Listen for yourself-WHAT HD RADIO SOUNDS LIKE AT MY HOUSE--60 to 80 miles out

[Mike Walker]

Here's a sample (recorded from my Accurian HD Radio, patched into an Archos Gmini 402 hard drive digital recorder, captured in uncompressed .wav format, transferred to the computer in my studio, edited for brevity and emphasis, with my comments added, compressed to a high bitrate Windows Media file. Sorry, no lossless. I can only hold so many huge files at my website. The antenna was the Magnum Dynalab SR100 "Silver Ribbon", a glorified set of rabbit ears. Distant location. Simple INDOOR antenna. You be the judge of whether HD Radio is reliable at a distance! The file may either stream, or be downloaded on a broadband connection. May the "farce" be with you!

http://www.theproductionroom.net/hd.wma

 

[hipporadio]

Here's a sample (recorded from my Accurian HD Radio, patched into an Archos Gmini 402 hard drive digital recorder, captured in uncompressed .wav format, transferred to the computer in my studio, edited for brevity and emphasis, with my comments added, compressed to a high bitrate Windows Media file. Sorry, no lossless. I can only hold so many huge files at my website. The antenna was the Magnum Dynalab SR100 "Silver Ribbon", a glorified set of rabbit ears. Distant location. Simple INDOOR antenna. You be the judge of whether HD Radio is reliable at a distance! The file may either stream, or be downloaded on a broadband connection. May the "farce" be with you!

http://www.theproductionroom.net/hd.wma

Mike... That was a fairly compelling (and productive) presentation! The Davidson NPR (Classical) sounded exceptional (ZERO noise--and that's the "FM bane" of that format)... WTQR was very good on HD-1, and their HD-2 was one of the better examples I have heard... "Lite" in Charlotte was "OK", but less than a stellar sales example. I noticed a strange "image shift" a few seconds in on HD-1 [?] - HD-2 seemed "weak and dull" (kind of like a poorly-processed FM from the "sticks".

The audio system connected to this PC is a (well-beyond-typical) Altec-Lansing system (an ACS-48 at 30-watts/ch and a 50-watt sub-woofer). As a comparison, I plugged a Tivoli iPAL into it's second (switched) line input and selected three format-similar stations (all in analog stereo with a good signal)... NOT EVEN CLOSE on the Classical--HD WHIPPED TAIL! Country was quieter and a bit brighter in HD--honestly, HD was a winner there also. The local analog AC signal seemed slightly better than "Lite". Considering the necessary addition of a second "lossy" compression scheme--your demo makes a fair argument for the benifits of HD on FM... SORRY to some of the crowd--I'm just trying to be objective here.

In any event--the Accurian radio exports fine quality via it's headphone output, and can't be judged solely by its 2.5-inch speakers!

THANKS for the nice stream!

 

[Mike Walker]

The "image shift" on Lite 102.9 was the switch from analog to HD. I thought I'd leave that in one of the cuts. You're right, they (and WTQR, in my opinion) use too damn much processing!)

 

[hipporadio]

Mike... Something I noticed on the Davidson NPR that REALLY impressed me was the voice channel--NO "grit"--completely NATURAL. That's a hard one to get "right" in the world of FM radio... Just listen to those God-awful-quality FM Talk stations! I suspect it's the engagement of the the high-frequency limiter/clipper that goes unhidden by the high-frequency overtones in music. In HD--there would be no pre-emphasis problem to contend with.

I suspected the "image shift" WAS a change in reception mode, but that SHOULDN'T affect "sound-stage"... Are they making the HD sound falsely "wider" for some stupid reason to "fool" Charlotte listeners into feeling a "high" from HD listening? It's obvious that "Lite" delays the analog audio to compensate--perfect time allignment, but just ANOTHER "box" in the chain to clutter the sound--I don't care for that scenario! It wasn't like "Lite" was "over-processed"--more like "poorly processed".

Anyway... That was a fine presentation... And YOUR vocal channel wasn't 'half-bad either

 

[Mike Walker]

Actually the Accurian blends weak analog fm stereo signals to keep noise out. So it was blanded (somewhere between stereo and mono) until the HD kicked in. Remember, I'm 80 miles from Lite 102.9! That's why I left that transition in...so you can hear that I'm not in a strong signal area. Without HD, the station would be pretty much mono on the Accurian (or any other radio with automatic blend, such as most car radios).

