moving stations in like ptt and 104.7 and froggy may be a mistake

[thefalcon]

Recent posts are talking about waiting to promote WPTT until the move to 910 Has prompted me to wonder if this shift to move stations into the city of Pittsburgh. Where the ad agencies are( used to be) is the biggest mistake. Our broadcast forefathers knew something. I don't know how they knew that south Buffalo township (sarver, Rostraver, north adams.. butler, evans city, would be the powerful new suburbs. moving 104.7 non directional to 104.7 directional north side. Now looks like a big mistake. taking 98.3 out of charleroi.. to north side might be a mistake too. Now everyone is competing for the same pittsburgh dollars and some of these stations cannot penetrate the new burbs. perfect for cable and satellite tv and radio. Please Don't just type a response.. take the time and check the signals. you can't get some fm's in downtown butler.
The people keep moving further out and we keep pulling the signals in. It's bad for radio.
AM's are the only thing that can hit some of these areas and they have become informercial havens.

 

[kenhawk1160]

Recent posts are talking about waiting to promote WPTT until the move to 910 Has prompted me to wonder if this shift to move stations into the city of Pittsburgh. Where the ad agencies are( used to be) is the biggest mistake. Our broadcast forefathers knew something. I don't know how they knew that south Buffalo township (sarver, Rostraver, north adams.. butler, evans city, would be the powerful new suburbs. moving 104.7 non directional to 104.7 directional north side. Now looks like a big mistake. taking 98.3 out of charleroi.. to north side might be a mistake too. Now everyone is competing for the same pittsburgh dollars and some of these stations cannot penetrate the new burbs. perfect for cable and satellite tv and radio. Please Don't just type a response.. take the time and check the signals. you can't get some fm's in downtown butler.
The people keep moving further out and we keep pulling the signals in. It's bad for radio.
AM's are the only thing that can hit some of these areas and they have become informercial havens.

You are right...Butler does have some FM reception problems due to the terrain. However, that's a blessing because the local FM station in Butler does very well, as do its two sister AM's. I am happy to add that those two AM's are NOT infomercial havens. One plays current and classic country, and the other plays MOR/Nostalgia music, everything from Frank Sinatra to Michael Buble. Both do very well and are proof that a well-marketed, well-promoted, and VERY local station on the AM band CAN succeed.

 

[Radio_Realist]

"I am happy to add that those two AM's are NOT infomercial havens. One plays current and classic country, and the other plays MOR/Nostalgia music, everything from Frank Sinatra to Michael Buble."

It is good for the two local AM stations that they can succeed by finding a market niche to cover and make money with it. And it's good for the fans of country music and pre-oldies music that they can hear the music that they like. And it's good that fans of soft rock and oldies can listen to the Butler FM station.

Everyone else in Butler can get either Sirius or XM.

My son lives and works in Butler. At home and on the job, he listens to XM.

 

[youngabe89]

Well as far as I am concerned the signals here in Pittsburgh are for the most part terribly weak for the places they supposedly cover. I live in Apollo...Washington Township to be exact and where I live the reception sucks...bad. But go out of the road just a little ways...crystal clear...on the way to Plum / Monroeville it breaks up a bit on Route 380 and even on 286. I mean these places are even in Allegheny County and the signal seems to be struggling to adequately cover the area. Froggy 95.5 out of Johnstown, PA is amazing. It's roughly 60 miles away from my home and it comes is PERFECT. It's pretty bad stations no more than 25 miles away struggle to make it. Froggy 95.5 still is audable in Monroeville and on the first parts of I-376. It's annoying big time for me because I like LOCAL FM stations, not XM which is the same everywhere...most people would like it because it is everywhere, but I just like the localness of local stations! Personally I think the transmitters would be better off further up on 28 near the Mills. That way the signal isn't immediately decreased when it has to pass through a lot of obsticals such as Downtown. A lot of large cities have their FM transmitters outside the city in a more open area so the signal doesn't struggle to cover a larger area.

