LA's Oldies/80s 'Consultant' speaks about the new K-SURF

[davideduardo]

ure, and you are almost certainly correct. But I refer you back up to the discussion of it being Saul's station and his money. It is only a failure if he deems it so, and from all that I have read over the years, he doesn't mind the failures. He is a broadcaster committed to quality programming (by his own definition) and experimentation. Like all of the stations he has put on 1260, this one is not destined to last for all of the reasons you correctly note. But what you don't understand is not all success is measured in dollars. I am quite sure he is proud of even his "failures" and the fact that they were ever on the air at all is a success in and of itself. Remember: his stations, his rules, his definitions. Not yours, the market's, or anyone else's. I, like a lot of other people, plan to enjoy it for the 18 to 24 months it is here.

Yes, it is Saul's station, and he can't find anything better to do with it. If 1260 were mine, I would turn in the license and accept the lack of viability of a suburban AM on a high dial position in today's radio world.

Saul can do whatever he wants with the station and the HD subchannels. In that you are right. But putting the format on a pedestal and worshiping it is senseless, just as is blaming consultants for showing viable stations how to maximize their audience and revenues.

I actually relate to Saul's little project. When I put my first FM on the air, I managed to get a large batch of FM licenses. Several I used for simulcasts with my AMs, another I used for Beautiful Music and then there was one I had no profit-making use for so I ran it with no commercials as a classical station. I enjoyed making out each day's playlist (it only ran from 5 PM to 11 PM) and liked listening to it when at home in the evenings. I sustained it that way for several years until I needed the frequency to do album rock. It was fun, but I knew it could not make money... but the cluster had a bunch of other profitable stations to sustain it.

 

[benale]

Saul is using his HD channels wisely...airing formats that are on longer viable on the main channels. Of course older oldies are not advertiser friendly and its nice to hear this music on commercial radio. I would imagine he will get local ads on the AM and I applaud him for serving an audience advertisers stay away from. Saul knows he is going after a small,niched audience and I hope he will stick with it. I agree some of the older mid 50s songs don't mix with the mid and late 60s songs,but I'm glad this great music is actually being aired. Of course Satellite and Internet radio cover standards and oldies well,but it's good to have these songs on over the air radio. Looking forward to being in SoCal in a few months and listening to 105 1 HD2 and 3 and 1260.on my Sangean HD16 radio.

 

[oldies76]

I listened and got the same impression on targeting that you did. A lot of the pre-British Invasion stuff was material I never liked or no longer like hearing as it is an embarrassment. And, in my case, I played a lot of those songs when they were currents and I was a freshman PD.

What a lot of armchair annalists don't take into account is that some of us have moved on. I'll take Ed Sheeran over the Shirelles, Wiz Khalifa over the Monotones and Pitbull over The Platters any day.

But that's you......many others appreciate this station and are fine with hearing pre-64's. Some have moved on yes, but others long for this kind of music. Give Saul a chance, he's doing it right. It's an alternative to everything else LA has to offer. I'll be listening.

 

[TheBigA]

I'll be listening.

Until he geo-fences his stream. Which is something he tends to do.

 

[landtuna]

You make my point. You are in an age group for which essentially no radio advertising money is available.

It didn't sound to me as if Saul cares about making money with this particular asset. But if what you say is true why then are there a modicum of stations set up this very same way? I am thinking of course of WPLB and WKCE but I am sure there are others.

As we have discussed at length although there are no agency buys for Oldies there seem to be sustainable numbers of local ad dollars available. Either that or there are people who have deep pockets who like to run radio stations without regard for commercial sales.

 

[landtuna]

Until he geo-fences his stream. Which is something he tends to do.

Geo-fencing is pretty useless in this day and age for anyone with average Internet knowledge.

 

[davideduardo]

Geo-fencing is pretty useless in this day and age for anyone with average Internet knowledge.

But it is very effective in reducing streaming royalty costs. Smaller stations and independent station that get too much out-of-market listening simply stop streaming.

And since most streaming is don on smartphones, the average person is not able to do location masking and such.

