Monster Ratings for Connecticut's Country 92.5 WWYZ

[Jay F]

How did they "mess around with it"? Go too twangy for the market? Get rid of popular DJs? Widen the playlist? Narrow the playlist?

All of the above. First they changed the PD, then the music got too unfamiliar, they replaced the evening show with syndication. Lost half their cume in a few months. Now they're FM sports talk. That format's not doing so good either.

They (WOLF/SF) also quit playing any songs with a rural theme, including some of the biggest hits on the Country chart.

 

[ansky212]

One point that nobody has mentioned yet...NYC is full of transplants that moved here from all over the country. You can't assume everyone living in NYC grew up here or immigrated from another country. I am friends with several people that moved here from the Midwest and grew up listening to country music, and now living in NYC they can't find it on the dial. Also, nobody is accepting the possibility that musical tastes can change or broaden. Just because someone spent the past 10 years listening to top 40 CHR doesn't mean they can't ever listen to country and like it. I just started listening to country 3 years ago and it has since become my favorite genre of music.

Also, everyone keeps saying that country won't work because it only appeals to people in the suburbs. That seems to work fine for stations like WPLJ and WAXQ, and you could probably even throw WWFS in there too.

 

[davideduardo]

One point that nobody has mentioned yet...NYC is full of transplants that moved here from all over the country. You can't assume everyone living in NYC grew up here or immigrated from another country. I am friends with several people that moved here from the Midwest and grew up listening to country music, and now living in NYC they can't find it on the dial. Also, nobody is accepting the possibility that musical tastes can change or broaden. Just because someone spent the past 10 years listening to top 40 CHR doesn't mean they can't ever listen to country and like it.

The point of the ethnicity / immigrant discussion is to point out that there are large groups of the NYC MSA population which are known to severely underindex in usage of country stations.

Recent generation Hispanics make very, very limited use of country, wherever in the US you go. While very late generation Hispanics may use country in markets like San Antonio, the bulk of Hispanics in NYC are first and second generation and are generally Caribbean in origin, making them very poor candidates for a "country conversion."

African Americans index low on country nearly anywhere you go. That should come as no surprise.

And people who emigrate from another country to the US generally arrive as young adults, with musical tastes relatively matured. Add in language issues for many immigrants, and you have another situation where few if any members of that group will take a liking to country.

Altogether, those groups may be as much as 55% of the MSA population, meaning that the remaining segment would contain virtually all the potential listeners. If country could get a 5 share in a less diverse market, it would get a 2 to a 2.5 in NY just on that analysis... without getting into the challenges in a format that has not been in the market for a long time.

All these are among the reasons why there is not a country station now. Of course, this post will generate another bunch of anecdotal n=1 sample size comments...

 

[TheBigA]

If country could get a 5 share in a less diverse market, it would get a 2 to a 2.5 in NY just on that analysis... without getting into the challenges in a format that has not been in the market for a long time.

And that is a big problem. Lots of artists have come along in that time, and the population has had virtually no exposure to them. Some of them are among the most popular on a traditional country station, like Brad Paisley, Toby Keith, or Kenny Chesney. Artists like Blake Shelton or Trace Adkins have had exposure through TV, but they've not had cross-over hits. It's almost like programming country music in a foreign country. Who do you play? Almost all the music from the past ten years would be unfamiliar. The record labels are going to want to push their new artists and new releases, and there's simply no foundation for them to build on.

 

[DToTheJ]

...In 1996, just after WYNY (Country 103.5) dropped the format followed by a week of stunting which eventually led to 'KTU... They had a meeting at a country dance club in New Hyde Park, LI... told the people that soon enough you would have a country station since that music is much stronger than dance in terms of mainstream popularity. Eventually a Long Island station on 94.3 did run the format, then 107.1 WYNY happened...

IIRC, AM 740 had flipped to country on the heels of WYNY dropping the format. Of course, who wants to hear IBOC mixed in with their twang, right? :

 

[ansky212]

And that is a big problem. Lots of artists have come along in that time, and the population has had virtually no exposure to them. Some of them are among the most popular on a traditional country station, like Brad Paisley, Toby Keith, or Kenny Chesney. Artists like Blake Shelton or Trace Adkins have had exposure through TV, but they've not had cross-over hits. It's almost like programming country music in a foreign country. Who do you play? Almost all the music from the past ten years would be unfamiliar. The record labels are going to want to push their new artists and new releases, and there's simply no foundation for them to build on.