 

[cingram]

moving 104.7 non directional to 104.7 directional north side. Now looks like a big mistake. taking 98.3 out of charleroi.. to north side might be a mistake too.

Sorry, but that's not even close to being true.

Moving 104.7's tower from the suburbs to Pittsburgh is what made the station competitive; it was always hampered by its suburban signal in the WYDD years. Ditto for 100.7.

Moving 98.3's tower from Rostraver to Pittsburgh enabled it to cover about a million people with a primary signal. With Pittsburgh's hilly terrain, you've GOT to have a clear tower shot into the city and Allegheny County, where most of the people still live. Charleroi still has AM 940, which is 100% simulcast with 98.3 anyway.

I'm sorry if this results in poorer reception where you live (around Butler, I presume), but that does not make the move a big mistake. Butler has WISR, WBUT, and WLER, and it is their federally-licensed duty to serve that community.

I do agree with you that, as the market becomes more widespread, it's harder for the stations to cover it all. But most stations that have an opportunity to move in to the "big city" will do so because they'll make more money there than in places like Charleroi.

Incidentally, 104.7 is non-directional at its current site.

 

[Parttimer]

Is Butler County even part of the Arbitron market? It wasn't, although I've heard talk it would be added at some point (and if it's not, Cranberry isn't in the metro. Go figure).

And as for Froggy from Johnstown, it's 50,000 watts on top of a mountian, so yes, it serves Westmoreland County quite well.

 

[Radio_Realist]

"Butler has WISR, WBUT, and WLER, and it is their federally-licensed duty to serve that community."

Or at least to serve those segments of that community who like either country music, per-oldies nostalgia music, or soft rock. Fans of other types of music, spoken word programming, or anything else should stop whining and get Sirius or XM.

 

[cingram]

"Butler has WISR, WBUT, and WLER, and it is their federally-licensed duty to serve that community."

Or at least to serve those segments of that community who like either country music, per-oldies nostalgia music, or soft rock. Fans of other types of music, spoken word programming, or anything else should stop whining and get Sirius or XM.

Or they can listen to the Pittsburgh stations. ;D

With respect to the Butler stations, I was thinking more of the news, talk, and "local information" aspects of their programming, not the music formats.

WMBS in Uniontown, which has newscasts that run until 15 minutes past the hour and even a live nighttime talk show, is a good example of a station that "serves its community" in what I consider a meaningful way, although it's obviously aimed at an older audience and is probably a mystery or a curiosity at best to anyone under 50.

 

[radiomayor2]

operators "move stations in" to bigger markets i hopes of getting a piece of the big pie......

in the case of froggy east liverpool....if they would have been allowed to move they could have done better that staying in east liverpol...due to the economy......

this is different than the 104.7 move.....the signal had audience in p bugh for years.....just not a great audience.....in the ole wydd vs wdve days....wydd always had a good amount of billing.....

most of the time though....move ins don't do all that well...( there are exceptions) but they just don't become a home run.....

 

[Radio_Realist]

"Or they can listen to the Pittsburgh stations."

The point of the sub-thread was that the terrain conditions make listening to Pittsburgh stations in Butler difficult or impossible.

According to my son, who lives in Butler, telling a Butlerite (Butlerian?) to listen to Pittsburgh stations is not far different from telling them to listen to Cleveland or Philadelphia stations.

 

[cingram]

According to my son, who lives in Butler, telling a Butlerite (Butlerian?) to listen to Pittsburgh stations is not far different from telling them to listen to Cleveland or Philadelphia stations.

Well, then they can listen to their local stations, or (as you pointed out) XM or Sirius, especially when their preference is a "niched" music format. But if they feel distanced from the Pittsburgh stations, wouldn't satellite radio feel even worse?

To the post above yours: In the "old WYDD vs. WDVE days," WYDD was always at a competitive disadvantage because of the inferior signal, particularly in the city, where it didn't penetrate the buildings well and got murdered by the intermod from all those towers on the North Side. (WYDD was also at a budgetary disadvantage, but that's another issue.)

