FreestylePete said:
Why are you so negative?
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No Real Dance Stations Left In USA With the selling of Energy in Arizona
Why are you so negative?
J
JohnParker
Guest
Pete,
That's an easy one to solve. They had/have coverage over the Tri-State area. That's a whole lot bigger than the WKRB signal. Therefore, a lot more people would know, remember and then talk about them. There is no doubt that Hot had a major influence but please re-read what I said. In the WKRB coverage area, a very limited signal, there was no comparison. The fact that anyone talks about the station 20 years later should be proof enough of that. But if you don't believe me, then ask anyone that lived there or maybe you can visit Washington DC and look at the Arbitron diaries from back then.
Also, small non-com stations in major metros don't automatically get big numbers. There are thousands of instances to prove that. Providing programming that the public wants gives you ratings not the size of your metro or stick.
jp
That's an easy one to solve. They had/have coverage over the Tri-State area. That's a whole lot bigger than the WKRB signal. Therefore, a lot more people would know, remember and then talk about them. There is no doubt that Hot had a major influence but please re-read what I said. In the WKRB coverage area, a very limited signal, there was no comparison. The fact that anyone talks about the station 20 years later should be proof enough of that. But if you don't believe me, then ask anyone that lived there or maybe you can visit Washington DC and look at the Arbitron diaries from back then.
Also, small non-com stations in major metros don't automatically get big numbers. There are thousands of instances to prove that. Providing programming that the public wants gives you ratings not the size of your metro or stick.
jp
Re: ??
No its still negative. This format doesnt need anymore negative comments what it needs is to embrace the good things that are going on. What a little station can do we should applaud, not say no one listened. WHy is it that I heard about before I even knew who John was and Im in Philly? That should say a lot. The guy that started this board knew about my old station and had air checks from it. And he lived in California. Thats amazing. We tear apart our own format because we dont agree with someone but by doing so dont understand the long term effects it will cause.
pbf1 said:
No its still negative. This format doesnt need anymore negative comments what it needs is to embrace the good things that are going on. What a little station can do we should applaud, not say no one listened. WHy is it that I heard about before I even knew who John was and Im in Philly? That should say a lot. The guy that started this board knew about my old station and had air checks from it. And he lived in California. Thats amazing. We tear apart our own format because we dont agree with someone but by doing so dont understand the long term effects it will cause.
Re: ??
Having said that, counting the hd2 channels, AND BPM and The Beat there are more dance stations on the airwaves than there have been in many years. Hell, even at the height of the modern dance boom (mid to late nineties) there weren't as many stations one was capable of receiving. Plus, now thanks to satellite radio, one can listen to dance music ANYWHERE in the country, as opposed to the largest metropolitan regions. This is a huge improvement.
For me, living in a small market in Florida, I can listen to dance music now but if I lived here 10-15 years ago that would NOT be an option. Don't suggest to me the dance format is losing steam because we lost a few terrestrial signals. The future is satellite and/or hd radio, which still support the format.
I'd really like to see this thread closed so we can go on to discuss matters that deserve our time.
Exactly. Guys, how does posting a thread saying "there are no dance formats left in America" going to help the viability of this format? What are influential programmers going to think when they see a thread by this title? I strongly suggest the original author change the name of this thread.Dancerev889 said:
Having said that, counting the hd2 channels, AND BPM and The Beat there are more dance stations on the airwaves than there have been in many years. Hell, even at the height of the modern dance boom (mid to late nineties) there weren't as many stations one was capable of receiving. Plus, now thanks to satellite radio, one can listen to dance music ANYWHERE in the country, as opposed to the largest metropolitan regions. This is a huge improvement.
For me, living in a small market in Florida, I can listen to dance music now but if I lived here 10-15 years ago that would NOT be an option. Don't suggest to me the dance format is losing steam because we lost a few terrestrial signals. The future is satellite and/or hd radio, which still support the format.
I'd really like to see this thread closed so we can go on to discuss matters that deserve our time.