You're not giving listeners any credit. Like I mentioned above, I have been living in the NYC area for over 15 years, and just started listening to country about 3 years ago. I started listening to stations like WWYZ (since I travel up to that area often) and I really liked what I heard. I had never heard of 90% of the artists they were playing at the time, and now I know them all. With some good marketing I think it could work...

 

[CTListener]

No matter how sure we are that country will or won't work in NYC, nobody here -- including those with all the statistics about "underindexing" -- can be 100 percent sure unless some station tries it. But if the consultants and the ad agencies are unanimous that format won't fly, I guess the risk outweighs any potential reward. At this point, I'd like to hear a roaring success or a noble failure just to settle the question ... but then, it's not my money that would be at risk.

 

[Jeffrey]

And that is a big problem. Lots of artists have come along in that time, and the population has had virtually no exposure to them. Some of them are among the most popular on a traditional country station, like Brad Paisley, Toby Keith, or Kenny Chesney. Artists like Blake Shelton or Trace Adkins have had exposure through TV, but they've not had cross-over hits. It's almost like programming country music in a foreign country. Who do you play? Almost all the music from the past ten years would be unfamiliar. The record labels are going to want to push their new artists and new releases, and there's simply no foundation for them to build on.

You're not giving listeners any credit. Like I mentioned above, I have been living in the NYC area for over 15 years, and just started listening to country about 3 years ago. I started listening to stations like WWYZ (since I travel up to that area often) and I really liked what I heard. I had never heard of 90% of the artists they were playing at the time, and now I know them all. With some good marketing I think it could work...

Ansky212 I give you credit for plugging away with an optimistic view regarding a country station. I feel the same about other formats missing from the dial. The reality however is that you can't ignore the sighted examples and facts of why there is no country station here. Having several transplants in NYC from the midwest who might want to listen to country from time to time is not enough to generate enough ratings to sell advertising not to mention the fact that I would wager to say that most Americans who gravitate towards a city like NY wouldn't typically be big country fans to begin with.
We might feel there is nothing to lose by trying the format but it is not our dollar or investment capital at stake.
Fortunately there are many ways to hear a particular genre of music. Internet radio is probably the future of radio anyway so why not embrace it early....

 

[Seltzer]

Naysayers------spend an hour and actually listen to the music.

I have...and it STILL is about tractors, trucks, muddin, farming, and other rural subjects. Brad Paisley has songs out called "Ticks" and "Camouflage." Yeah...people living in Manhattan or Bergen are really gonna dig those tunes.

Is country more mainstream than it was 20 years ago? Yes, by a wide margin. But its still redneck music, and still has a drawl to it...Taylor Swift aside. I've worked shifts at country stations, and most of the music is about as appealing to me as a free kick to the nuts. Hearing about Jesus, mamma, and GOD BLESS MURRRICA over and over again gets REALLY old.

You can't make a format out of Carrier Underwood, Taylor Swift, Keith Urban and the other crossover tunes - there just aren't enough.

Just the same as I wouldn't do Jammin Oldies in East Bumblef*ck West Virginia, I wouldn't do country in NYC. I get it...you love the music. I love oldies. Guess what? I got a smartphone with unlimited data and a 32gig SD card. The fact that there aren't any oldies stations is now a non issues with TuneIn and a nice MP3 collection when I can't find something on there to suit my tastes.

This subject has been beaten to death - David Eduardo, as usual, is right about why nobody with a full B signal on Empire would go country at the moment. Much like the oldies die hards who kvetch about not hearing "In The Still Of The Night", it falls on deaf ears. If you really think country is a gold mine in NYC just sitting there, buy time on WVIP and try to sell ads for it. Let us know how it goes.

I never said crossover tunes. I said the contemporary artists; Taylor Swift, Carrie Underwood, Keith Urban, Lady Antebellum, The Band Perry, Jason Aldean, the Zac Brown Band. and more mainstream artists like Kenny Chesney, Tim McGraw, Miranda Lambert, Faith Hill. There's enough music out there to avoid the real twangy stuff.

I just don't believe that the only form of music that will work in New York deals with killing cops and humping big butts. Someone in New York could make a living doing country.

