving) may be near the highest time of work start, 8 AM and 8:30 exceed it, and nowhere near the majority of workers start at 9 AM. Between shift workers, who may start at 4 AM, 5 AM or AM for a morning shift (or Noon, 1 or 2 PM for afternonons, etc) and service workers who start at between 5 AM and 7 AM (FedEx, UPS, delivery trucks, loading docks, supermarket suppliers, etc.). Around 9:30 or 10 AM may be retail starts, and then there are restarurants and fast food stores...

In other words, there are jobs that start at or in every hour, 24 hours a day. Some are higher than others, but 6 AM, 7 AM, 8 AM, 9 AM and 10 AM are the highest. In fact, in LA County, there has been a conserted effort to get many jobs to start anytime but 7, 8, or 9 AM... like the schedules mandated for shipments leaving the port of LA on container carrying trucks as one example.

But 9 AM is nowhere near a majority work-start time, so my statement that the majority of people do not work 9 to 5 is easily proven because the majority of jobs don't start at 9 AM.

Once again, you are totally missing the point.

8 to 4, 9 to 5, 10 to 6...... Whatever. Most people work in the day. That's the point.

Your hair splitting, though, is actually great comic relief.

 

[john77]

I do wonder what the actual "average" workday schedule is for people in the LA market... 8:30-ish to 5:30-ish? I don't know.

As for the actual thread topic, it's certainly disheartening for radio fans such as myself to see KOST do so well with their Christmas format. Actually, it makes me want to puke! On the bright side, at least KKGO is showing some growth.

 

[scooty430]

"Tight, Brite and Outta Site" is exactly why I pay for my radio service with actual dollars instead of listening to the radio dial for free. Imagine how bad the product must be in order for a person to want to pay to get it somewhere else instead of getting it for free, even when it is at your fingertips!

I understand the business enough to know that what you are saying is what pays the bills - no tilting at windmills here - but it is ironic that the the two week A to Z where they got pummled in the ratings is actually the only time I do listen to KLOS, and I am in their target demo and like me my classic rock. But hearing Aerosmith's "Janie's Got a Gun" followed by AC/DC's "Back in Black" for the umpteenthhundredth time makes me wish they would play just playh some old Glenn Miller instead. At least I don't hear him everywhere I go. In other words, I tune in and tune out almost immediately, because KLOS is the new KRTH under the Coffee regime - absolutely unlistenable!

See you next year KLOS, but then again, probably not. By then you will have figured out what David E. and the PPM gurus and researchers already know and it will be gone. Never mind, see you never.

Ditto.

I'm on the younger end of the target demo, listened to KLOS heavily for years, and I too ONLY listen during the A to Z.

We'll see what happens. Luckily, PDs at JACK and KRTH have figured out that 900 or more songs is better than 250. They are also both changing the list year to year, unlike KLOS did. Same thing over in NYC with CBS-FM. Overall, things are changing, for the better.

Hopefully the new guy at KLOS will play deeper cuts, and make the station more engaging, as this is what he is apparently known for. Otherwise, KLOS will, as you say, probably die.

 

[scooty430]

Sheesh! I didn't mean to start another pissing match!

Scooty, from my perspective it looks like KLOS did an A to Z and it really hurt them in PPM. That's my take-away from this conversation.

KFOG up in San Francisco is doing an A to Z. Different market, different station, different audience. It'll be interesting to see the results.

As a listener AND as a programmer I've never liked A to Zs. Lazy concept, and if one sticks to one's normal library... well, why bother? On the other hand if you throw in lots of stuff you don't normally play it just highlights that you don't normally play it... AND it's usually not the best stuff to begin with, or you'd be playing it normally.

Themes that lend themselves to great production that sets up unusual slections have a lot more appeal for me as both a listener and as a programmer... but absent production elements that "reduce the psychic cost of entry", it's better to stay "tight, bright, and outta sight".

