Monster Ratings for Connecticut's Country 92.5 WWYZ

[davideduardo]

Spanish language and hip-hop stations draw advertisers who are specifically interested in reaching Hispanic or "urban" groups, with the money budgeted in those directions from the get go. Or the advertising is sold to businesses within those communities, like ethnic food companies, or hip hop clubs.

That is only partially true... a smaller and smaller part as time goes by, too.

I can't tell you how many cases of buys from agencies I've seen come into high-rated Spanish language stations with no Spanish copy or spots. A call-back gets a "Oh, I did not know you were in Spanish" and, generally, a solution is found for translation or production. Those are general market buys.

And general market buys include African American and Hispanic targeted stations more and more. Remember, the FCC had an inquiry about "No Spanish" and "No Urban" dictates on buys, and now requires wording on broadcast contracts that "certifies" that the buy does not discriminate... a vague but compelling reason not to ignore stations that serve specific minorities.

Stations of all kinds compete for general market buys... and as long as they make the demo targets of the client at the right CPP, they generally get bought. Yes, there are some clients that ignore, to their own loss, certain segments, but they are fewer and fewer as time goes by.

Country stations, on the other hand, are in competition for advertising dollars that are aimed at the wider more generic population, and are therefore in competition with other music and spoken word formats for the same business.

As are urban, urban AC, Regional Mexican, Spanish AC, tropipop and similar formated stations.

While it hopefully is true that the big media buying agencies acting on behalf of major national advertisers now just go by a formula of demographics, ratings and spot price, Country stations usually look for a lot of regional and local advertisers and that is where this perception of poorer than AC, or all news listeners can become a problem.

Having managed a country station in a medium market (represented by the very high-class Crystal rep firm back then) I can tell you that we took the largest share of national and regional buys in the market, and the competition was only based on CPP and meeting the target age demos.

If everything was just by the numbers, radio stations could replace their sales people with media buying websites similar to the way we order books from Amazon.

That is what is being developed... but it is at the client side that this originates, with stations presenting via the web by filling in pricing and other data, which the agency runs against ratings data to find the best efficiencies.

The bottom line is that in the NYC area, likely Country Music radio listeners are a smaller minority than the limited number of available commercial FM frequencies can provide a spot for, and as spoken word formats, like all news, or sports talk, move over to the FM band in competitive pairs, the crunch keeping Country out will only get worse.

The issue is one of potential audience, but not of buyer rejection. In NYC there is a smaller potential audience than most places due to the ethnic and immigrant populations, as well as the fact that there is not much of a country lifestyle to have kept the format alive in NY during the ups and downs of the music itself. If a country station could get a 3.5 share 25-54, you can bet it would be on the buys and would likely have a greater than 1.0 power ration, just as is seen in other markets.




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[Steve Green NEPA]

Fine thread. Two things stand out so far.

Tony Santiago's symbiotic support, and WEMP.

In a reciprocal way to Tony, I'm not a big fan of Dance and lean far more to Country. But I had Pulse 87.7 among the streaming sites on favourites during their startup and through all that commotion, and found it pretty listenable. Point here is that Pulse seemed to be doing pretty darned good cume-wise when it was in the radio-forum heyday. And that was WITH a more generic Dance station as competition -- and a very successful one.

Someone posted about a barrel-bottom FM station having nothing to lose by going Country. That eventuality has gotta be one of the bigger 'given's. And it's been some time now since New York City had a major FM station rated so low. (Jack-FM had better numbers.)
If WEMP's 0.5 stuff lasts through the holidays, even they will have to admit what a lot of people already are climbing over each other admitting for them. They'd indeed be at the bottom of that very barrel. At that point : yee-hah and want a refill, anyone?

 

[Barry]

Country music on 101.9 may reach many of the female demos that their programmer Merlin Media is looking for.
And programming country should cost a fraction of the the expensive news/fluff format they are currently running. Promote it to the same soccer mom suburban NJ/LI demos that WPLJ reaches, and they may grab a good share of their revenues.

 

[TonySantiago]

Fine thread. Two things stand out so far.

Tony Santiago's symbiotic support, and WEMP.

In a reciprocal way to Tony, I'm not a big fan of Dance and lean far more to Country. But I had Pulse 87.7 among the streaming sites on favourites during their startup and through all that commotion, and found it pretty listenable. Point here is that Pulse seemed to be doing pretty darned good cume-wise when it was in the radio-forum heyday. And that was WITH a more generic Dance station as competition -- and a very successful one.