Energy 105, where Mike Frazer started in Pittsburgh, failed for the same reason.

100.7, until it became Mix Jamz and moved to Channel 53's tower, did the same.

There is no substitute for a good city-grade signal.

 

[Radio_Realist]

"But if they feel distanced from the Pittsburgh stations, wouldn't satellite radio feel even worse?"

Distanced? Huh? What is "distanced"? Unless the station is playing songs by the Jaggerz, Donnie Iris, or the Clarks, it's all "distant". When a Butlerite wants to hear a particular kind of music, and it isn't country, pre-oldies nostalgia, or soft rock, it doesn't much matter where the room that the guy playing the songs from is located. Even if the transmitter is in the same county as you are, the guy's voice between songs was probably recorded in some other city anyway. Or, the guy came here from some other city and probably doesn't even know when to say "youns" or that "jumbo" is something you put between pieces of bread.

The only "distance" problem the Pittsburgh stations have in Butler is that the hills get in the way of the radio waves. Butlerites have a difficult time receiving Pittsburgh stations on their radios. It has nothing to do with programming content. It has everything to do with the propagation of radio waves. Very few people enjoy listening to music on a radio that has bad reception. That's why few people will listen to music on AM radio, no matter how much they might like the songs. People have been spoiled by good FM signals, scratch-free CD's, and improved sound quality. I realize the stations you work for depend on getting those few people to tune in to your AM stations. So I'm sure you realize what an uphill struggle it is to get music fans to flip the switch on their radios over to AM.

To the vast majority of music format radio listeners, it's all about the music. Take two stations with identical playlists, and then the DJ's, liners, imaging and the like become the tie-breakers. But take two stations with different playlists, and the listeners will pick the one with the most songs that they like 99 times out of 100. And the 100th one will be a current or former radio industry insider.

 

[cingram]

Distanced? Huh? What is "distanced"? Unless the station is playing songs by the Jaggerz, Donnie Iris, or the Clarks, it's all "distant". When a Butlerite wants to hear a particular kind of music, and it isn't country, pre-oldies nostalgia, or soft rock, it doesn't much matter where the room that the guy playing the songs from is located. Even if the transmitter is in the same county as you are, the guy's voice between songs was probably recorded in some other city anyway. Or, the guy came here from some other city and probably doesn't even know when to say "youns" or that "jumbo" is something you put between pieces of bread.

Again, I was thinking of local content, not music formats. When a Butlerian, or whatever the word is, needs to hear local information about approaching severe weather, where do they go? (I know, the answer is probably to the Pittsburgh TV stations or the Weather Channel.)

I agree with your observations about some of the challenges facing AM radio, and people choosing the station that plays the most songs that they like, and I would even say that listeners today are recalcitrant to sit through one song they DON'T like. Personal music advances like file-sharing and iPods have changed the world of music delivery forever.

 

[Radio_Realist]

"When a Butlerian, or whatever the word is, needs to hear local information about approaching severe weather, where do they go?"

Your answer to your own question was partially correct. Many people today go to the Weather Channel, but many more go to the weather information on the internet. There are also services available to get an instant local weather report on one's cell phone.

It might be nice to listen to a local radio station, but since radio is such a linear medium, one must sit through all the other programming until the radio station gets to the weather forecast. If one turns the radio on a second after the weather report, one must wait as long as it takes for the weather to be repeated. But on the Comcast cable service I subscribe to, the Weather Channel has local weather every ten minutes "on the 8's", as they promote it. But there's also Weatherscan on channel 101 that is continuous local weather information.

"Personal music advances like file-sharing and iPods have changed the world of music delivery forever."

Yet those responsible for programming radio station pretend such technologies don't even exist! Otherwise, there would be some noticable changes in what is put out over the air.

 

[inorm99]

Why in god's name would would WPTT's move to 910AM be better than what they have now on 1360AM?!
Compare the 1000 Watt nightime signal that 1360 has: http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WPTT&service=AM&status=L&hours=N

with the authorized 69 Watt lightbulb nightime signal that 910 has: http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WAVL&service=AM&status=L&hours=N

I see no CP for a more powwerful night time signal for 910 as well.
I wonder if the brains at WPTT have exhausted all options with the 1360 signal?