IMHO

A to Zs with the normal library are indeed terrible. Witness Boston's WZLX. They did an A to Z last year that lasted maybe a day and a half. Yawn. KRTH also used to do very pointless A to Zs with small lists.

The recent spate of A to Zs, however, are big lists of GOOD songs not ordinarily played. That's why they are fun. Other attractions are:

- Hearing lots of different versions side by side
- Guessing the next song
- Wondering how long the whole thing will last
- Being reminded of songs you forgot about
- Hearing things you missed the first time around, or are too young for
- Hearing background info, which most of the time the jocks will give you during an A to Z

There is a reason why stations are using them again, and again, and again.

 

[davideduardo]

We'll see what happens. Luckily, PDs at JACK and KRTH have figured out that 900 or more songs is better than 250.

Actually, PDs at country, to name one example, have known that the sweet spot for that format in most country markets is 700 to 800 songs.

Each format has a sweet spot, and it's determined by researching the listeners.

 

[oldies76]

There is a reason why stations are using them again, and again, and again.

Because the audience wants to hear songs they have not heard in years, not the same 500 songs.
You really like the A to Z concept, don't you.

Specialty programs are a great way to deviate from the everyday playlists and to demonstrate to your listeners what a true classic hits station has to offer.

Why call your station "classic hits" if you only present about 5 to 10% of the hits from the music era targeting your specific demo? And remember, we're only talking songs that peaked within the Top 20 on the Hot 100.

 

[scooty430]

We'll see what happens. Luckily, PDs at JACK and KRTH have figured out that 900 or more songs is better than 250.

Actually, PDs at country, to name one example, have known that the sweet spot for that format in most country markets is 700 to 800 songs.

Each format has a sweet spot, and it's determined by researching the listeners.

This sounds a little like the "it's not 9 to 5, it's 8:30 to 4" point you were making. Missing the forest for the trees.

OK, let's say 750 songs, not 900. (rolling eyes) It's still better than 250, which used to be the mindset for classic rock, oldies, whatever. It represents a change.

 

[davideduardo]

This sounds a little like the "it's not 9 to 5, it's 8:30 to 4" point you were making. Missing the forest for the trees.

You totally missed the point. Most people don't start work at 8, 8:30 or 9. The work start times are spread out all through the day and night, with no one hour representing 20% of the workforce's start time.

But you miss almost all the critical points.

OK, let's say 750 songs, not 900. (rolling eyes) It's still better than 250, which used to be the mindset for classic rock, oldies, whatever. It represents a change.

I did not say "750" songs either... I gave a range.

And most classic rock stations have always been in the 400-600 base cut range, and so have most oldies stations (talking of the recent past... not that many oldies stations even exist now).

Sure, a few stations pushed the lower limits... generally in big, cume driven markets where lower TSL was acceptable. And some pushed the upper limits, and are no longer with us or have modified their view or gotten a pragmatic PD.

 

[radioresearcher]

This sounds a little like the "it's not 9 to 5, it's 8:30 to 4" point you were making. Missing the forest for the trees.

You totally missed the point. Most people don't start work at 8, 8:30 or 9. The work start times are spread out all through the day and night, with no one hour representing 20% of the workforce's start time.

But you miss almost all the critical points.

OK, let's say 750 songs, not 900. (rolling eyes) It's still better than 250, which used to be the mindset for classic rock, oldies, whatever. It represents a change.

I did not say "750" songs either... I gave a range.

And most classic rock stations have always been in the 400-600 base cut range, and so have most oldies stations (talking of the recent past... not that many oldies stations even exist now).

Sure, a few stations pushed the lower limits... generally in big, cume driven markets where lower TSL was acceptable. And some pushed the upper limits, and are no longer with us or have modified their view or gotten a pragmatic PD.

Scooty needs to stop comparing KRTH from a few years ago to now. We are in a different competitive landscape.

The bottom line is cume is up an TSL is down in a PPM world. David has mentioned that 50% of the cume represents over 90% of the AQH in PPM - so half your cume is useless.

