L. America may not be having the smashing HD success some would have us believe.

[KB1OKL]

This from an engineering friend who knows radio people in Brazil, evidently despite all the noise about how great HD radio is going over in Brazil and other Latin American countries this is a statement from a Brazilian who lives over there:

HD Radio (IBOC) in Brazil is low. In the year 2007/2008 were testing with
some of OM and FM stations in various parts of Brazil but it seems that was
not approved, there are many technical problems.
So the Brazilian government is discussing the matter and I think it will
take to make a final decision.

This article when translated sounds like Bob Strew-bull, Lyin' Diane or one of their minions wrote it:

http://www.adnews.com.br/eventos.php?id=88610

 

[davideduardo]

This from an engineering friend who knows radio people in Brazil, evidently despite all the noise about how great HD radio is going over in Brazil and other Latin American countries this is a statement from a Brazilian who lives over there:

HD Radio (IBOC) in Brazil is low. In the year 2007/2008 were testing with
some of OM and FM stations in various parts of Brazil but it seems that was
not approved, there are many technical problems.
So the Brazilian government is discussing the matter and I think it will
take to make a final decision.

This article when translated sounds like Bob Strew-bull, Lyin' Diane or one of their minions wrote it:

http://www.adnews.com.br/eventos.php?id=88610

The article says nothing of the sort. Obviously, you do not read or understand Brazilian Portuguese.

The regulatory entity wants digitial to begin rolling out in 2010. The minister in charge of the telecomunications ministry is soliciting comments towards the decision in 180 days to approve the system, which must coexist with existing AM and FM allocations, so as not to be so expensive as the change to digital TV. This announcement was made at the 2009 Brazilian broadcasters association convention. HD, it says, with 38 stations on the air in pre-decision experimental mode, is the front runner as it is analog compatible. DRM is not likely as it is not backwards compatible. While all systems have deficiencies, HD has the preference of the president of the broadcasters association.

 

[KB1OKL]

I do not read nor speak Portuguese but had it interpreted and it was more strident than your interpretation and it did sound like an ibiquity puff piece.

 

[davideduardo]

I do not read nor speak Portuguese but had it interpreted and it was more strident than your interpretation and it did sound like an ibiquity puff piece.

The piece was not strident; it's a news report indicating what the government telecommnications minister is doing about digital radio per an address given to the nation's broadcasters.

And it is in no way an iBiquity puff piece; there is an interview snippet with an iBiquity person and one from a DRM rep who said "our system is royalty free."

 

[KB1OKL]

Here's a little of it, hmm, sure sounds like ibiquity BS to me: AM sounds like FM and FM sounds like CD? The digital signals exist with the analog signals unlike television's model etc.?
Does John Schneyder work for ibiquity I wonder?

Translation: Portuguese » English


The transmitter can use the same structure as antennas for analog signal. "The frequencies remain the same and the digital signal will coexist with the analog. Not work with deadlines for the migration pattern as in the case of television, you need to be 100% digital from 2016. "

The change of system mainly to improve the quality of sound that reaches listeners. The idea is that a PM is the quality of FM and FM that is equivalent to the fidelity of a CD.

(Now that's a joke)

Another novelty is the sending of messages to display devices of receivers - will be possible, for example, have instant information such as weather forecast data or the music that is playing.

(I didn't know IBOC was the only way to do that, what a novelty)

The HD Radio (U.S.) runs in front of the DRM (EU) because it is already being used experimentally in 38 Brazilian broadcasters. "No system is perfect and everyone has to be improved with time, but we are confident that we are the best option to scan for Brazil," said the president for Latin America HD Radio, John Schneyder.

(Why? Because we scammed them with the same BS we tried in the USA, maybe it'll work here, )

(DRM does have a point in this though: no royalty payments):

/snip/ the French Michel Peneroux, representative of DRM, said the event that the European system is more interesting for Brazil because, unlike the rival does not require the payment of royalties.

"The DRM has nothing to sell, it is open," said Peneroux. The system is already used in Germany, China, France, India, Mexico and Russia. In addition to these models, should participate in public consultation the ISBD-T, Japan Finally, there is still hope for a national model.