I have a story to share.

In 1996, just after WYNY (Country 103.5) dropped the format followed by a week of stunting which eventually led to 'KTU, there was a lady that was trying to rally everyone to bring a country music station back to the New York radio dial. They had a meeting at a country dance club in New Hyde Park, LI. Granted, I looked out of place next to everyone in there with their cowboy hats dancing to the latest country hits at the time but I have to say it was a fun time. I also told the people that soon enough you would have a country station since that music is much stronger than dance in terms of mainstream popularity. Eventually a Long Island station on 94.3 did run the format, then 107.1 WYNY happened.

To that, I have to say that if you and others feel that there should be a country music station on the FM dial in New York City proper, you have to fight for it. You have to get people together, prove the demographics; if you can get artists behind you that would be fantastic! Basically you have to be heard. It sounds crazy, believe me, but a country music "coalition" has to be created. I can't do it...I run my own, but someone who is into country music as deep as I am into dance music has to spearhead that fight.

Regarding ethnicity, my dad (rest his soul) who was from Puerto Rico, used to listen to Merle Haggard, George Jones, Ronnie Milsap..basically a lot of country music from the 70's and 80's. He used to tune in to WHN. I also knew a girl, about 16, Puerto Rican from Connecticut that listens to country music. I bring that up because there are perhaps more Latinos out there that listen to country than we realize. Lyrically, there are certain similarities with country and salsa/merengue/bachata music. In that sense, don't totally rule us out

Point with Pulse, they did break ground in terms of certain edginess that was lacking from 'KTU's strict mainstream approach. I'll even go as far to say, if anything, that what is happening now with dance music surging has somewhat to do with Pulse 87's approach.

 

[MarcB]

I agree with you Tony about Hispanics and Country Music. I hear a lot of Hispanics in DC listen to the Country Station down there 98.7 FM.

 

[LibertyNT]

If I'm not mistaken Country Music is pretty popular in Mexico as well.
(I think it's called Ranchero down there)

 

[CTListener]

If I'm not mistaken Country Music is pretty popular in Mexico as well.
(I think it's called Ranchero down there)

I'd imagine country does pretty well among the more assimilated Mexican-Americans in the Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California markets. There are a lot of similarities between northern Mexican popular music and country. I don't hear the same similarities between country and the tropical/Caribbean sounds that dominate in the big Eastern markets. It's hard to imagine the audience that jumped so wholeheartedly aboard the reggaeton fad of the mid-'00s going for country music at all, no matter what form it's currently taking.

 

[davideduardo]

If I'm not mistaken Country Music is pretty popular in Mexico as well.
(I think it's called Ranchero down there)

"Ranchera" (and its cousins norteña, banda, grupera and durangüense) is the "country music" of Mexico. But the music is as dissimilar as Van Halen is from Barry Manilow. It's compared to country because it has blue collar, working class appeal, not because it has any musical similarities.

U.S. country music is not at all popular in Mexico. Save a rare pop crossover by a country artist, it is never heard or broadcast on the radio anywhere there.

 

[davideduardo]

I agree with you Tony about Hispanics and Country Music. I hear a lot of Hispanics in DC listen to the Country Station down there 98.7 FM.

Urban legend. The station enormously underindexes on Hispanic listening.

 

[davideduardo]

I'd imagine country does pretty well among the more assimilated Mexican-Americans in the Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California markets.

I'd probably be nit picking, but "assimilation" has a suggestion of changing from one thing to another. The "Hispanics" who listen to country are generally very late generation... 4th, 5th, 6th, beyond. This is where we get into the discussion of what is and is not "Hispanic." Was Jerry García Hispanic?

In places like New Mexico, parts of Texas and the agricultural area of CA, there are indeed Hispanics in the country audience. But in places where the huge majority are first and second generation, like LA, Houston, Dallas, Denver, etc., there is little usage.

There are a lot of similarities between northern Mexican popular music and country.

There is a crossover feel between Tejano (TexMex, conjunto) and country, but I don't see much in the music played in northern Mexico today.

I don't hear the same similarities between country and the tropical/Caribbean sounds that dominate in the big Eastern markets. It's hard to imagine the audience that jumped so wholeheartedly aboard the reggaeton fad of the mid-'00s going for country music at all, no matter what form it's currently taking.

