No Black Talk Radio Station in New York

[JerseyDude]

Right before Jammin 105.1 went off the air, it was "The heart and soul of New York".

 

[salemjedi54]

Seems NYC is bad for black radio. No black talk and only one Urban AC.

How many markets with less than 20% Black population can you name that have two Urban AC stations? New York could not sustain two of them.


Dallas/Fort Worth: KRNB and KSOC

That market is one of the very few exceptions.

Both are signal-challenged rimshots, one getting a 65 dbu part way into Tarrant County and the other getting the same 65 dbu into a piece of Dallas County... neither of them cover but a sliver of the other country. Both look fine in Collin and Denton counties, but they have a major fail where most of the population still is.

That is true, but you did not say anything about signals, you asked how many markets with less than 20% Black population can you name that have two Urban AC stations? I gave you market number 5.

To be fair though wouldn't it be obvious we're talking about full market signals? Rimshots don't count.

No, because you did not discount rimshots. You asked, I provided.

 

[bringbackradio]

Um, Oakland is 28% black, Chicago is 33% black, and St. Louis is 49.2% black. Those are 2010 census numbers. San Francisco is 7% black, but Oakland is far from it.

Isn't Dallas 25% black, as well?

The thing is not too many urban outlets target huge Black populations that live in the suburbs - that comes by default. They mainly focus on the major city which is the heart of the market core. Taking LA as an example, urban radio has declined there due to Hispanics and Latinos composing under half of LA's population. And it is difficult to try having an urban there anymore even if it refocused its target audience on suburbs with a huge Black presence, like Inglewood, Baldwin Hills, Compton, Carson and Long Beach. A different example is Atlanta: V-103 there not only targets Blacks in Atl city proper but it benefits from heritage status and a powerhouse signal that can grab listeners from Clayton County to Marrietta, and College Park to Gwinnett County.

 

[fybush]

Radio signals don't stop at city lines. Unless a broadcaster has urban service as part of its mission (whether that be at a national level like Radio One or at a local level like WDKX here in Rochester or Service in Dallas), the only market that matters is the overall Arbitron metro. If there's enough of a black population in that overall market to sustain an urban-focused station, it will survive. If not, it won't. The demographics of an arbitrary political division within that market (and city lines are pretty arbitrary in most cases) isn't the number that matters here.

 

[Barry]

Given that mainstream talk stations such as WABC and WOR are losing listeners, it seems impractical to expect a station to offer a full time niche talk format that is aimed at a part of the general audience.
The talk programs that are offered by the local urban stations over the weekends plus some others such as the Tavis Smiley show on public radio may be adequate for most listeners interested in discussions of issues affecting the African American community.
Did the Michael Baisden show, carried locally weekday afternoons on the former WRKS (Kiss) FM offer lots of political discussion? I believe it did have good ratings, but evidently WBLS is not interested in running it.

 

[RayDio]

<<Seems strange there is no Black Talk radio station in the NYC area. >>

Why does it seem strange? There's no White Talk radio station either.

 

[davideduardo]

The thing is not too many urban outlets target huge Black populations that live in the suburbs - that comes by default. They mainly focus on the major city which is the heart of the market core. Taking LA as an example, urban radio has declined there due to Hispanics and Latinos composing under half of LA's population. And it is difficult to try having an urban there anymore even if it refocused its target audience on suburbs with a huge Black presence, like Inglewood, Baldwin Hills, Compton, Carson and Long Beach. A different example is Atlanta: V-103 there not only targets Blacks in Atl city proper but it benefits from heritage status and a powerhouse signal that can grab listeners from Clayton County to Marrietta, and College Park to Gwinnett County.

To add to Scott's comment:

Radio ratings are for a metro survey area (MSA) and not individual geopolitical divisions of a market. Generally, markets are groups of entire counties (although a couple of single-county markets, like San Diego County, exist as well as a few fractional county pieces of bigger markets such as Fairfield West in the NYC metro). It does not matter who administers the sewers and trash collection... what matters is the market area or "trading zone".

Because any business that is ratings based is placed based on the listener delivery and station rank of individual facilities, it does not matter whether the listeners of a particular station are concentrated in certain areas. What matters is how the station performs in the MSA.

So, whether one particular municipality or set of ZIP codes has more of any station's listeners or potential ones is immaterial. What matters is if, wherever located, there are enough of them for the station to be attractive to advertisers who buy by the ratings.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

It does not matter who administers the sewers and trash collection... what matters is the market area or "trading zone".

Because any business that is ratings based is placed based on the listener delivery and station rank of individual facilities, it does not matter whether the listeners of a particular station are concentrated in certain areas. What matters is how the station performs in the MSA.

So, whether one particular municipality or set of ZIP codes has more of any station's listeners or potential ones is immaterial. What matters is if, wherever located, there are enough of them for the station to be attractive to advertisers who buy by the ratings.

As a practical lesson on how advertising is bought and sold in metropolitan areas of our country, you once again demonstrate that you have a grasp and knowledge about how life works.