KRTH, by the way, is now outside the Top 10 25-54. The 6+ number you see is just a beauty contest.

Over the last 7 days, KRTH has played 600 unique titles. His powers are still rotating around every 14 hours or so.

KRTH had 468 songs that spun 2 times or more this past week.

We had 36 Beatles songs from that feature and another 15 Elvis single spin songs. So that's 50 off the 600 songs. KRTH really isn't much "deeper" than before.

And, how about we look at the length of playlists in Los Angeles and their ratings for English-language (last 7 days):

KSWD 1249 (lowest 25-54 for a Mt. Wilson station in the market).
KLOS 888 (lowest 25-54 was holiday book)
KCBS 837 (here's an exception)
KHHT 737 (lowest rated CC FM)
KJLH 701 (bottom of the ratings consistently)
KDAY 670 (see KJLH)
KRTH 600 (now we're seeing some success)
KOST 560 (consistently near top 5 25-54)
KKGO 542 (they get a pass - Country is a niche)
KBIG 475 (top 10 25-54 every month)
KMVN 421 (consistently rising since they focused and tightened)
KROQ 378 (top 5 in every demo)
KYSR 359 (gaining ground on a monthly basis - top 10 18-49)
KPWR 289 (#2 18-34)
KIIS 241 (#1 in almost every demo and daypart)

Your statement, Scooty doesn't hold. JACK has a larger playlist, but it's familiar. That is the trick in PPM.

 

[scooty430]

This sounds a little like the "it's not 9 to 5, it's 8:30 to 4" point you were making. Missing the forest for the trees.

You totally missed the point. Most people don't start work at 8, 8:30 or 9. The work start times are spread out all through the day and night, with no one hour representing 20% of the workforce's start time.

But you miss almost all the critical points.

OK, let's say 750 songs, not 900. (rolling eyes) It's still better than 250, which used to be the mindset for classic rock, oldies, whatever. It represents a change.

I did not say "750" songs either... I gave a range.

And most classic rock stations have always been in the 400-600 base cut range, and so have most oldies stations (talking of the recent past... not that many oldies stations even exist now).

Sure, a few stations pushed the lower limits... generally in big, cume driven markets where lower TSL was acceptable. And some pushed the upper limits, and are no longer with us or have modified their view or gotten a pragmatic PD.

Huh?

Again you miss the point. I say 750, and you say, "no, no, no "700-800." Hilarious.

Anyway, both the NY and LA oldies stations used to be 250 song monotonous bores. Now they are up around 900 or more, with lots more specialty shows. (Though it is still not enough yet.)

JACK is around 2000, (or 1000 in your bizarro alternate universe.)

This is a total change in how old music is played. A good one. TRIPLING the amount of songs played.

The only old-music station left playing 400 songs is KLOS. It is also the station with the lowest ratings. Hmmmmmmmm. Makes ya think, huh?

 

[scooty430]

This sounds a little like the "it's not 9 to 5, it's 8:30 to 4" point you were making. Missing the forest for the trees.

You totally missed the point. Most people don't start work at 8, 8:30 or 9. The work start times are spread out all through the day and night, with no one hour representing 20% of the workforce's start time.

But you miss almost all the critical points.

OK, let's say 750 songs, not 900. (rolling eyes) It's still better than 250, which used to be the mindset for classic rock, oldies, whatever. It represents a change.

I did not say "750" songs either... I gave a range.

And most classic rock stations have always been in the 400-600 base cut range, and so have most oldies stations (talking of the recent past... not that many oldies stations even exist now).

Sure, a few stations pushed the lower limits... generally in big, cume driven markets where lower TSL was acceptable. And some pushed the upper limits, and are no longer with us or have modified their view or gotten a pragmatic PD.

Scooty needs to stop comparing KRTH from a few years ago to now. We are in a different competitive landscape.

The bottom line is cume is up an TSL is down in a PPM world. David has mentioned that 50% of the cume represents over 90% of the AQH in PPM - so half your cume is useless.