Absolutely. That's a very good point. The bulk of the Caribbean heritage audience grew up under the influence of afroantillean music, like salsa and merengue and cumbia. The relationship with country is measured in negative numbers, despite the anecdotal references included in this thread.

 

[TheBigA]

A few years ago, Edison Research (based in NJ!) came out with a study that suggested a great potential audience for country music among American Hispanics. I remember reading testimony from country PDs in Texas and South Florida talking about how they'd achieved increased ratings by playing music that would appeal to Hispanics. Some record labels even attempted to cash in on that by signing Hispanic country singers. It would be interesting to revisit that study today.

I don't have any facts on this, but such a study would fly in the face of the current balkinization of musical audiences. Why would a Hispanic immigrant listen to American country radio to get maybe one or two songs he'd relate to, when he has his choice of half a dozen stations where almost all the music suits his personal taste?

 

[yossefgershon]

I guess that wdby does not have any impact on wwwz

 

[davideduardo]

I don't have any facts on this, but such a study would fly in the face of the current balkinization of musical audiences. Why would a Hispanic immigrant listen to American country radio to get maybe one or two songs he'd relate to, when he has his choice of half a dozen stations where almost all the music suits his personal taste?

That study was commissioned by the CMA, and the focus was on later-generation Hispanics. Those who retained very little of their heritage were candidates for listening to a variety of formats.

Country has a considerable lyric component, and those who are not fluent in English and who did not grow up in a market with a big country lifestyle have no interest in the music.

On the other hand, in San Antonio, where less than a quarter of Hispanics are Spanish dominant and many Hispanics are in the fifth generation and beyond, Hispanics are just as likely as anyone else to listen.

Given the high percentage of Spanish dominants in most markets, the potential for country among Hispanics is very limited.

 

[CTListener]

One factor nobody's brought up so far is the thousands upon thousands of English-speaking, non-minority suburbanites who work in New York City. Wouldn't their huge listening presence in drive times and not insubstantial listening presence in the workplace provide enough of a foundation for a heavily promoted country music station to win a 3.5 to 4.0 share, even if the 40 percent of NYC residents who still speak Spanish as their primary language have little interest in the genre? Few people of any description listen to radio at home in the evenings or overnight, so I'd think you could safely ignore those dayparts if there's enough potential in the money dayparts, right?

 

[davideduardo]

One factor nobody's brought up so far is the thousands upon thousands of English-speaking, non-minority suburbanites who work in New York City. Wouldn't their huge listening presence in drive times and not insubstantial listening presence in the workplace provide enough of a foundation for a heavily promoted country music station to win a 3.5 to 4.0 share, even if the 40 percent of NYC residents who still speak Spanish as their primary language have little interest in the genre? Few people of any description listen to radio at home in the evenings or overnight, so I'd think you could safely ignore those dayparts if there's enough potential in the money dayparts, right?

First, essentially all the commuting distance suburbs are part of the NYC radio market. It does not matter where the residents of the market go, their listening counts in the NYC book.

Second, listeners "count" based on the county where they reside, not where they may travel to. In other words, if you live in the Hartford market and travel in to the NY market and listen to a NY market station while there, the listening is recorded in the book for the market you live in.

40% of NYC is not Hispanic. Try 20% of the market. And, of that group, about 45% are English dominant or bilingual... or about 10% of the market.

Since in NYC, based on the last break-out data we have, only about 25% of listening is in the car. The rest is in-home and at work.

You can't ignore nights, as, despite a lower PUR, they still are included in the average. And you forget weekends, which in the PPM represent about 25% of listening, with far less of it being at work.

Nights: 9.4 million people 12+ listen weekly in the daypar, out of 15.7 million total 12+ persons in the market. Not a group to be ignored.

 

[TheBigA]

Wouldn't their huge listening presence in drive times and not insubstantial listening presence in the workplace provide enough of a foundation for a heavily promoted country music station to win a 3.5 to 4.0 share,

My estimate, based on previous format history, comparative numbers in similar markets, and other factors like airplay of country artists on non-country stations in the market, is closer to a 2.5 or 2.7. But it would take a few years and lots of investment to get there. And I think the demos would be pretty good. But even then, it would underbill other formats with similar numbers. And I think that's the reason no one's done it in NY.