For those of us who spent a number of years pounding the leather off the bottoms of our shoes calling on the retail merchants who bought radio advertising in smaller communities, in rural areas, we know that in that land that is now far, far away and today cannot be measure, cannot be proven to exist for all practical purposes.... we know that who administers the sewers and trash collection is a factor in who listens to what.

That ranks right there with this: If I take off a few days next week and drive down to Savannah and stand on the beach and watch the waves roll in, I could turn to my family and say: "The size of the waves and the chemical make-up of the water is affected to some extent by what has been flowing out of the mouth of the Mississippi River for the last three years."

 

[kevinsealy]

@Kevin, WLIB had low ratings. Is the current black gospel format blowing up the PPM meters?

The topic of this thread is "No Black Radio Talk Station in New York" and I was referring to WLIB's average 1.3 share they've maintained throughout the years they were a talk station.

The highest share WLIB had as a talk station was a 1.9 share, and that was only one book in the fall of 1987.




Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy

 

[Gregg]

--Why does Dallas have two Urban ACs and NYC doesn't?--Let's compare the number of available signals in a given market. Thanks to North Texas being rather flat and that suburban stations around Dallas can blast 100,000 watts, the Dallas market has nearly double the commercial FM stations as NYC. (Most of the suburban stations around NYC are limited to 3000 watts, and do formats specifically for their suburban county.) Also three NYC FM stations in the commercial band are non-commercial (93.9, 99.5, 105.9), which also cuts into the number of available stations for commercial formats. I'm sure if NYC had more full-power FM signals, someone would have replaced Kiss-FM with Urban AC when 98.7 was taken over by ESPN.

--Why no Black Talk in NYC?-- 1190 WLIB and 1600 WWRL are/were black-owned stations and have done a mix of Talk and R&B over the years. When Air America first started, WLIB's management decided to switch to Progressive Talk since several hosts in the Air America line up were African-American (Mark Riley, Chuck D.) and its goals included civil rights. WLIB is now doing a Black Gospel format since nobody in NYC was doing it full time. WWRL has since picked up the Progressive Talk format for much the same reason as WLIB became an Air America affiliate. WWRL's morning host is Mark Riley and Rev. Al Sharpton's syndicated program airs in the evening. Station Manager Rene Bishop, who is black, hosts weekend talk and Carribean music shows.

--How would Black Talk do in NYC?-- Well, Kevin mentions WLIB getting a 1-point-something rating when it was Black Talk. But that was when there was more listening to AM radio. In those days WOR and WABC also did much better than they do today. Maybe the better question is --Why is the Talk format doing so poorly, even if it's on FM?-- WMAL-AM-FM Washington is getting about half the ratings the AM station alone used to achieve a few years ago. Same for WBAP-AM-FM Dallas. But that's for another thread.

So while there's no fulltime Black Talk station in NYC, WWRL sort of serves that function, while it's primarily a Progressive Talk station.

 

[kevinsealy]

--Why does Dallas have two Urban ACs and NYC doesn't?--Let's compare the number of available signals in a given market. Thanks to North Texas being rather flat and that suburban stations around Dallas can blast 100,000 watts, the Dallas market has nearly double the commercial FM stations as NYC. (Most of the suburban stations around NYC are limited to 3000 watts, and do formats specifically for their suburban county.) Also three NYC FM stations in the commercial band are non-commercial (93.9, 99.5, 105.9), which also cuts into the number of available stations for commercial formats. I'm sure if NYC had more full-power FM signals, someone would have replaced Kiss-FM with Urban AC when 98.7 was taken over by ESPN.

--Why no Black Talk in NYC?-- 1190 WLIB and 1600 WWRL are/were black-owned stations and have done a mix of Talk and R&B over the years. When Air America first started, WLIB's management decided to switch to Progressive Talk since several hosts in the Air America line up were African-American (Mark Riley, Chuck D.) and its goals included civil rights. WLIB is now doing a Black Gospel format since nobody in NYC was doing it full time. WWRL has since picked up the Progressive Talk format for much the same reason as WLIB became an Air America affiliate. WWRL's morning host is Mark Riley and Rev. Al Sharpton's syndicated program airs in the evening. Station Manager Rene Bishop, who is black, hosts weekend talk and Carribean music shows.

--How would Black Talk do in NYC?-- Well, Kevin mentions WLIB getting a 1-point-something rating when it was Black Talk. But that was when there was more listening to AM radio. In those days WOR and WABC also did much better than they do today. Maybe the better question is --Why is the Talk format doing so poorly, even if it's on FM?-- WMAL-AM-FM Washington is getting about half the ratings the AM station alone used to achieve a few years ago. Same for WBAP-AM-FM Dallas. But that's for another thread.

So while there's no fulltime Black Talk station in NYC, WWRL sort of serves that function, while it's primarily a Progressive Talk station.

Gregg to add to my post, the Black population in the New York metro area is evaporating. And this could be the reason why that's being reflected in Black stations losing their numbers.

Also, Black talk radio is very liberal and liberal talk stations have been doing very poorly compared to conservative talk radio.

Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy

 

[Jeffrey]

<<Seems strange there is no Black Talk radio station in the NYC area. >>

Why does it seem strange? There's no White Talk radio station either.

but there is. It's called WABC, lol.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Gregg to add to my post, the Black population in the New York metro area is evaporating. And this could be the reason why that's being reflected in Black stations losing their numbers.