 

[Prescott Joe]

Saul reminds me of KAHM FM 102.1 founder and original owner Lou Silverstein.
Lou wasn't afraid to buck the trend(s) and the naysayers. He started with a
humble AM station, went to FM where he brought an Easy Listening format to
North Central Arizona. The format continues to this day with minor tweaks
and updates. Lou has passed but his legacy lives on, every day, at KAHM.
He and his family have been laughing all the way to bank for many years.

 

[davideduardo]

Saul reminds me of KAHM FM 102.1 founder and original owner Lou Silverstein.
Lou wasn't afraid to buck the trend(s) and the naysayers. He started with a
humble AM station, went to FM where he brought an Easy Listening format to
North Central Arizona. The format continues to this day with minor tweaks
and updates. Lou has passed but his legacy lives on, every day, at KAHM.
He and his family have been laughing all the way to bank for many years.

That station is a good case study. The Prescott area has a very high percentage of persons over 60, predominantly retired and many with decent incomes. It's also a market where there is limited or no agency revenue, so it's all about direct selling.

LA is the opposite. It's an area from which retired persons flee if they can: high taxes, high property costs, congestion and many other issues. Much radio business is agency driven, so ratings in the 18 to 54 year old range are essential to sales to ad shops. There is no business model that supports a format on an HD sub-channel with a very poor AM as a simulcast partner. It's just an expensive hobby.

 

[landtuna]

KAHM is the perfect example of a format that fits his demo. Prescott and the areas surrounding it (including Sun City and Sun City West) are huge retirement communities and this station is very popular with that age group. Plus, there are enough ad dollars available to sustain his operation (which I assume is on the bare bones side).

 

[ChannelFlipper]

But putting the format on a pedestal and worshiping it is senseless, just as is blaming consultants for showing viable stations how to maximize their audience and revenues.

Putting on a pedestal? Worshiping it?? That is a long way from what I am saying, which is "I enjoy the new oldies format on a pea-shooter AM and sub-channel FM that has a more interesting playlist than the local mass-appeal oldies station on the FM dial". For me, it will be one of probably over fifty over-the-air stations, internet streams, DirecTV music channels and SiriusXM channels I will tune in in any given month. There is no worshiping any of them.

I always get a kick out of you pros telling the world "it has to be done the way all of us consultants would tell you to do it and if you don't you will FAIL" whenever a format like this comes along. I don't think it is your intent, but you come off as implying "the station is wrong to be doing that way, and you shouldn't want to listen to a station that isn't professionally consulted in the right way by one of us". You then proceed to say that it will never last, and then take a victory lap when your prediction ultimately comes true. Of course the station will not last. Everyone knows it. Saul knows it.

Just to be clear, I am not anti-consultant, and as I noted above, stations like KRTH need consulting and research in order to remain competitive in the high stakes game of corporate over the air radio. You have your places (stations), jobs to do, and you do them very well. But geez, a two-bit off-the-radar flyer comes by that chooses not to play the game by your rules and you guys get all unhinged as if it is an affront to the radio industry itself. There is room at the table for you guys and Saul too. I don't see what all of the fuss is about.

 

[davideduardo]

KAHM is the perfect example of a format that fits his demo. Prescott and the areas surrounding it (including Sun City and Sun City West) are huge retirement communities and this station is very popular with that age group. Plus, there are enough ad dollars available to sustain his operation (which I assume is on the bare bones side).

The minimum age for Beautiful Music partisans is over 70. There's no money for that in the Phoenix metro, and not too much left in the Prescott area.


Jut 5 years ago, KAHM was up in the 9 share range. In its last book in 2016 it was under a 4 share. Revenue has been flat for a decade.

 

[TheBigA]

I don't see what all of the fuss is about.

I don't see anyone making a fuss.

 

[davideduardo]

Putting on a pedestal? Worshiping it??

I was not singling you out specifically; the tone of many of the comments here has been unrealistic and overly fawning. That was my point.

And, of course, the blending of post-54 with pre-64 material makes for an incongruous mating that is likely to be indigestible by many.