Accurian decided, rightly or wrongly, to keep everything as quiet as possible, even on analog. So there's blending on weak signals. Strong ones like the one I produce for, WKBC FM (North Wilkesboro NC) sound plenty 'wide".

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I had a little black box that I created with rca jacks for input and output, a switch, and potentiometer progressively tying the hot leads for left and right together. Patched into a tape monitor loop, or between my tuner and amp, I could adjust stereo separation anywhere between full stereo and full mono, allowing me to dial in the right compromise between noise and separation in my distant locale! A local stereo store (Highland Audio in Boone, NC) wanted to sell my "little black boxes", but I didn't have time to build them.

 

[hipporadio]

Actually the Accurian blends weak analog fm stereo signals to keep noise out. So it was blended (somewhere between stereo and mono) until the HD kicked in. Remember, I'm 80 miles from Lite 102.9...

OK Mike... Let me get this straight... The RS Accurian was in analog “stereo blend”, yet suddenly switched to full HD reception [?] My experience with receivers and “stereo blend” is that they usually enter that mode BELOW a 50-microvolt input to the front-end. ENGINEERS HERE help me out—isn’t that about 54dbu? Sorry if I’m mistaken, but I’ve fallen a bit behind during the years I’ve been out of the race!

So Mike, are you telling us that your Radio Shack HD Accurian is recovering not only HD-1—but HD-2 at below a 54dbu signal input? Obviously not, but HD-1 generally requires around 70dbu (verified by pro-HD corporate-CE Kelly in his earlier posts here). Since “Lite 102.9”—Charlotte from (as you said) "80-miles away" ALSO provided you with HD-2 reception which requires even more signal (generally @78dbu)—WHY would your receiver be in analog “stereo blend” unless it has a VERY HIGH threshold to trigger that mode?

I’M NOT calling into question your post Mike—I really appreciated the effort you put into streaming a VERY HIGH QUALITY .wma file—It displays HD radio very well. Heck, I can’t do that from my Verizon DSL! I may have a question about the location of your recording site though. I APOLIGIZE if I'm jumping to conclusions, but understand the prior lexicon I just laid out--It doesn't make total sense. I’m merely trying to verify that Radio Shack’s HD Accurian is a “historical anomaly” in HD reception (HD-2 at 54dbu)... They need to get together with the BA folks... Maybe they RS could help the very-capable BA in fixing the HD Receptor!

 

[700WLW]

Here's a sample (recorded from my Accurian HD Radio, patched into an Archos Gmini 402 hard drive digital recorder, captured in uncompressed .wav format, transferred to the computer in my studio, edited for brevity and emphasis, with my comments added, compressed to a high bitrate Windows Media file. Sorry, no lossless. I can only hold so many huge files at my website. The antenna was the Magnum Dynalab SR100 "Silver Ribbon", a glorified set of rabbit ears. Distant location. Simple INDOOR antenna. You be the judge of whether HD Radio is reliable at a distance! The file may either stream, or be downloaded on a broadband connection. May the "farce" be with you!

http://www.theproductionroom.net/hd.wma

Thanks, but no thanks - I'll stick with my excellent $10 Sony ICF-S10MK2 analog pocket-radio, so I can get more than enough local stations, plus DX nighttime AM, up to 1000 miles. In Maryland, I get 94.7 and 101.9 FM for classic-rock, and DX up to 770 WABC AM Saturday nights, for their nostalgic 1960's oldies night. So see, I don't care that much about audio quality, with my Sony's 2 1/4" speaker, and don't need the over-kill of the extra HD channels - but the one thing I do care about, and that is CONTENT !

 

[hipporadio]

Thanks, but no thanks - I'll stick with my excellent $10 Sony ICF-S10MK2 analog pocket-radio, so I can get more than enough local stations, plus DX nighttime AM, up to 1000 miles. In Maryland, I get 94.7 and 101.9 FM for classic-rock, and DX up to 770 WABC AM Saturday nights, for their nostalgic 1960's oldies night. So see, I don't care that much about audio quality, with my Sony's 2 1/4" speaker, and don't need the over-kill of the extra HD channels - but the one thing I do care about, and that is CONTENT !

