One of the biggest flops of all time

[TheBigA]

I totally agree - we needed a new band for HD. That didn't happen because the FCC holds onto spectrum allocated for antiquated services like they are sacrosanct. If you have to buy a new radio anyways for HD - what difference would it make if there was a new band?

Good points, but if you have a new band, why do you need IBOC? The purpose of IBOC is to modulate additional carriers on an existing one. Get a new digital radio band, and it's more like the (failed) European model.

 

[Barry]

A few more reasons why I am not so quick to declare that HD Radio is a flop:
Clear Channel remains committed to it. Though CC gets its share of knocks on these boards, they do run many successful radio stations. They must see potential in it.

There has been an increase in translators that are marketed as regular FM stations, but actually use a feed from an HD2/3 signal. Some of them are in major markets, such as Chicago.

Technology is offering several additional uses for it. These include providing traffic data to car GPS systems, and the ability to direct data and/or advertising to electronic screens (such as the ones being built into new cars).

Sports teams are setting up stations devoted to 24/7 coverage on HD sidechannels in a number of markets. Given the enormous interest in many home teams, this seems like something that could eventually become profitable.

Ethnic or community groups could become increasingly interested in leasing HD channels. They certainly sound better than the tinny SCA FM sidechannels that have been in use for a long time. In New York for example, there is a Caribbean broadcaster that has been leasing an HD2 for about a year. Broadcasts of this type could add to the diversity of HD sidechannel programming, enhancing its appeal.

 

[Savage]

Point taken about HD subs being used as a pretense to launch FM analog translators (thus avoiding ownership caps in many markets.) SO clever. :

But I'm going to dissent on your point about Clear Channel Media and Entertainment (no longer CC Radio) seeing "merit" in HD per se. That stance is a little hard to reconcile with corporate directives retracting the HD companywide mandate, allowing local management to turn it off at will. I think it's more a case of the company wanting to look like they're not dumping HD, while at the same time quietly edging toward the exits (after all, the new corporate name indicates CC sees its future as a "content provider" as opposed to a custodian of terrestrial transmitting plants. That plunks HD Radio in the long-term irrelevance column, since there are existing, more cost-effective digital platforms without HD's vexing problems.)

There are still no radios. And reception issues. And no sales strategy. Absent dramatic solutions in ALL THREE categories, its long-term prospects are not good.

 

[Barry]

Point taken about HD subs being used as a pretense to launch FM analog translators (thus avoiding ownership caps in many markets.) SO clever. :

But I'm going to dissent on your point about Clear Channel Media and Entertainment (no longer CC Radio) seeing "merit" in HD per se. That stance is a little hard to reconcile with corporate directives retracting the HD companywide mandate, allowing local management to turn it off at will. I think it's more a case of the company wanting to look like they're not dumping HD, while at the same time quietly edging toward the exits (after all, the new corporate name indicates CC sees its future as a "content provider" as opposed to a custodian of terrestrial transmitting plants. That plunks HD Radio in the long-term irrelevance column, since there are existing, more cost-effective digital platforms without HD's vexing problems.)

There are still no radios. And reception issues. And no sales strategy. Absent dramatic solutions in ALL THREE categories, its long-term prospects are not good.

Referencing the New York market, which I am most familiar with, Clear Channel appears to have recently raised the power of at least two of their HD signals. That must have been expensive, as new trsansmitters were probably employed. The HD signals on the two stations were down for quite a while last year. When they came back, they were much easier to receive over a longer distance. CC is also trying hard to get one of its HD subchannels rebroadcast on a translator in NYC, which is tough in a market with such a crowded FM dial.
Has CC actually shut down any HD signals in a major market?

Yes, there is a lack of radios. But they are now being offered by a number of car manufacturers. This seems to be similar to the situation with satellite radio. For several years, they were rare in cars. Then a few luxury auto makers offered them. Now a large percentage of new and recent cars have them. It took Sirius XM about ten years to get to the point where their equipment is common in vehicles. Even standard FM took a long time to become common in car radios, and had serious reception issues that were effectively addressed.