 

[Radio_Realist]

Part of the deal involves relocating the 910 stick.

As for what the "predicted" coverage of 1360 is that's shown on the website you linked to, all I know is that I live inside the inner red zone, and I cannot pick up 1360 after sundown at all.

 

[Johnny Morgan]

Norm--

There's no CP for a nighttime signal for the 910 move because they can't plan anything for it until they own the moved frequency. Until then, if the FCC was willing to entertain the application at all, no one would be willing to sit own and negotiate with Renda because he can't promise them anything in return for their signal alterations.

Once the 910 move is approved, though, getting nighttime increase is a minor change, which is pretty easy to accomplish (or so they say).

 

[kenhawk1160]

There's no CP for a nighttime signal for the 910 move because they can't plan anything for it until they own the moved frequency. Until then, if the FCC was willing to entertain the application at all, no one would be willing to sit own and negotiate with Renda because he can't promise them anything in return for their signal alterations.

Once the 910 move is approved, though, getting nighttime increase is a minor change, which is pretty easy to accomplish (or so they say).

There's also something else that no one else has figured upon. A channel swap could cause some legal problems, because you would be literally sitting on top of 1380 in Kittanning, two clicks up the dial and a mere 15 miles away from 910's current site in Apollo. The FCC would not allow a swap on the same set of sticks at each station. 1360 would have to change it's city of license (and proof of why they're taking the only AM service out of that community) and find enough land that's suitable for building an array large enough and far enough away to keep it from interfering with 1380. And that will be quite a distance. I have known the owner of 1380 for 14 years, and he does NOT, repeat, NOT back down from a legal squabble. He has taken people to court and won many times. He has also told me that if Renda pursues this move, and if it harms his station, he will not hesitate to take action. And I believe Renda knows this. For this reason, I think this project has been shelved for the time being.

 

[cingram]

There's also something else that no one else has figured upon. A channel swap could cause some legal problems, because you would be literally sitting on top of 1380 in Kittanning, two clicks up the dial and a mere 15 miles away from 910's current site in Apollo. The FCC would not allow a swap on the same set of sticks at each station. 1360 would have to change it's city of license (and proof of why they're taking the only AM service out of that community) and find enough land that's suitable for building an array large enough and far enough away to keep it from interfering with 1380. And that will be quite a distance. I have known the owner of 1380 for 14 years, and he does NOT, repeat, NOT back down from a legal squabble. He has taken people to court and won many times. He has also told me that if Renda pursues this move, and if it harms his station, he will not hesitate to take action. And I believe Renda knows this. For this reason, I think this project has been shelved for the time being.

There's also an application for 1350 near Johnstown, which may make the 1360 move to Apollo difficult.

The WPTT move to 910 would also be a very expensive one - land, towers, engineering studies.
And that doesn't even take into account the need for a nighttime array.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with the 1360 daytime signal. 910 will be better, but not a dramatic improvement.

 

[kenhawk1160]

There's also an application for 1350 near Johnstown, which may make the 1360 move to Apollo difficult.

I'm familiar with that one, Clarke. That's the old WBEM frequency, which had been licensed to Windber. It was a 2.5 kilowatt daytimer that has been off the air since 1991. I think the last owner who had it was David Rod Wolf, who just sold his WRTA-AM news/talk station in Altoona to Ed Sherlock's group. I'm not sure what all they did formatically with WBEM when it was on the air, but I don't suspect it was much.

I don't see this move from 1360 to 910 for WPTT as happening. Larry Schrecongost told me that when the article was printed in the paper announcing the change, he had no idea of it. I felt he'd be the first to know since it directly impacted WTYM. Since Renda spent more than a million dollars to buy the FM in Greensburg, with only a stick and license, they still have a studio buildout to do. With the expense of that, they're not going to have the money for this, which would be an easy seven figures.