'700... With ALL DUE RESPECT my friend--we are NOT talking about "Saturday Night Oldies" on WABC (GOD I loved that station), your Classic Rock outlet in metro-DC, or the 1000-mile "DX" on your $10 Sony pocket radio. Mike has taken the time and spent the effort to digitally-record THREE North Carolina stations in HD, compress them in a VERY HIGH bitrate quality format, then suffer the COST of bandwidth to host that file on his website--so that we may actually witness what we are discussing here. I'd give him a "chuck on the back" for doing that... It contributes GREATLY to this forum.

 

[700WLW]

Thanks, but no thanks - I'll stick with my excellent $10 Sony ICF-S10MK2 analog pocket-radio, so I can get more than enough local stations, plus DX nighttime AM, up to 1000 miles. In Maryland, I get 94.7 and 101.9 FM for classic-rock, and DX up to 770 WABC AM Saturday nights, for their nostalgic 1960's oldies night. So see, I don't care that much about audio quality, with my Sony's 2 1/4" speaker, and don't need the over-kill of the extra HD channels - but the one thing I do care about, and that is CONTENT !

'700... With ALL DUE RESPECT my friend--we are NOT talking about "Saturday Night Oldies" on WABC (GOD I loved that station), your Classic Rock outlet in metro-DC, or the 1000-mile "DX" on your $10 Sony pocket radio. Mike has taken the time and spent the effort to digitally-record THREE North Carolina stations in HD, compress them in a VERY HIGH bitrate quality format, then suffer the COST of bandwidth to host that file on his website--so that we may actually witness what we are discussing here. I'd give him a "chuck on the back" for doing that... It contributes GREATLY to this forum.

Yes, that was nice of him to do that, but it is just a promotional piece for HD Radio.

 

[4dude]

The last station in my opinion didnt have very much BASS!! It was like it was in the AM mode and not FM.. (102.9)

 

[Chuck]

The last station in my opinion didnt have very much BASS!! It was like it was in the AM mode and not FM.. (102.9)

I'm not sure what you are listening on. I'll agree that the last station did not sound as good as the others, but it definitely did not sound like AM to me. This particular computer uses a pair of Bose speakers, no subwoofer. All the samples sounded quite good.

Thanks Mike for posting them. My experience with HD demos is they always sound fine, but they have always been well within the station's 60 dbu contour. I'm amazed that you are getting the HD-2 signals at that distance. Perhaps there is hope.

 

[Mike Walker]

"The Dude", the bass is not artifically boosted the way it is with the overprocessing of most fm stations (i.e. WTQR's HD1 sample from this demo!) I have "Songs in the key of life" by Stevie Wonder, and the Abba album with "Knowing Me, Knowing You" on cd, and the frequency balance is about the same as the recordings (neither are bassy. Most pop recordings in the 70s weren't!) They both DO sound more dynamic than the HD2 stream, however. I think that's because they're not through tweaking the HD2 audio (according to the engineer at Lite 102.9 I spoke with today). In a week to ten days it should sound "much better".

If you want "thumpin' bass", then HD Radio is probably not for you. It's not hyped. Not exaggerated. At it's best, it's simply what's on the recording (or in the studio). Like the first part of the demo, from WDAV. LISTEN to how clean the female announcer's voice is, with ZERO background noise. It's like she's in the room with you (or in your head, through headphones). THAT is what HD's about...when it's done right. THE TRUTH!

 

[tomservo]

Mike I really appreciate you going through the trouble to put that work together. Nice voice!

The only HD samples I've heard previously were from iBiquity's site and they sounded "too good".

The classical station - wow, that was good. But the other stations. Blah. Better than what I've heard on XM (or Sirius), but not by a very wide margin. And certainly not as good as a crystal-clear well processed analog FM station. There are a few of those around, here and there.

If I had the money and there was an HD station or 6 nearby, I'd really consider getting the HD unit from RS, since it also has AM stereo... But there is nothing in HD here in Nowhere, MS, 38901. Or AM stereo. Or heck, AM at all for that matter.

Now if I were back in B'ham, it would be very worthwhile...

These FM stations that are "going digital" would be wise to do as little processing as possible to the HD streams. They seem to sound best when not overworked.

Maybe - maybe - if the radio guys can bully their way into OEM car stereos like satellite has been doing, they may stand a chance at success. But, geez. Content, guys! Content!