No argument that marketing has been poor. That could change.

As for signals, I have noticed dramatic improvement among certain stations. They must have upgraded their power levels and/or antenna systems. And of course technology is not static. Other improvements to the technology may be imminent.

 

[Savage]

HD is more available in cars, but that's illusory. For the most part HD is only available as part of multithousand dollar NAV/COM packages. Maybe CC has improved Tx power in New York, but that's only one (#1) market and there can be a hundred reasons why you're perceiving that. Consumer awareness of HD Radio remains lower than the curb, and there is a lot of anecdotal evidence strongly suggesting that even though they some have IBOC-capable cars that owners are driving around with the HD defeated to improve reception and reduce hunting/flipping.

Outside of major markets, the system remains invisible with a few exceptions. Rival innovations which offer more choice and better performance have galloped way ahead of HD Radio in consumer acceptance. Degrees of improvement are not the point. Maybe select radio people remain stubbornly optimistic about IBOC, but the rest of the world remains clueless and ambivalent.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

HD does not work now on either AM or FM, has never worked, and despite all the jumping through "higher power level" hoops and hope from the few believers, it just doesn't f'ing work! It never had the ability to work, it will never have the ability to work, and it solves a nonexistent problem very poorly. So CC supports it? So what? The people driving in their cars couldn't care less. All they hear is the switching of the HD-1's and the total drop out of the 2's and 3's. They think they have a bad radio, which in fact they do, and complain to the car dealers who really don't have a solution or need the problem. HD is the dumbest, most kluged system ever foisted on broadcasting, and that's saying something for the price it costs to play the game.

It was DOA and it will remain the biggest piece of electronic crap ever to float the bowl. Thank the stars I never had to install one and be dealt the sentence of having to maintain it. Retirement is good.

 

[nd2023]

In class C flat land territory in Minnesota I get reliable reception of the Minneapolis HD stations 25 miles away and I'm sure it'll last even further than 40 miles. In fact one HD2 signal can be heard further than its analog translator. Compare that with the New York City HDs dropping out after 15 miles and completely gone by 35 miles.

I get consistent analog reception with little static from a 100000 watt flamethrower 85 miles away!

 

[Barry]

I was trying to make the point that a few HD stations in the market where I listen most often (NYC) have evidently boosted their power recently, as they definitely come in much better than they used to. Their HD signals are also now much easier to receive than those from other stations that are broadcast from the same location. If anyone is in the NYC area and wants to check this out, compare the HD signals from WLTW, WWPR and WBLS with those of other stations, say about 35 miles from midtown. With the exception of a few places that have hills near the roads, the signals from these 3 stations remain stable at that distance, and often beyond. The others become unlistenable at closer distances.
I believe that many people criticizing HD radio reception have not experienced the difference that occurs when HD stations increase the power from their previous extremely low levels (often well under 100 watts ERP).

 

[rbrucecarter5]

In class C flat land territory in Minnesota I get reliable reception of the Minneapolis HD stations 25 miles away and I'm sure it'll last even further than 40 miles. In fact one HD2 signal can be heard further than its analog translator. Compare that with the New York City HDs dropping out after 15 miles and completely gone by 35 miles.

I get consistent analog reception with little static from a 100000 watt flamethrower 85 miles away!

I documented reliable HD reception of Dallas FMs 70 miles from the sticks with a dipole 1 meter above ground. Another observer has done the Houston stations in HD 84 miles out, their dipole was at the ceiling line.

Bottom line, with FM HD coverage like that, a power increase was neither necessary nor justifiable.

 

[tomservo]

I documented reliable HD reception of Dallas FMs 70 miles from the sticks with a dipole 1 meter above ground. Another observer has done the Houston stations in HD 84 miles out, their dipole was at the ceiling line.

Bottom line, with FM HD coverage like that, a power increase was neither necessary nor justifiable.