F
FreestylePete
Guest
I am not being negative but stated real facts. The music on satellite radio on the dance chanels is horrondous for the most part which is why I dropped Sirious after having them for 3 years. You dont put on a paid radio service pop songs with no direct bearing to dance music like the Beat did. As for B91 and living in Long Island my whole life and having family and friends in Brooklyn no body ever mentioned B91 to me back in the days. New York didnt have a true dance station since Hot 97 days but again there where specks of good dance music radio through out the years. Alan Freed's The Beat was a great station the short time it was on the air on AM. Party 105.3 was great the first few years it was on the air. Last but not least WLIR 92.7 FM LIR Afterdark which was all dance music was awesome every night after ten i Believe. I am just sick of people not knowing dance music force feeding me crap they call dance music which is just basically club versions of pop hits. We the dance music community deserve a real dance/chr radio station that is more then a few watts. I would love for it to be on FM but AM would be just as good.
FreestylePete said:
You make valid points Pete, however, I (and many others) wasn't as fortunate as you to grow up in Long Island, a market where there has been dance music on the radio. I lived near Philadelphia where I was able to pull Q102 in during the few years it played dance music. Shortly after I moved to Florida and had nothing. This changed once I got satellite radio. Yes, I have LOTS of problems with "The Beat"- mainly in the department of playing new music, but is it possible for me to listen to dance music in my car now? Yes.
F
FreestylePete
Guest
That is true I was lucky to be able to hear dance music on different stations through out my life on my walkman, boomboxes, and car stereos. But paying money to hear "club" remixes of pop songs I just wont do any more. Sirius when they had the remix station and the original beat was much better and I enjoyed being a subscriber. For classics and freestyle the classic station was good. Xm radio except for a few minutes i never heard the programing so them i cant talk about.
The best commercial FM dance station left is KNGY "Energy 92.7" San Francisco. It's been my personal favorite for a while now, so I'm hoping that Flying Bear sticks with the format and doesn't end up dumping it there as well. I know the ratings aren't spectacular, but it is on a rimshot signal that probably isn't going to do any better with another format anyway. So hopefully they will keep the dance format in San Francisco for awhile. Does anyone know if it looks like this company is committed to dance and keeping the station? I always liked KNGY "Energy 92.7" much better than I did "Energy Arizona". Partly because, the presentation of a radio station is as much of a draw to me as the music, and "Energy 92.7" San Francisco sounds really good, with great sweepers and cool jocks. I really think they are the perfect model for how a current intensive dance format should sound. If someone put a clone of Energy 92.7 on a good signal in a market like NYC, I think it would be successful.
Anyway, any other fans of San Francisco's "Energy 92.7" out there? I have satellite radio (both XM and Sirius), but I think Energy sounds much better than XM's "BPM" or Sirius's "the Beat", so I listen online to Energy most of the time.
Anyway, any other fans of San Francisco's "Energy 92.7" out there? I have satellite radio (both XM and Sirius), but I think Energy sounds much better than XM's "BPM" or Sirius's "the Beat", so I listen online to Energy most of the time.
I whole heartedy agree - I have been listening to KNGY about 6 months after they signed on and Energy 92.7 KNGY in my mind is exactly *how* a successful dance station should sound. It's high energy, excellent production, hot jocks that seem comitted to the music. Sure their music isn't that deep, but it is a lot of fun to listen to and doesn't rely on all the old hits to keep it going. Some great mix shows as well! Their ratings have steadily been climing and are around 0.8 - but considering the competition and the fact it is a rimshot, it does tremendously well.. I listened to Energy Arizona for awhile but it was tiring and sounded the same all the time--- very poor production and just a mish-mash. About 2 years ago it seemed in its prime - but downhill slide ever since.
My old gripe with KNGY is they are bit over the top with the "gay" factor. That being said Fernando and Greg in the morning are a great team and extremely entertaining. They kind of over-do the gay factor though.
Anyhow, if anyone from KNGY is reading this, please keep up the great work!
PS: i too have XM and Sirius and rate the three stations the following:
1) ENERGY 92.7 KNGY
2) BPM on XM (if they could program like Energy SF they would have a perfect station)
3) The Beat ( this channel needs a complete overhaul - it's awful)
For those of you that have not listend to Energy SF recently, here's the link to the MP3 Stream: http://lc2.sc.liquidcompass.cc:9020/
Give it a listen to one of the last commercial big stick dance stations in the US
My old gripe with KNGY is they are bit over the top with the "gay" factor. That being said Fernando and Greg in the morning are a great team and extremely entertaining. They kind of over-do the gay factor though.