I always get a kick out of you pros telling the world "it has to be done the way all of us consultants would tell you to do it and if you don't you will FAIL" whenever a format like this comes along. I don't think it is your intent, but you come off as implying "the station is wrong to be doing that way, and you shouldn't want to listen to a station that isn't professionally consulted in the right way by one of us".

If that's your conclusion, I would suggest some reading comprehension courses. My point is not to recommend consultants... most companies don't use outside programming consultants today, anyway. What I do stress is that, from a financial standpoint, many of the formats favored on this board that appeal to very old demos just can't be expected to last as there is no money out there in most markets to sustain them.

Listeners, indeed, as you say, should enjoy them while they can if they find them entertaining.

You then proceed to say that it will never last, and then take a victory lap when your prediction ultimately comes true. Of course the station will not last. Everyone knows it. Saul knows it.

In Saul's case, he likely can afford to sustain the format for a while. But it won't produce much revenue and it will eventually become tiring. I think the first to go would be the AM, given that it sits on relatively valuable land... land that makes the station worth more dead than alive, I think.

But geez, a two-bit off-the-radar flyer comes by that chooses not to play the game by your rules and you guys get all unhinged as if it is an affront to the radio industry itself. There is room at the table for you guys and Saul too. I don't see what all of the fuss is about.

Nobody is unhinged. Just a bit mystified about the "why" of the format. The only good answer is "Because Saul wants to and can afford to". It has nothing, really, to do with the listeners.

 

[gr8oldies]

WKCE was brought up. I live in Knoxville and my commute is all in the translator's coverage area but I still don't get it. A lot of unrecognizables, almost all from the early 60s mixed with unrecognizable early 60s classic country (before you say "but it's Tennessee!" remember a heck of a lot of people who live here now transplanted in from other areas of the country. I can stay with it for a song or 2 and I have above average interest in oldies. A tighter, late 60s oldies format, while still skewing older, could do better IMO. High school sports is certainly helping.

 

[oldies76]

Of course the station will not last. Everyone knows it. Saul knows it.

I sure hope you're wrong. I've been listening for about an hour and a half now and this has ties to the KRTH sound before these songs were cut on that station. I takes me back and it sounds great, full and I hope it lasts for years. And so far, all songs are the original radio versions. But you're probably right...

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I sure hope you're wrong. I've been listening for about an hour and a half now and this has ties to the KRTH sound before these songs were cut on that station. I takes me back and it sounds great, full and I hope it lasts for years. And so far, all songs are the original radio versions. But you're probably right...

I am right. The only difference is that when it goes I will be disappointed (Just like I was when he inevitably dropped all-Beatles) and will not be taking any I-told-you-so victory laps. Enjoy it while it is here.

Saul says he has increased the power of 1260 and he must have because I could get it relatively clearly in Glendale and La Canada this afternoon, whereas that was not possible in the past. But it is much better to tune in the HD-2 channel. As HD channels go, this one sounds very clear and well-engineered to me, where most of the rest of them do not (they are muffled with limited dynamic range).

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I don't see anyone making a fuss.

Did you see the email by a certain self-certified industry expert at the top of this thread?

 

[TheBigA]

Did you see the email by a certain self-certified industry expert at the top of this thread?

I did, and he ended it with this:

"My admiration for Saul for taking chances simply because he can afford to remains at a 'power rotation' level.""

That doesn't sound like someone who's making a fuss. He's stating the truth.

 

[davideduardo]

Saul says he has increased the power of 1260 and he must have because I could get it relatively clearly in Glendale and La Canada this afternoon, whereas that was not possible in the past.

The power was increased over a decade ago from the same site on Lassen just west of Woodman up near the Sylmar reservoir. In fact, it increased power at the same time they moved the COL from San Fernando to Beverly Hills. Looking at the engineering, when they increased to 20 kw they had to pull in a bit more to the east due to the new protection standards.

The 10 mV/m barely hits Glendale by day, and to the south it stops on a line running from East LA to Inglewood, Most of the signal goes to the west Valley and out to sea.

Nothing has changed in more recent years, although they ran on an STA at low power for quite a period of time when they had to do some rebuilding of the site, apparently due to nearby construction distorting the pattern.