Sitting still, maybe. Like I said, I had no trouble getting the Mobile Clear Channel FMs in Milton, which was over 50 miles away, with just the aux jack cord for an antenna inside my faraday cage of a car.

The problem is stationary reception is not how most people listen to the radio. Most listen on the go, which is where the extra power is needed to fill in the many, many dead spots HD has.

 

[Chuck]

I documented reliable HD reception of Dallas FMs 70 miles from the sticks with a dipole 1 meter above ground. Another observer has done the Houston stations in HD 84 miles out, their dipole was at the ceiling line.

How many people are going to do that? For that matter, how many people even know what a dipole is?

 

[MickeyD]

It would be interesting to see how many technologies broadcasters have come up with, that have "flopped". I'd say it is approaching 100% ;D .

AM Stereo, Teletext, Digital TV (according to many ), V-Chip (rarely used), .......

Digital TV could have been successful if we chose the correct transmission medium like the rest of the world did. Teh broadcasters wanted to change it when they saw how great it really worked but the CES insisted that we keep the ATSC system.

There is no question in my mind why the FCC wants the broadcasters spectrum back and that is because ATSC doesn't work!

To change an analog system that could be received with a little noise with a system that is far worse doesn;t surprise me. It was changed because it was digital and digital was better.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

How many people are going to do that? For that matter, how many people even know what a dipole is?

That is the standard way coverage is tested. Given that the people I was visiting at the time are rural folks and surrounded by cows - I really doubt the Dallas FMs care about coverage. They were, after all, only 20 miles for the Sherman market. But it proves my point that HD radio power levels are more than adequate at their present levels - the problems with coverage are due to other issues - terrain and other obstructions, planes flying overhead, etc. Events that cause several decades of power fluctuation, thus a mere 10 dB (ten times) power increase is nothing. It won't stop the fades, picket fencing, signal fluctuations on airport approach / departure routes, etc. Given that HD takes several seconds to lock and some of these events can happen in fractions of seconds, a 10X power increase is useless. The exact same FM stations are unreceivable in HD as close as ten miles to the sticks where people are under the approach / departure tracks of DFW airport. Given that a lot of commuters in the area go through that region - it divides the metroplex in two - car listening to HD FM would be affected for miles. Especially on NS routes like Highway 360 and parts of GBT. The Dallas North Tollway parallels approach / departure paths to the very heavily used Love Field. Houston has a similar scenario with I-45, the Hardy Toll road, and Gulf Freeway. They are also congested, so HD FM would be very hard to hear during long morning commutes on those routes. The geometries of many cities are like that. 60 dB signal fluctuations vs. a 10 dB HD power increase = no improvement.

Bottom line - bad engineering, flawed field tests, test conducted by entities that had an agenda to prove HD worked, etc. Maybe specific situations and places might prove a 10 dB increase helps, but it is far more common that it won't. Yet our corrupt FCC rubber stamps anything iBiquity and a few NPR stations want. It would be very helpful if there were real engineers up there instead of corrupt businessmen and lawyers getting rich off of iBiquity. People would would care about the long term usability and quality of the radio spectrum they are supposed to be stewards over.

 

[Chuck]

Well, I agree, especially with your last paragraph. I think the FCC has been "asleep at the switch" on this and many other topics.

I still don't know many people (other than engineers) who would take a dipole out in a cow pasture to see how well HD came in. For most of us, the coverage is "iffy" at either power level, but the interference created by a 10 db power increase is quite noticable.

 

[cd637299]

In Miami-Ft. Lauderdale the past two days, most of the IBOC-capable stations lost it (the IBOC). Some have it back now (5:12 pm EST Sunday), but a few still have it off.

Funny, but I haven't read about it online, nor have I heard any panic out there!

(I myself have been trying to pull in rare adjacent-channel DX via the Sony receiver which is pictured in that link, which I own, but the conditions haven't been exactly prime.)

cd

 

[WPHA]

In Miami-Ft. Lauderdale the past two days, most of the IBOC-capable stations lost it (the IBOC). Some have it back now (5:12 pm EST Sunday), but a few still have it off.