PS: Isn't it ironic that the band that most needs saving is the one that is suffering the most under this new technology?

 

[Mike Walker]

You're right Zach. While HD is potentially a great leap forward in quality (in terms of noise/dynamic range, distortion, separation), the dominant negative on WTQR (the country station) and WLYT (the light rock station) wasn't "analog nasties" from fm stereo. It was too damn much processing, squeezing the ever-lovin'-crap out of the audio.

Get the audio clean FIRST. Clean mono is better than bad stereo. A well produced lp with a quiet surface is better than a mediocre cd. Clean analog fm stereo on a really good tuner (with roof antenna and rotor...so many ifs!) is damn good...certainly better than some of what you heard on my HD sample.

To me the thing isn's "is digital better than analog". Both have their strengths (and weaknesses). It's, "which will perform better the way real people use radio". HD with a simple antenna (rabbit ears, a wire dipole) will give results that analog fm stereo would often require a pretty elaborate antenna to approach. That is a HUGE plus in my opinion. But I'm an "audio nerd". The "power app" for the general public is probably extra channels (on HD2, HD3, HD12? GOD I HOPE NOT!)...which makes "audio nerds" uneasy, because the more channels, the lower the bitrate for each!

 

[Tom Wells]

I think the very good results at such a distance have more to do with terrain and and lack of multipath reflectors in the area.
Any multipath from the "citified" area of the antenna, by that distance, is largely time-aligned as to be decodable.
Especially if there are hills to deflect and loss out the multipath.


In analog TV, ghosts in the picture are displaced by the time difference as received, and while they may be awful close-in, and suffer from
building reflections and airplane reflections, such signals often look better as one goes farther out, until at some point, the ghosts are GONE, and the original signal may provide fine reception, until it gets snowy.

It would certainly be possible that the terrain is acting a "funnel for RF", bouncing it favorably to you.
At 30 miles, both original and mutlipath are stronger, and more likely to be not time-aligned, causing problems.

I certainly do beleive the results you're citing, while I think this better than most users will experience.

 

[KE4KLS_Radio]

Mike,

I was quite impressed with the "smoothness" of the HD sound. Sounds to me WDAV has done its homework and looked at their entire audio chain in addition to the HD transmission....

 

[ElCheapo]

The "power app" for the general public is probably extra channels (on HD2, HD3, HD12? GOD I HOPE NOT!)...which makes "audio nerds" uneasy, because the more channels, the lower the bitrate for each!

You don't have to worry much about 12 HD channels per frequency - there's only 8 in the spec.

If stations ever decide to kill the analog component and go fully digital, 4 to 5 channels per frequency wouldn't be unheard of, but I seriously doubt we'll ever see a real world HD8.

 

[tomservo]

I never thought I'd see the day when DirecTV was shoehorning 20-something television markets worth of local channels onto their main satellite... But they did it, much to the detriment of overall picture quality, especially for those of us with bigger & better TV's.

Truth is, if they can, every radio station will eventually cram the bandwidth to its maximum limit in the name of the holy dollar. Quality? Pshaw, what's that? Satellite TV's done it, digital cable is doing it, satellite radio's doing it... What's to stop any other digital medium from being ruined?

 

[Mike Walker]

Great theory Tom (about the lack of multipath in my area). I should take a picture of the surrounding terrain in my yard and mail it to you. There are tall mountains and hills in every direction but due east. The terrain (foothills of Western NC...specifically I'm in Boomer, if you'd like to check it out on a topographical map) is VERY "bumpy". Some peaks in the general area approach 6,000 feet. FM reception in this area has always been difficult. A short drive to Hickory, where it's flatter, results in immensely better analog fm reception.

This is a VERY multipath-rich environment. And around here HD works much better under multipath conditions than analog. Next theory

 

[Mike Walker]

KE4KLS_Radio, WDAV pays extraordinary attention to audio quality (as do many well financed public stations). I haven't been in their studios in a few years, but it was kind of jaw-dropping when I was there. They were very early to record local orchestras digitally (on dat). They just built entirely new facilities about two years ago. There was a feature about it in Radio World.

We need more stations like that!

I forget who it was that talked about "shoehorning" as many channels in as possible. Some will undoubtedly do that (WFAE in Charlotte, licensed to UNC Charlotte...another public station) briefly experimented with HD3. STOP IT GUYS!