KRTH, by the way, is now outside the Top 10 25-54. The 6+ number you see is just a beauty contest.

Over the last 7 days, KRTH has played 600 unique titles. His powers are still rotating around every 14 hours or so.

KRTH had 468 songs that spun 2 times or more this past week.

We had 36 Beatles songs from that feature and another 15 Elvis single spin songs. So that's 50 off the 600 songs. KRTH really isn't much "deeper" than before.

And, how about we look at the length of playlists in Los Angeles and their ratings for English-language (last 7 days):

KSWD 1249 (lowest 25-54 for a Mt. Wilson station in the market).
KLOS 888 (lowest 25-54 was holiday book)
KCBS 837 (here's an exception)
KHHT 737 (lowest rated CC FM)
KJLH 701 (bottom of the ratings consistently)
KDAY 670 (see KJLH)
KRTH 600 (now we're seeing some success)
KOST 560 (consistently near top 5 25-54)
KKGO 542 (they get a pass - Country is a niche)
KBIG 475 (top 10 25-54 every month)
KMVN 421 (consistently rising since they focused and tightened)
KROQ 378 (top 5 in every demo)
KYSR 359 (gaining ground on a monthly basis - top 10 18-49)
KPWR 289 (#2 18-34)
KIIS 241 (#1 in almost every demo and daypart)

Your statement, Scooty doesn't hold. JACK has a larger playlist, but it's familiar. That is the trick in PPM.

600 songs still beats 250 by a country mile.

You also forget that Kaye is rotating songs in and out. That is significant. For instance, I hadn't heard "Happy Together" or "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" for a long time on K-Earth. Heard 'em both recently.

Add in the songs he rotates, chestnuts on special weekends, and over a year I bet you get near 1000.

Again, very big difference from 250 songs with zero change. Still way too repetitive, but an improvement.

Familiarity breeds contempt......or in the case of oldies radio, boredom. Short term, yes, you get yer little cume/PPM whatever. Long-term, people gravitate AWAY from listening to the radio unless they are forced to. That is why, even before the economic meltdown, radio was in trouble, and "time spent with radio" as you radio people like to call it, is down, down, down.

 

[scooty430]

This sounds a little like the "it's not 9 to 5, it's 8:30 to 4" point you were making. Missing the forest for the trees.

You totally missed the point. Most people don't start work at 8, 8:30 or 9. The work start times are spread out all through the day and night, with no one hour representing 20% of the workforce's start time.

But you miss almost all the critical points.

OK, let's say 750 songs, not 900. (rolling eyes) It's still better than 250, which used to be the mindset for classic rock, oldies, whatever. It represents a change.

I did not say "750" songs either... I gave a range.

And most classic rock stations have always been in the 400-600 base cut range, and so have most oldies stations (talking of the recent past... not that many oldies stations even exist now).

Sure, a few stations pushed the lower limits... generally in big, cume driven markets where lower TSL was acceptable. And some pushed the upper limits, and are no longer with us or have modified their view or gotten a pragmatic PD.

Scooty needs to stop comparing KRTH from a few years ago to now. We are in a different competitive landscape.

The bottom line is cume is up an TSL is down in a PPM world. David has mentioned that 50% of the cume represents over 90% of the AQH in PPM - so half your cume is useless.

KRTH, by the way, is now outside the Top 10 25-54. The 6+ number you see is just a beauty contest.

Over the last 7 days, KRTH has played 600 unique titles. His powers are still rotating around every 14 hours or so.

KRTH had 468 songs that spun 2 times or more this past week.

We had 36 Beatles songs from that feature and another 15 Elvis single spin songs. So that's 50 off the 600 songs. KRTH really isn't much "deeper" than before.