Anyhow, if anyone from KNGY is reading this, please keep up the great work!
PS: i too have XM and Sirius and rate the three stations the following:
1) ENERGY 92.7 KNGY
2) BPM on XM (if they could program like Energy SF they would have a perfect station)
3) The Beat ( this channel needs a complete overhaul - it's awful)
For those of you that have not listend to Energy SF recently, here's the link to the MP3 Stream: http://lc2.sc.liquidcompass.cc:9020/
Give it a listen to one of the last commercial big stick dance stations in the US
I said this 5 years ago, and I'll say it again;
it's hard for a commercial dance station to exist when there are no legit dance hits and no real dance stars with which to populate the station;
the snooty attitude towards commercial/pop dance hits,and the refusal to play them in the big 'hipper than thou' rooms was the beginning of the end for this abandoned genre, and presenting the dj as the star in place of entertainers/vocalists was the end of the end...and now it's done, get over it, and Happy Xmas!
it's hard for a commercial dance station to exist when there are no legit dance hits and no real dance stars with which to populate the station;
the snooty attitude towards commercial/pop dance hits,and the refusal to play them in the big 'hipper than thou' rooms was the beginning of the end for this abandoned genre, and presenting the dj as the star in place of entertainers/vocalists was the end of the end...and now it's done, get over it, and Happy Xmas!
H
Hot96portland
Guest
First time post, so pardon my ignorance!
A little about me: I run Hot96.net out of my basement, but my day job is a Chief Engineer and Air personality for the CBS radio cluster in Portland..
OK, now the reason for my responding to this thread: I have been a dance music fan for YEARS, as well been in radio on and off for nearly 20. What I see is the problem with a dance format, is how it is presented here in the states. For instance, while Energy in SF is well produced and packaged well, it is not what I call a mass appeal presentation. One of my alltime favorite online stations to listen to is Slamfm in the Netherlands. The presentation is very much like a rhythmic CHR with a very strong dance lean to it. For instance, grab their Slam 40 countdown, you will see many club-only tracks mixed with Top 40/Pop mainstays. This is a formula that could be more successful in the states. For instance, when programing my online station, I see problems/pitfalls that many Commercial and non-com stations fall into. Take a song like "Say It Right" by Nelly Furtado, HUGE hit. But why was it a huge hit? Because of the album version, so which version should a dance station program? The regular album version or the 12" club mix? On a track like that, where the strength of the track is in it's original version, use the original. But when it comes to something say "Lovestoned" by JT, the Oakenfold mix can be aired/used and not take away form the appeal of the track (it still has the same mood/feel of the original.) Too many of these station try to make themselves stand-out as a "Dance" station. The average listener will actually be turned off by the "techno" version of their favorite songs, that's why the music/programing choices need to be on a case by case bases. Too often, I see a MD add a certain version of a song, just because it's a dance/club remix of a track. While this is great in the clubs were you are trying to easily transistion between records (ohh yeah, I did spend 10 years as a club/touring/rave DJ..) on the radio, listeners want it broken up. They want different tempos and not so much sameness between tracks. If nothing else, the Jack/Charlie/iPod format experiments should have taught us something that old school Top-40 learned in the 80's: Variety is good. You could go from T'pau's "Heart and soul" to "Lola's Theme" to "Back that Azz Up" and the listener will stick with you... While I am not saying a dance format should just throw a bunch of Hip hop in to succeed, a few old school Hip-hop or R&B tracks aren't going to hurt. That was what I thought was cool about the MOViN format, is it started to show that yes, the average listener didn't hate dance music, it just needed to be sprinkled lightly with a mix of familiar sounds.
OK, I am so far on my soap box, that I need to come down for a while.. I will end rant for a awhile so I can take a breather, but I know I am right, and that the Dance format can be successful om a mass basis.
A little about me: I run Hot96.net out of my basement, but my day job is a Chief Engineer and Air personality for the CBS radio cluster in Portland..