 

[davideduardo]

Here's a little of it, hmm, sure sounds like ibiquity BS to me: AM sounds like FM and FM sounds like CD? The digital signals exist with the analog signals unlike television's model etc.?
Does John Schneyder work for ibiquity I wonder?

Translation: Portuguese » English

That's not a translation, it is a crude approximation and completely wrong in some cases.

And, conventiently for your trumped-up case, you skipped paragraph one where the head of the Brazilian Ministry of Communications is cited as having called for comments within 180 days before deciding, finally, on a system. The country wants to have a digital standard for 2010 and it must be backward compatible with analog.

And you skipped the next paragraph where the president of the Brazilian broadcaster's association stated that 38 stations with temporary licences are already one with HD radio, giving that system, which is backwards compatible with analog, is not.

What you did include was a vile and poor translation of the last two paragraphs, one a comment from iBiquity and the other from DRM. You make it seem like the whole article was written by the iBiquity rep, and that is far, far from the truth.

 

[KB1OKL]

AM sounds like FM and FM has a see-dy quality, sounds familiar, no? I quoted pertinent points as R-I doesn't like whole articles to be printed here. Yes the government is requesting comments there just as they are here but also just like here iNiquity has already infested the country like blood sucking tics on a dog and it is a done deal, they just need to get over the sham of ignoring the comments of people who know better like here.
I along with many people think that saying IBOC is compatible with analog is a bunch of BS, just turn on your AM radio at night for ample proof. IBOC ruins analog, this is a system with (intended or not) consequences of making analog transmissions sound so bad that people may feel they need digital radios which luckily for us has not happened here in this country.

 

[davideduardo]

I quoted pertinent points as R-I doesn't like whole articles to be printed here.

No, actually, you did not quote the pertinent points. The article was about what the Minister of (Tele)communications said at the Brazilian broadcaster convention, and the remarks afterwards of the president of the broadcaster association.

The parts you mistranslated and misquoted are the final paragraphs, with some short remarks from the two providers of digital in band systems. In journalism 101 they teach that the main point of a story is in the first paragraph, not the last ones. You, badly, cited the final paragraphs.

Yes the government is requesting comments there just as they are here but also just like here iNiquity has already infested the country like blood sucking tics on a dog and it is a done deal,

iBiquity's system got a temporary permit... no other company did. That's all that happened, although the leading broadcast groups saw fit to put a dozen or so stations on in HD in each case.

just turn on your AM radio at night for ample proof. IBOC ruins analog, this is a system with (intended or not) consequences of making analog transmissions sound so bad that people may feel they need digital radios which luckily for us has not happened here in this country.

Brazil knows that AM skywave night service is unused and unnecessary, so they do not protect it. They also know that listening to adjacent AM or FM channels does not happen in the primary coverage zone of an AM or FM, so they make no effort to protect it. Brazil was also smart enough to not allow directional AMs to cram into the band... in fact, the only directional site in the country is the combined 1040 / 1220 site where on channel is directional to Rio and the other to Sao Paulo from a single location with 100 kw. This was by design of the owner, and has not been duplicated.

 

[KB1OKL]

Brazil knows that AM skywave night service is unused and unnecessary, so they do not protect it. They also know that listening to adjacent AM or FM channels does not happen in the primary coverage zone of an AM or FM, so they make no effort to protect it.

Wow, that sentence explains everything, unbelievable, what planet are you from anyway?

 

[davideduardo]

Brazil knows that AM skywave night service is unused and unnecessary, so they do not protect it. They also know that listening to adjacent AM or FM channels does not happen in the primary coverage zone of an AM or FM, so they make no effort to protect it.

Wow, that sentence explains everything, unbelievable, what planet are you from anyway?

Me? I am just stating what is the official policy of most of the nations of this hemisphere. AM stations are protected to the edge of their useful groundwave contour, and not for any potential skywave. This is why you see stations in the same market20 to 30 kHz apart, much less than the US standard.

And this is why there are so few directionals, save a few that directionalized to better cover a market that was irregular in extension. HJED, 50 kw on 820 in Cali with a two tower directional to cover the Cauca Valley is one example.