Also, Black talk radio is very liberal and liberal talk stations have been doing very poorly compared to conservative talk radio.

I found this info on the NYC.GOV site in a page of census statistics:

•The Black nonhispanic population of New York City numbered 1.88 million in 2011, more than double the count in any other U.S. city. Were this group a city in its own right it would rank 5th nationally.

On various sites I found conflicting percentage numbers, but BLACK NON-HISPANIC population of NYC is about 25%.

There are references that a number of Northern Communities are finding their Black population shrinking a bit as they become "suburbanites" (still in the market?) and as mobile/affluent Blacks do what a lot of other people do: they look for the warmer weather of the South, and they find life in the South not as hostile as it was two or three generations ago.

With approximately 2,000,000 Blacks living in NYC... I'm not sure that a claim that they are "vanishing" is all that accurate.

 

[davideduardo]

With approximately 2,000,000 Blacks living in NYC... I'm not sure that a claim that they are "vanishing" is all that accurate.

And the Arbitron MSA has 17.2% Black, meaning 3,060,000 persons.

 

[wadio]

If I were black I think I'd be insulted by the idea of a "black talk station." It implies that black listeners are monolithic and not interested in news, politics, business, consumer affairs and all the other things that can make for interesting conversation on the radio. We could probably use some black hosts like Herman Cain, Larry Elder, even Al Sharpton for a broader perspective, but 24/7 "black talk?" Come on! That would be just as ridiculous as talking about ... um ... politics 24/7.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

If I were black I think I'd be insulted by the idea of a "black talk station." It implies that black listeners are monolithic and not interested in news, politics, business, consumer affairs and all the other things that can make for interesting conversation on the radio. We could probably use some black hosts like Herman Cain, Larry Elder, even Al Sharpton for a broader perspective, but 24/7 "black talk?" Come on! That would be just as ridiculous as talking about ... um ... politics 24/7.

I am having trouble sorting out which part of your post is serious, and which part is tongue-in-cheek! ;D

If I were White I think I'd be insulted by the idea of a talk station that caters only to angry OLD white guys. It implies the White listeners are monolithic and not interested in ALL the news, the FULL SPECTRUM of politics. You would think that White people once in awhile might want to hear about the ecology and global warming and what today's business climate is doing to consumer affairs. But.... you know how those angry old White people are.

 

[kevinsealy]

If I were black I think I'd be insulted by the idea of a "black talk station." It implies that black listeners are monolithic and not interested in news, politics, business, consumer affairs and all the other things that can make for interesting conversation on the radio. We could probably use some black hosts like Herman Cain, Larry Elder, even Al Sharpton for a broader perspective, but 24/7 "black talk?" Come on! That would be just as ridiculous as talking about ... um ... politics 24/7.

I am having trouble sorting out which part of your post is serious, and which part is tongue-in-cheek! ;D

If I were White I think I'd be insulted by the idea of a talk station that caters only to angry OLD white guys. It implies the White listeners are monolithic and not interested in ALL the news, the FULL SPECTRUM of politics. You would think that White people once in awhile might want to hear about the ecology and global warming and what today's business climate is doing to consumer affairs. But.... you know how those angry old White people are.

Black talk radio like the Gary Byrd Show and Open Line both on WBLS only cater to issues that affect the Black community like the shooting of Treyvon Martin.

If Treyvon Martin was a White youth, the talk shows on WBLS would go nowhere near this topic.




Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy

 

[wadio]

If I were black I think I'd be insulted by the idea of a "black talk station." It implies that black listeners are monolithic and not interested in news, politics, business, consumer affairs and all the other things that can make for interesting conversation on the radio. We could probably use some black hosts like Herman Cain, Larry Elder, even Al Sharpton for a broader perspective, but 24/7 "black talk?" Come on! That would be just as ridiculous as talking about ... um ... politics 24/7.

I am having trouble sorting out which part of your post is serious, and which part is tongue-in-cheek! ;D

If I were White I think I'd be insulted by the idea of a talk station that caters only to angry OLD white guys. It implies the White listeners are monolithic and not interested in ALL the news, the FULL SPECTRUM of politics. You would think that White people once in awhile might want to hear about the ecology and global warming and what today's business climate is doing to consumer affairs. But.... you know how those angry old White people are.

I think you got my drift.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Black talk radio like the Gary Byrd Show and Open Line both on WBLS only cater to issues that affect the Black community like the shooting of Treyvon Martin.

If Treyvon Martin was a White youth, the talk shows on WBLS would go nowhere near this topic.

Even if Treyvon Martin and George Zimmerman had never come within 100 miles of each other, Black radio would likely still find the blizzard of "Stand your ground laws" as grist that needed "grinding in the mill" of their talk shows.

 

[Barry]

AllAccess reports that local clearance of Rev. Al Sharpton's show has moved from WWRL to WLIB AM, which has a better signal. It will air live on weekdays from 1-3 PM.
Perhaps WLIB AM may add additional talk shows, in addition to their gospel programming.