 

[e-dawg]

YOU should look at the other coast. In San Francisco, we don't have a full market country music station. The nearest Country station is 95.3 KRTY in San Jose, which is a Class-A station. Country tried several times in the Bay area, but all failed. The last one was 95.7 THE WOLF which did poorly in the ratings. San Francisco has similar demographics to New York City, in terms of Minority-Majority city. Why would you think country will work in New York City. If they did, then it will be a 1.5 share.

 

[TimeIsTight]

DavidEduardo, you really have made this a very interesting thread, and I, for one, have learned some things I didn't know, particularly about Hispanic radio.

I am curious about a couple of points you made that seem to suggest that radio spots are now being purchased purely on ratings within an age group, and that traditional psychographic, or lifestyle data associated with certain formats is now being ignored by the agencies and the marketing people who pay the bills.

Remember, the FCC had an inquiry about "No Spanish" and "No Urban" dictates on buys, and now requires wording on broadcast contracts that "certifies" that the buy does not discriminate... a vague but compelling reason not to ignore stations that serve specific minorities.

While I am sure that legal requirement is true, looking at this as a client in charge of a marketing campaign to increase the subscription rate among young adults for The New York Times newspaper, even though the ratings, age demos, geography and spot prices work, any agency that placed a lot of ads on Hip Hop, and Spanish language stations would be fired because the Return On Investment would be so poor. In addition to age and ratings, good marketers have to take lifestyle data into account too. In this case, the education and income level of NY Times readers within that demo would suggest the most likely ad targets would not be expected to listen to Hip Hop or Hispanic stations in any significant numbers.

Since the 1950s, radio stations have selected their formats to serve certain market slices, where lifestyle differences like education, income etc. can be even more important than age differences for advertising placement. You want to sell grand pianos you put the spots on a classical station, age demo matters not.

An ad for a Hip Hop concert won't be effective on a Country station, and likely neither would an ad for high end Rolex watches or Mercedes cars even though the age demos are in the ballpark. Radio formats can trend toward certain lifestyle choices, and smart advertisers have to be tuned into those differences, as well as age differences, to do their job effectively and get the best return on investment in advertising.

It isn't discrimination, it is just common sense business use of available observable data that reflects reality. It is Marketing 101, in the print world you have "The New Yorker" and you have "The National Enquirer" and they don't have advertisers in common.
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I hadn't heard about this client originated web-based radio spot buying system, it is interesting stuff.

If everything was just by the numbers, radio stations could replace their sales people with media buying websites similar to the way we order books from Amazon.

That is what is being developed... but it is at the client side that this originates, with stations presenting via the web by filling in pricing and other data, which the agency runs against ratings data to find the best efficiencies.

This could be a very interesting development that leads to the further commoditization of the radio spot market, similar to Google's ad model where potential advertisers have to bid against each other for top placement.

The day may be coming when many, especially music, radio stations are nothing more than computers that play the content, and the available spots are purchased, and commercials fed over the internet by advertisers with almost no human intervention.

There was a time when an FCC First Class license was needed on premises whenever stations were transmitting, announcers and newscasters have been eliminated by automation, remote feeds and voice tracking, and the sales staff's days may now be numbered too.

 

[TheBigA]

Country tried several times in the Bay area, but all failed. The last one was 95.7 THE WOLF which did poorly in the ratings.

That doesn't tell the real story. KSAN was a huge success, a Top 10 station in town. Then it got sold four time in one year, and it got screwed up. But before that, it had ten years of huge numbers. The Wolf was a success for the first couple of years. Then the owners messed around with it, and the numbers went down. But before that happened, they were getting a 2.5, which is about what Country would do in NYC.

 

[CTListener]

Country tried several times in the Bay area, but all failed. The last one was 95.7 THE WOLF which did poorly in the ratings.

That doesn't tell the real story. KSAN was a huge success, a Top 10 station in town. Then it got sold four time in one year, and it got screwed up. But before that, it had ten years of huge numbers. The Wolf was a success for the first couple of years. Then the owners messed around with it, and the numbers went down. But before that happened, they were getting a 2.5, which is about what Country would do in NYC.

How did they "mess around with it"? Go too twangy for the market? Get rid of popular DJs? Widen the playlist? Narrow the playlist? I'm asking because WWYZ has been a ratings winner from the day it flipped from soft AC to country (in 1988) as a mom-and-pop operation through several ownership changes all the way to today as a high-energy Clear Channel hit country station.