The licencing authorities realized that groundwave coverage was the issue, not skywave. Now, in most nations, AMs are thinning out or even, as in the case of Mexico and Canada, being moved to FM.

 

[BRNout]

Brazil knows that AM skywave night service is unused and unnecessary, so they do not protect it. They also know that listening to adjacent AM or FM channels does not happen in the primary coverage zone of an AM or FM, so they make no effort to protect it.

Wow, that sentence explains everything, unbelievable, what planet are you from anyway?

Me? I am just stating what is the official policy of most of the nations of this hemisphere. AM stations are protected to the edge of their useful groundwave contour, and not for any potential skywave. This is why you see stations in the same market20 to 30 kHz apart, much less than the US standard.

And this is why there are so few directionals, save a few that directionalized to better cover a market that was irregular in extension. HJED, 50 kw on 820 in Cali with a two tower directional to cover the Cauca Valley is one example.

The licencing authorities realized that groundwave coverage was the issue, not skywave. Now, in most nations, AMs are thinning out or even, as in the case of Mexico and Canada, being moved to FM.

In other words, it ain't just a river in Egypt because these regulatory authorities refuse to recognize the laws of physics when it comes to skywave because it's inconvenient for them to do so. Absurd. And, I am surprised that you seem to defend this line of reasoning because, based on your experience, you should know better.

Haven't we all learned how well that type of thinking works? That's what brought us AM IBOC at night, which all but a very, very small group of us agree is a terrible idea. You can't just license these technologies as if there's no such thing as skywave, then whistle Dixie as they muck up local signals and vice versa.

This is the sort of "planning" that is hastening the demise of the band. Suicidal, really.

 

[Savage]

Yes. It's also the same "line of thinking" that has brought us earlier versions of Government's Greatest Hits, like the Savings And Loan Debacle of the 1980s, the Subprime Mortgage Meltdown which trashed the world economy, Social Security's Bright Future, and an automobile industry that's being rewarded for mismanagement by being bailed out to the almost-certain doom of the US taxpayer.

"It won't work? Make it work. Let me harvest the goodwill long enough to get re-elected. Maybe when the bomb goes off, it will blow up in someone else's lap."

Cash the iBiquity check, or stash the cash in your offshore account. When the next administration tosses you out of office or out of the FCC, you just retire on your fat government pension and withdraw "cash as needed."

Most of the morons responsible for HD Radio in the public sector probably don't even listen to radio, much less AM Radio. What do they care? It's all about them. And special interests.

 

[KB1OKL]

Ahh. I see now, most of the nations of this hemisphere have abolished the ionosphere, yeah, I could see politicians decreeing that.

 

[BRNout]

Ahh. I see now, most of the nations of this hemisphere have abolished the ionosphere, yeah, I could see politicians decreeing that.

Yes and, in a related note, Hugo Chavez announced today that not only did he abolish the ionosphere - but he personally deported it and insulted it on it's way out.

 

[davideduardo]

In other words, it ain't just a river in Egypt because these regulatory authorities refuse to recognize the laws of physics when it comes to skywave because it's inconvenient for them to do so. Absurd. And, I am surprised that you seem to defend this line of reasoning because, based on your experience, you should know better.

I did not say what you are interpreting that I said.

In most nations of Latin America, no consideration is given for the protection of skywave coverage which might exist.

In other words, the night allocations are done so that skywave interference to other stations will not be significant in the primary coverage area of those other stations, nor will new allocations creat night interference with existing primary coverage areas of stations.

The differences are two: primary coverage is considered to be the predicted 2.5 to 5.0 mV/m coverage area, and not some zone of unlistenable signals such as the US. Second mutual nigh interference outside the primary ground coverage areas is not protected agains. Additionally, the idea that skywave provides any useful service anywhere is not considered.

This is the reality of how radio is listened to, so the authorites elsewhere are simply observing human behaviour and not regulating something that is not used... either fringe groundwave or skywave coverage outside the normal groundwave primary area.