And, how about we look at the length of playlists in Los Angeles and their ratings for English-language (last 7 days):

KSWD 1249 (lowest 25-54 for a Mt. Wilson station in the market).
KLOS 888 (lowest 25-54 was holiday book)
KCBS 837 (here's an exception)
KHHT 737 (lowest rated CC FM)
KJLH 701 (bottom of the ratings consistently)
KDAY 670 (see KJLH)
KRTH 600 (now we're seeing some success)
KOST 560 (consistently near top 5 25-54)
KKGO 542 (they get a pass - Country is a niche)
KBIG 475 (top 10 25-54 every month)
KMVN 421 (consistently rising since they focused and tightened)
KROQ 378 (top 5 in every demo)
KYSR 359 (gaining ground on a monthly basis - top 10 18-49)
KPWR 289 (#2 18-34)
KIIS 241 (#1 in almost every demo and daypart)

Your statement, Scooty doesn't hold. JACK has a larger playlist, but it's familiar. That is the trick in PPM.

Also got to add that I am only speaking of OLD MUSIC formats. Using stations like KROQ, Power 106, or KIIS, which are based on new music, is an apples and oranges comparison. Those stations SHOULD have a small playlist. Indeed, if new music were better, they'd have even smaller playlists, the way KHJ or WABC used to.

And see previous post about JACK and K-Earth. Yes, in 1 week they may play 600 or 900 songs, but over the course of a month or a year it's much higher.

JACK in fact needs to watch out. Even with their big playlist, they will get boring. Note the drop since the days they were #1. Again, people get bored with things.

Of the three stations playing old music, only one is clinging to the tiny playlist approach: KLOS. They are, surprise surprise, also the station that had to oust its longtime program director in a survival bid that seems a bit desperate at this point.

 

[davideduardo]

Again you miss the point. I say 750, and you say, "no, no, no "700-800." Hilarious.

Learn to quote.... if you say "he said" than what you state or paraphrase should be exactly what the person said. You, instead, take a range and make it a single number. That is not "you said..." but "I interpreted." There is a huge difference, particularly since you interpret so many things incorrectly.

Anyway, both the NY and LA oldies stations used to be 250 song monotonous bores.

No, not true. You are exaggerating. At one time, KRTH was around 375 to 400 titles, sans the weekend things. But never 250. And yes, we can go way back on BDS or Mediabase.

Now they are up around 900 or more, with lots more specialty shows. (Though it is still not enough yet.)

They are less, but you would not believe any of us even if we showed you the logs.

JACK is around 2000, (or 1000 in your bizarro alternate universe.)

Jack is around 800 on a weekly basis, and maybe another 200 fills and lunars... under 1000 on an ongoing basis. The "2000" as I said was PD hyperbole and obfuscation in an interview.

 

[davideduardo]

You also forget that Kaye is rotating songs in and out. That is significant. For instance, I hadn't heard "Happy Together" or "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" for a long time on K-Earth. Heard 'em both recently.

Except for the two weeks before Christmas, Happy Together has played 9 to 12 times in each of the last 12 weeds. It has not been off, ever, in the last several years.

Similarly, "Can't" has played 4 to 7 times a week except the week of 12/20 for the last 12 weeks, and has similarly not been off rotation.

Could you perhaps also learn to trim or trunkate the post you are answering unless you are addressing specifics? You have created two-screen posts for 8 lines of copy. Not good netiquette.

 

[radioresearcher]

You also forget that Kaye is rotating songs in and out. That is significant. For instance, I hadn't heard "Happy Together" or "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" for a long time on K-Earth. Heard 'em both recently.

Except for the two weeks before Christmas, Happy Together has played 9 to 12 times in each of the last 12 weeds. It has not been off, ever, in the last several years.

Similarly, "Can't" has played 4 to 7 times a week except the week of 12/20 for the last 12 weeks, and has similarly not been off rotation.

Could you perhaps also learn to trim or trunkate the post you are answering unless you are addressing specifics? You have created two-screen posts for 8 lines of copy. Not good netiquette.

I'd program a song someone is tired of over something unfamiliar in a heartbeat on a gold-based station.

One of the reason "Jack" works is while they playlist is broad, it is very familiar.