As of a few years ago, there's a station that has to REBOOT their HD exciter every few weeks. It just "locks up" on its own... what is it running on, Windows?

I have also heard plenty of reports of stations with dead air and "stuck CD's" on their HD channels for hours/days/weeks at a time. Yep. Someone really cares.

 

[cd637299]

In Miami-Ft. Lauderdale the past two days, most of the IBOC-capable stations lost it (the IBOC). Some have it back now (5:12 pm EST Sunday), but a few still have it off.

As of a few years ago, there's a station that has to REBOOT their HD exciter every few weeks. It just "locks up" on its own... what is it running on, Windows?

I have also heard plenty of reports of stations with dead air and "stuck CD's" on their HD channels for hours/days/weeks at a time. Yep. Someone really cares.

I dunno how it works....about once or twice a year here, a whole slew of stations, even under different owners, all have their HD go out at practically the same time. I figured it had to do with the transmitter.

cd

 

[Savage]

I thought I recalled someone posted here that HD is Linux-based.

 

[Carmine5]

It would be interesting to see how many technologies broadcasters have come up with, that have "flopped". I'd say it is approaching 100% ;D .

AM Stereo, Teletext, Digital TV (according to many ), V-Chip (rarely used), .......

Digital TV could have been successful if we chose the correct transmission medium like the rest of the world did. Teh broadcasters wanted to change it when they saw how great it really worked but the CES insisted that we keep the ATSC system.

There is no question in my mind why the FCC wants the broadcasters spectrum back and that is because ATSC doesn't work!

To change an analog system that could be received with a little noise with a system that is far worse doesn;t surprise me. It was changed because it was digital and digital was better.

When DTV transmission standards were evaluated, the FCC determined that 8VSB offered better coverage with less power than any of the other standards and was less vulnerable to impulse noise. For all the touted benefits of COFDM (such as being less vulnerable to multi-path interference) it is a power hog. 8VSB works fine in most cases.

The real reason why the government wants TV spectrum back is to control and suppress the broadcast industry. Consider: the GAO has identified some 1500 MHz of government-owned spectrum which could be auctioned off and more than satisfy the needs of wireless communications and broadband for decades to come (and the proceeds would not have to be shared with anyone). So why pick on the tiny amount of 120 MHz from broadcast TV?

A clue comes from a recent statement from former FCC chairman and anti-broadcaster Reed Hundt when he addressed Columbia University in 2010. "We ... thought the Internet would fundamentally be pro-democracy and that broadcast had become a threat to democracy," he said. As we know both Genachowski and Blair Levin, the father of the NBP, served under Hundt and are considered ideologically to be his "bastard children." So these two characters are merely following through on a plot that was hatched years ago. Once the FCC begins repacking the TV band you might as well say goodnight to free OTA television.

And if you think radio is safe, think again. We know the government would love to suppress conservative talk radio or any programming that questions or criticizes the official party line. Who knows what justification they'll use to confiscate broadcast radio spectrum? Hugo Chavez would be very pleased with what is happening to the broadcast industry in this country.

OK, I'm off my soapbox. Now you can continue your discussion on HD Radio.

 

[WPHA]

As of a few years ago, there's a station that has to REBOOT their HD exciter every few weeks. It just "locks up" on its own... what is it running on, Windows?

I have also heard plenty of reports of stations with dead air and "stuck CD's" on their HD channels for hours/days/weeks at a time. Yep. Someone really cares.

I dunno how it works....about once or twice a year here, a whole slew of stations, even under different owners, all have their HD go out at practically the same time. I figured it had to do with the transmitter.

cd

Interesting... Do these boxes "phone home" every so often? (I don't know if they have/require Internet access or not.)

It seems odd that they'd crash in clumps! I wonder if it's somehow time/date related? If it were just some internal counter, eventually, those would all fall out of step with each other... so that is why I wonder if it's something date related? ???