Haven't we all learned how well that type of thinking works? That's what brought us AM IBOC at night, which all but a very, very small group of us agree is a terrible idea. You can't just license these technologies as if there's no such thing as skywave, then whistle Dixie as they muck up local signals and vice versa.

But you can license them if you realize that skywave produces insignificant listening today, and that it is worth sacrificing to try to give dying AM radio a boost. Same with ultra-fringe area coverage listening to groundwave signals.

This is the sort of "planning" that is hastening the demise of the band. Suicidal, really.

The band was dying before HD. It's been dying demographically for more than a decade.

 

[davideduardo]

Ahh. I see now, most of the nations of this hemisphere have abolished the ionosphere, yeah, I could see politicians decreeing that.

Nobody has suggested that skywave does not exist; it is just not useful today and, thus, in more forward looking nations, it is not protected.

 

[vacuum tube]

If you want areal world example of what happens when you ignore skywave interference, just tune to 1230, 1240, 1340,1400, 1450, or 1490 anytime around sunset until well after sunrise anywhere in the 48 states. You will find the 2.5 to 5 mv/m contours will provide unlistenable signals....trust me you will need 25 mv/m or more of signal for anything close to an interference free signal. This with all stations operating at only 1000 watts, ALL ignoring skywave. Maybe we should give them all a power increase to 5000 watts, oh wait that has already been done. (250 to 1KW). MW propogation, it is what it is.

 

[davideduardo]

If you want areal world example of what happens when you ignore skywave interference, just tune to 1230, 1240, 1340,1400, 1450, or 1490 anytime around sunset until well after sunrise anywhere in the 48 states. You will find the 2.5 to 5 mv/m contours will provide unlistenable signals....trust me you will need 25 mv/m or more of signal for anything close to an interference free signal. This with all stations operating at only 1000 watts, ALL ignoring skywave. Maybe we should give them all a power increase to 5000 watts, oh wait that has already been done. (250 to 1KW). MW propogation, it is what it is.

Where did I say to ignore skywave interference? I said that most other nations in this hemisphere protect the local contours, but not the skywave service areas. Two co-channel stations can beat each other up outside the city grade area of each, and not have to worry about protecting the skywave coverage areas.

The US, and thus via NARBA, Canada, Mexico and the Dominican Republic, created those local channels and placed them way to close to each other. Most other nations did very different things.

A good example is Colombia, which put the regionals, with up to 100 kw below 1000 kHz (most are 10 to 50 kw), the metropolitan area stations, up to 10 kw, up to 1250, and locals up to 1 kw up to 1600. The way the channels are allocated, there is adequate spacing, and each part of the band has a specific density, with no stronger or weaker adjacent channels.

The US plan was based on early 1930's population distribution, from a time when urban sprawl was not a factory. The result is that in the top 100 US markets, there are only about 200 "viable" stations on AM, meaning those that cover the pretty much the entire metro, day and night, with a usable signal. In fact, there are some markets, like Washington, DC, which have no viable AM stations.

 

[KB1OKL]

Ahh. I see now, most of the nations of this hemisphere have abolished the ionosphere, yeah, I could see politicians decreeing that.

Nobody has suggested that skywave does not exist; it is just not useful today and, thus, in more forward looking nations, it is not protected.

I'll bet a million long distance truckers would argue with you that skywave is not useful today, in fact mostly everyone that scans around the AM band at night while driving is using skywave which is a lot more people than you obviously care to admit. Skywave is alive and well. AM skywave is the only reliable long distance radio mode at night, with FM you have to change the station every hour, gets tiresome, you lock onto a good (former) clear and you can drive for hours without changing the station. Of course you can do that clear across the country with satellite.

 

[pocket-radio]

It's a technology that NOBODY was asking for. All of this is MORE of radio's inside out thinking. Listeners want the ability to choose their own playlist, not what some corporate PD thinks listeners want.

HD serves the agenda of Bob Strubles pocket book. For those who like radio, AM & FM still sounds good.
For listeners 12-18, they don't like radio, because Ipods, Iphones and the internet are their technology, sorry it's not radio. So let's super serve radio listeners with quality content and forget HD.