OK, now the reason for my responding to this thread: I have been a dance music fan for YEARS, as well been in radio on and off for nearly 20. What I see is the problem with a dance format, is how it is presented here in the states. For instance, while Energy in SF is well produced and packaged well, it is not what I call a mass appeal presentation. One of my alltime favorite online stations to listen to is Slamfm in the Netherlands. The presentation is very much like a rhythmic CHR with a very strong dance lean to it. For instance, grab their Slam 40 countdown, you will see many club-only tracks mixed with Top 40/Pop mainstays. This is a formula that could be more successful in the states. For instance, when programing my online station, I see problems/pitfalls that many Commercial and non-com stations fall into. Take a song like "Say It Right" by Nelly Furtado, HUGE hit. But why was it a huge hit? Because of the album version, so which version should a dance station program? The regular album version or the 12" club mix? On a track like that, where the strength of the track is in it's original version, use the original. But when it comes to something say "Lovestoned" by JT, the Oakenfold mix can be aired/used and not take away form the appeal of the track (it still has the same mood/feel of the original.) Too many of these station try to make themselves stand-out as a "Dance" station. The average listener will actually be turned off by the "techno" version of their favorite songs, that's why the music/programing choices need to be on a case by case bases. Too often, I see a MD add a certain version of a song, just because it's a dance/club remix of a track. While this is great in the clubs were you are trying to easily transistion between records (ohh yeah, I did spend 10 years as a club/touring/rave DJ..) on the radio, listeners want it broken up. They want different tempos and not so much sameness between tracks. If nothing else, the Jack/Charlie/iPod format experiments should have taught us something that old school Top-40 learned in the 80's: Variety is good. You could go from T'pau's "Heart and soul" to "Lola's Theme" to "Back that Azz Up" and the listener will stick with you... While I am not saying a dance format should just throw a bunch of Hip hop in to succeed, a few old school Hip-hop or R&B tracks aren't going to hurt. That was what I thought was cool about the MOViN format, is it started to show that yes, the average listener didn't hate dance music, it just needed to be sprinkled lightly with a mix of familiar sounds.
OK, I am so far on my soap box, that I need to come down for a while.. I will end rant for a awhile so I can take a breather, but I know I am right, and that the Dance format can be successful om a mass basis.
I completely agree with Hot96Portland.
As for Slam FM out of Holland, you should know that it's not an internet-only station, but rather a terrestrial one. In fact, it broadcasts on a number of good FM signals that blanket all of Holland. The station used to ne known as ID&T. In Amsterdam one can also pick up Fresh FM (which is more pure Dance), and Radio Decibel 94.9 (Adult Dance). In other parts of Holland you can pick up X-FM, or Hot 93 FM.
As for the best Dance station in America, imo it would have to go to XM's BPM followed by C-89.5, and then maybe Area 33.
As for Slam FM out of Holland, you should know that it's not an internet-only station, but rather a terrestrial one. In fact, it broadcasts on a number of good FM signals that blanket all of Holland. The station used to ne known as ID&T. In Amsterdam one can also pick up Fresh FM (which is more pure Dance), and Radio Decibel 94.9 (Adult Dance). In other parts of Holland you can pick up X-FM, or Hot 93 FM.
As for the best Dance station in America, imo it would have to go to XM's BPM followed by C-89.5, and then maybe Area 33.
Hot96portland said:
Um thats what we do at WBZC. We dont play remixes just because we are very dance leaning. I want a remix thats true to the original version. There has been a ton of times we just play the original. Timbalands Apologize we looked for a remix that was true to the song and the only one we found was the Ultimix version. Still true to the original it was more up beat. The response was off the charts.
The biggest issue is knowing who your audience is. I listen to them all the time. Its one of the reasons we play a lot of freestyle and not just the major hits but the songs that were big in the south jersey area. I had some people from out of the area say we play too many but these songs in this market are bigger than a lot of the classic dance tracks.
The funny thing is that Diva was the only one that got flipped because any of the stations were failing. KTU is still playing dance, they just replaced currents. In my opinion they were a HOT AC station anyway. Energy Chicago got sold and Party in Miami, saw an opportunity to go Rock. The format was working, they saw they could corner the market.