 

[Jeffrey]

Naysayers------spend an hour and actually listen to the music.

I have...and it STILL is about tractors, trucks, muddin, farming, and other rural subjects. Brad Paisley has songs out called "Ticks" and "Camouflage." Yeah...people living in Manhattan or Bergen are really gonna dig those tunes.

Is country more mainstream than it was 20 years ago? Yes, by a wide margin. But its still redneck music, and still has a drawl to it...Taylor Swift aside. I've worked shifts at country stations, and most of the music is about as appealing to me as a free kick to the nuts. Hearing about Jesus, mamma, and GOD BLESS MURRRICA over and over again gets REALLY old.

You can't make a format out of Carrier Underwood, Taylor Swift, Keith Urban and the other crossover tunes - there just aren't enough.

Just the same as I wouldn't do Jammin Oldies in East Bumblef*ck West Virginia, I wouldn't do country in NYC. I get it...you love the music. I love oldies. Guess what? I got a smartphone with unlimited data and a 32gig SD card. The fact that there aren't any oldies stations is now a non issues with TuneIn and a nice MP3 collection when I can't find something on there to suit my tastes.

This subject has been beaten to death - David Eduardo, as usual, is right about why nobody with a full B signal on Empire would go country at the moment. Much like the oldies die hards who kvetch about not hearing "In The Still Of The Night", it falls on deaf ears. If you really think country is a gold mine in NYC just sitting there, buy time on WVIP and try to sell ads for it. Let us know how it goes.

I never said crossover tunes. I said the contemporary artists; Taylor Swift, Carrie Underwood, Keith Urban, Lady Antebellum, The Band Perry, Jason Aldean, the Zac Brown Band. and more mainstream artists like Kenny Chesney, Tim McGraw, Miranda Lambert, Faith Hill. There's enough music out there to avoid the real twangy stuff.

I just don't believe that the only form of music that will work in New York deals with killing cops and humping big butts. Someone in New York could make a living doing country.

Have you been to New York?

 

[bigtom101]

I never said crossover tunes. I said the contemporary artists; Taylor Swift, Carrie Underwood, Keith Urban, Lady Antebellum, The Band Perry, Jason Aldean, the Zac Brown Band. and more mainstream artists like Kenny Chesney, Tim McGraw, Miranda Lambert, Faith Hill. There's enough music out there to avoid the real twangy stuff.

I just don't believe that the only form of music that will work in New York deals with killing cops and humping big butts. Someone in New York could make a living doing country.

I like the ZBB - but the other artist you mention are still pretty damn twangy. "Dirt Road Anthem" is about as hick as you can get.

And your caricature about rap music is SO 1988. Who are you, Tipper Gore? DAMN KIDS AND THEIR SAGGY JEANS AND HIPPITY HOP MUSIC!

Also, I like big butts and I cannot lie...

 

[Barry]

I realize we all need to earn a paycheck, but it is unfortunate you've worked at country stations Turner if you hate most of the music. But I would think it is not uncommon for many dj's to dislike the songs they are playing, as radio work is so hard to find.

 

[bigtom101]

I realize we all need to earn a paycheck, but it is unfortunate you've worked at country stations Turner if you hate most of the music. But I would think it is not uncommon for many dj's to dislike the songs they are playing, as radio work is so hard to find.

Not all of it is bad - the ZBB mentioned above usually gets cranked when it comes up in rotation. And I will say the country crowd is the most passionate I have ever seen at events, and some of the nicest people on the face of the Earth.

Being a DJ does require acting ability - I've been fortunate to work at stations where I've loved the music. But a guys gotta work...so you fake it and do your best. After awhile, it all becomes background noise...even at a format you love.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

The point of the ethnicity / immigrant discussion is to point out that there are large groups of the NYC MSA population which are known to severely underindex in usage of country stations.

Recent generation Hispanics make very, very limited use of country, wherever in the US you go. (Etc.)

The same could be said in reverse though. Who listens to Spanish stations except for Hispanics? Does Urban really have such broad appeal to non-African Americans?

Your point is that New York is a diverse city with many immigrants, but then your argument reads as if there are no Caucasians at all living in New York who might be interested in a format that appeals to white people (to be blunt), even though that format does very well in other large markets with high ethnic/urban populations.

Why does a format need to "index well" with every ethnic group in NYC metro to have the slightest chance of being successful? No station in New York has that kind of mass appeal. In fact many of the stations in NYC are far narrower in focus than Country, yet most do quite well for themselves by serving their own segment of the city's diverse population.

 

[davideduardo]

The same could be said in reverse though. Who listens to Spanish stations except for Hispanics? Does Urban really have such broad appeal to non-African Americans?

Your point is that New York is a diverse city with many immigrants, but then your argument reads as if there are no Caucasians at all living in New York who might be interested in a format that appeals to white people (to be blunt), even though that format does very well in other large markets with high ethnic/urban populations.

Why does a format need to "index well" with every ethnic group in NYC metro to have the slightest chance of being successful? No station in New York has that kind of mass appeal. In fact many of the stations in NYC are far narrower in focus than Country, yet most do quite well for themselves by serving their own segment of the city's diverse population.

There are enough African Americans in New York to sustain the existing number of Black targeted stations. The same goes for Spanish language stations. There is also some crossover between assimilated Hispanics and some Black targeted stations. In other words, the group of stations programming to these two groups is large enough to sustain a number of stations, even if all Blacks and all Hispanics do not listen to one or more of them.

However, the same case can not safely be made for country. First, the potential market is reduced to less than half because about 50% to 55% of the market is not going to listen to country in any meaningful number even if you offer them money: that means Blacks, Hispanics and nearly all first generation immigrants.

Then you have the fact that country is not the overwhelming favorite of all the rest of the folks. Since in New York so much of the population is excluded pretty much totally from an possibility of listening, it means a country station has to do very, very well among the remaining group. To get a significant 6+ or 12+ share, it means that the format has to overperform in the salable ages that we know country appeals to outside the established country markets. We'd have to assume that any owner of a station that is underperforming in sales and ratings would have looked at the format... meaning that they determined that the potential was not there.

There are some well honed and reliable methods of doing a format search that would accurately judge the appeal and intent to listen of such a format. Again, that nobody is doing it is a sign that the potential is not there.

Consider what even a low billing station gives up... a year of revenue at a low level... say $15 million... in exchange for a year of nearly no revenue; revenue lags ratings by as much as that, by the way. And then there is no guarantee that the prior billing will be achieved with a less than certain format... so all you may do is trade a low biller for another low biller and lose a year's worth of revenue in the meantime.

 

[MyCatKnight]

Ratings were irrelevant to the clients like Country/Western bars who advertised on Long Island to a fiercely loyal (though not huge) audience. The fans would go to their bars, enjoy a single drink, and not spend enough money to justify the ad campaign. Many of them I met were very sweet people... just not spenders. Have things significantly changed lately?

Did anyone who advertised on Imus' show in its heyday really cared if it broke the top 10, if his audience was spending lots of money?

 

[davideduardo]

Did anyone who advertised on Imus' show in its heyday really cared if it broke the top 10, if his audience was spending lots of money?

Imus was delivering a prime demo.

WFAN, during the years it was the highest billing station in the US, was seldom above 14th in the 12+ ratings. But it had amazing numbers in the target, which was very desirable for advertisers.

Again, the reason why Arbitron gives away 12+ numbers is that they have no value.

 

[Barry]

An article in Radio-Info.com describes how New Jersey's Thunder Country is succeeding with a format customized for the area. They emphasize songs, including some that are not played on many radio stations, that have a rock sound to them. In contrast, ballads are played sparingly.

Rockin' Country: http://www.radio-info.com/programming/country/thunder-106-takes-new-jersey-by-storm

 

[ansky212]

An article in Radio-Info.com describes how New Jersey's Thunder Country is succeeding with a format customized for the area. They emphasize songs, including some that are not played on many radio stations, that have a rock sound to them. In contrast, ballads are played sparingly.

Rockin' Country: http://www.radio-info.com/programming/country/thunder-106-takes-new-jersey-by-storm

Great article. Hopefully the advertising agencies that are involved in NY radio will realize that country music isn't the honkey-tonk stuff it was 20 years ago.

 

[TonySantiago]

Great article. Hopefully the advertising agencies that are involved in NY radio will realize that country music isn't the honkey-tonk stuff it was 20 years ago.

No diss...but these same ad execs think of dance music as "techno" and only for the clubs. They don't "get it" but they have the money so....