I will go by the biggest reason why dance is not as big as it should be......Marketing. Plus listeners today are spoon fed music they are supposed to like. When I first flipped the format I had students telling me we were playing too much techno. I laughed and said that isnt techno, its pop dance records. I also said try something new you might like it. So I tweaked the format a bit to add some other elements such as reggae and hip-hop and now they love it. Plus for my older part of my demos I have classic hip-hop such as Rob Base.
Dance can work but you cant expect a pure dance station to come on the scene and win the war.
H
Hot96portland
Guest
Yes Edger, we have talked before, we both know some of the same people... I was doing the thing on 95.9 a few years ago (hence Hot 96..get it?) Ask Cupples.
I am glad to see you have a similar philosophy, in the end it will lead to more success.
I completely understand where you are coming from! For years, I fought that "It's not Techno" war, both in radio and in the clubs before I finally just gave up and figured out a way to get over it. Funny store infact, I was spinning at an all ages club in Portland, and I was playing a couple house versions of some R&B cuts, and several people came up and asked me to stop playing "Techno" version of the songs. I got so pissed, I ripped the needle off the track that was playing and threw on Turntable Terror's "Break", followed by a T99 track, and finished with the extended version of "James Brown is dead!" Needless to say the dancefloor emptied... That is one thing I have never understood is why some station refuse to use remix service versions. Some of the services (like Promix) create version true to the original, and most people can't quite place the difference. Of course now we are splitting hairs..
Anyway, you seem to share the same view that I do. A dance station can do better programed as an AC than trying to mimick a Top 40! I mean, let's be honest, alot of the pure dance tracks have a low burn and trying to push them to 50-60 spins a week is going to lose cume.
Do you guys use auditorium tests or mailers?
I am glad to see you have a similar philosophy, in the end it will lead to more success.
I completely understand where you are coming from! For years, I fought that "It's not Techno" war, both in radio and in the clubs before I finally just gave up and figured out a way to get over it. Funny store infact, I was spinning at an all ages club in Portland, and I was playing a couple house versions of some R&B cuts, and several people came up and asked me to stop playing "Techno" version of the songs. I got so pissed, I ripped the needle off the track that was playing and threw on Turntable Terror's "Break", followed by a T99 track, and finished with the extended version of "James Brown is dead!" Needless to say the dancefloor emptied... That is one thing I have never understood is why some station refuse to use remix service versions. Some of the services (like Promix) create version true to the original, and most people can't quite place the difference. Of course now we are splitting hairs..
Anyway, you seem to share the same view that I do. A dance station can do better programed as an AC than trying to mimick a Top 40! I mean, let's be honest, alot of the pure dance tracks have a low burn and trying to push them to 50-60 spins a week is going to lose cume.
Do you guys use auditorium tests or mailers?
B
Brian_1055
Guest
Some of the most accurate posts in some time...
While I might not agree with everything everyone has said, there are a few excellent points I wanted to comment on...
Agree with all that was said above, very few dance hits and stars. I think that DJ's/producers don't get enough credit (not only in the dance world but in general), but I fully agree that the entertainers/vocalists need to be the focus in today's world. I would find it hard for anyone to program a decent dance station today with the music that is out there currently.
Totally agree, they've got some good things going, but the presentation and the music is a whole different story. The music is not even suited for San Francisco. Living in Sacramento, I have a lot of friends from Sac (home of the ex dance station Power 105.5) that I go with between the two cities, and being a radio/dance fan, I just HAVE to listen to 92.7 when I'm there. But it's amazing how many times I've been in the car and had people tell me to change the station, because the music "sucked." And these were people who listened to dance music in on Power 105.5 when it was around. While it is dance music (on 92.7) it's not mainstream enough to ever make any noise. When are some people going to realize we need some good mainstream well-put-together hit dance songs, with good catchy melodies... and not just poor beats with some vocals? While the singers may have good voices, the hit quality songs are just not there. Just because the dance songs have vocals, do not make them suitable for radio. Dance radio cannot be "the club in your car." Club hits need to stay in the club (with obviously a few exceptions that will do well in both places). We need a whole new set of dance music to come out. Hits for radio. Sometimes I think we would do better having a non-dance (i.e. CHR/Rhythmic) program/music director program a dance station. Not the club/former club DJ's programming the station (obviously with some exceptions, some may get it). We need people who will look for the hits, not just what is hot in the clubs or in Europe, or what is cool with their DJ friends. There is a level of, as Lalumia put it - "hipper than thou" attitude out there among DJ's. Dance music has gotten to deep for radio.
I've always had a problem with dance stations putting way too many (pop/r&b/rock & hip hop) remixes on the air. Not only do I find a lot of these songs unnecessary on dance radio, but I totally agree that some of the remixes have no business being on the radio. Some are just terrible, and if any are to get airplay, I agree they should very closely resemble the original.
Yes! I'm blown away how far away from this that most US dance stations go. Energy SF is an example of a big time blown opportunity. Wild 94.9's mix of freestyle/house/latin house/trance/etc was much more San Francisco than Energy SF has ever been. I'm a big fan of knowing who you're programming to and not just putting on the air songs that are big in the club, among your DJ friends, in Europe, on some other dance station, or the Billboard Charts.
While I might not agree with everything everyone has said, there are a few excellent points I wanted to comment on...
lalumia said:
Agree with all that was said above, very few dance hits and stars. I think that DJ's/producers don't get enough credit (not only in the dance world but in general), but I fully agree that the entertainers/vocalists need to be the focus in today's world. I would find it hard for anyone to program a decent dance station today with the music that is out there currently.
Hot96portland said:
Totally agree, they've got some good things going, but the presentation and the music is a whole different story. The music is not even suited for San Francisco. Living in Sacramento, I have a lot of friends from Sac (home of the ex dance station Power 105.5) that I go with between the two cities, and being a radio/dance fan, I just HAVE to listen to 92.7 when I'm there. But it's amazing how many times I've been in the car and had people tell me to change the station, because the music "sucked." And these were people who listened to dance music in on Power 105.5 when it was around. While it is dance music (on 92.7) it's not mainstream enough to ever make any noise. When are some people going to realize we need some good mainstream well-put-together hit dance songs, with good catchy melodies... and not just poor beats with some vocals? While the singers may have good voices, the hit quality songs are just not there. Just because the dance songs have vocals, do not make them suitable for radio. Dance radio cannot be "the club in your car." Club hits need to stay in the club (with obviously a few exceptions that will do well in both places). We need a whole new set of dance music to come out. Hits for radio. Sometimes I think we would do better having a non-dance (i.e. CHR/Rhythmic) program/music director program a dance station. Not the club/former club DJ's programming the station (obviously with some exceptions, some may get it). We need people who will look for the hits, not just what is hot in the clubs or in Europe, or what is cool with their DJ friends. There is a level of, as Lalumia put it - "hipper than thou" attitude out there among DJ's. Dance music has gotten to deep for radio.
Hot96portland said:
I've always had a problem with dance stations putting way too many (pop/r&b/rock & hip hop) remixes on the air. Not only do I find a lot of these songs unnecessary on dance radio, but I totally agree that some of the remixes have no business being on the radio. Some are just terrible, and if any are to get airplay, I agree they should very closely resemble the original.
Great choice (on the Ultimix version)! That is one of the few good remixes out there. Also might appeal a bit to your audience, when taking into account the type of dance music that has been big there. Another thing I find troubling is some of the terrible choices some PDs/MDs have made in picking a mix of songs (that were dance songs originally!). Sometimes I think it would be obvious as to what versions would make the most noise, but I'm blown away by some of the decisions (i.e. Gigi D'Agostino's - I'll Fly With You, should have had only one version really ever played).Dancerev889 said:
Dancerev889 said:
Yes! I'm blown away how far away from this that most US dance stations go. Energy SF is an example of a big time blown opportunity. Wild 94.9's mix of freestyle/house/latin house/trance/etc was much more San Francisco than Energy SF has ever been. I'm a big fan of knowing who you're programming to and not just putting on the air songs that are big in the club, among your DJ friends, in Europe, on some other dance station, or the Billboard Charts.
Brian, you're frightening me, you're making beautiful sense and agreeing with me..how'd you make it past the gates?
remember,"Dancefloor" can STILL save the day and turn things around(even if it IS my record)
http://www.myspace.com/thejimilalumia
remember,"Dancefloor" can STILL save the day and turn things around(even if it IS my record)
http://www.myspace.com/thejimilalumia
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