Out of market channels on satellite

[Interstate 78]

Who else agrees with me that there's got to be some kind of rule change with out of market channels on satellite TV (Direct and Dish). It is so frustrating. I am literally a stone's throw from the border of TV markets but because I'm just over the border, I can only get the local TV channels from my market even though I badly want a channel from the other market just down the road. The local cable company offers that channel so I'm tempted to switch, but I hate the process of switching and I've got a good package deal with the satellite company. And I can't get that channel on an antenna either. I've tried but I'm behind a mountain. So why is it that cable companies are allowed to carry out of market channels but satellite companies are only allowed to cover the local channels in that particular market?

 

[BRNout]

I agree with you 100%. In a more perfect world, you'd at least be offered the markets that you could receive with a rooftop antenna. Unfortunately, like most every other entertainment medium, television is a big business that has become fiercely territorial.

Spots and programs are bought and sold on the assumption that a station from Market A has the SOLE distribution rights within it's "territory" (now known as 'the market'). Reception of signals from Market B (which may actually be closer to your house as the crow flies) only serves to dilute that value and stations in Market A don't like that. While they can't do anything about OTA reception, they can do something about second party distribution....and they do it as often as they can. Which is to make sure that you are watching their signal and ONLY their signal if you want their network and live within their counties.

This is why the cable system in my area, which is equidistant from Chicago and Milwaukee, blew out every Milwaukee channel (except for 1 PBS station) back in 1997. Because, as of 1996 (thank you Cable Reform Act), the Chicago locals could make that happen. So, unless you have an antenna (and many of us can't because of HOA rules, etc.), Milwaukee stations are now as foreign here as stations from Baton Rouge.

Now yes, this area is much more oriented toward Chicago than Milwaukee. There's absolutely no argument from me there. Historically, both sets of channels had been available. The many fans of those evil Packers who live around here were guaranteed weekly coverage of their team while the rest of us could watch the Bears. So, why must it be an either/or situation? $$$$$, that's why.

 

[justpassingthough]

Historically, cities and/or suburbs were tied to one central city, though. The scenario actually gets more complicated now that some people live in exurban areas and bedroom communities that could be tied to one than one large city.

For example, my mom lives in Temecula, California- an exurb that is part of the Los Angeles TV market due to its location in Riverside County. They also receive KUSA, a San Diego market station, on Fios though. Arguably, Temecula is more part of the San Diego market- as people commute just across the city limit to San Diego County for work opportunities, and the city is somewhat tied to Camp Pendleton in Northern San Diego County. However, there are also plenty of people who work in Riverside, San Bernardino County, and even Orange and Los Angeles counties- so its a part of both worlds.

I'm guessing its annoying to turn on the TV in the morning in Temecula and get news and weather from LA, when you're making a morning commute towards San Diego.

 

[quadraphonic]

Isn't the market carriage based on some kind of required agreements between the sat/cable company and the stations?

We used to have Dish, and one time, for a hour or so, on channel 9, we were getting some channel from like Denver, and we're in NC. That was the only channel like that, I imagine it was some switch gone bad or something. So I also imagine that the sat/cable companies COULD do a lot of things that they don't do, because they are trying to make the most people the happiest they can be, and maximize their profits and minimize their effort, and the agreements they have to make with the local stations is what makes the difference....

 

[mgsports]

I like to pick up other Cities Channels and on Yoku you can and sometimes S. Dish.

 

[KML0224]

@ JUSTPASSINGTHROUGH: I think you meant KUSI-TV (IND) channel 51 of San Diego? Strange how KUSA-TV (NBC) channel 9 of Denver got mentioned in the next post!

Anyways, is there some rule about a cable company having to provide an out-of-market PBS affiliate? Comcast of New Britain, CT carries WGBY-TV (PBS) channel 57 of Springfield, MA on analog cable channel 12 and in digital elsewhere, but in SD only. Naturally, we get the HD feed of WEDH-TV (PBS) channel 24 of Hartford, along with their subchannels of CPTV 4U (WEDH-TV 24-2) and Create (WEDH-TV 24-3).

 

[ansky212]

Anyways, is there some rule about a cable company having to provide an out-of-market PBS affiliate? Comcast of New Britain, CT carries WGBY-TV (PBS) channel 57 of Springfield, MA on analog cable channel 12 and in digital elsewhere, but in SD only. Naturally, we get the HD feed of WEDH-TV (PBS) channel 24 of Hartford, along with their subchannels of CPTV 4U (WEDH-TV 24-2) and Create (WEDH-TV 24-3).

PBS is probably treated differently because they tend to be more viewer supported than advertiser supported. I live in the NYC area and the only PBS stations I get are in-market. So there is certainly no guarantee that every cable system is going to carry an out of market PBS station.

 

[azumanga]

Anyways, is there some rule about a cable company having to provide an out-of-market PBS affiliate? Comcast of New Britain, CT carries WGBY-TV (PBS) channel 57 of Springfield, MA on analog cable channel 12 and in digital elsewhere, but in SD only. Naturally, we get the HD feed of WEDH-TV (PBS) channel 24 of Hartford, along with their subchannels of CPTV 4U (WEDH-TV 24-2) and Create (WEDH-TV 24-3).

PBS is probably treated differently because they tend to be more viewer supported than advertiser supported. I live in the NYC area and the only PBS stations I get are in-market. So there is certainly no guarantee that every cable system is going to carry an out of market PBS station.

I think there is a policy that states that cable systems should offer at least two PBS stations, if possible -- which is why in some cities that have only one local PBS, you see another PBS from an adjacent market. Case in point is Jacksonville, where Comcast viewers in that city get WUFT Gainesville, in addition to their local PBS station, WJCT. Also, in Tallahassee, Comcast viewers get local WFSU and Albany GPB outlet WABW.

 

[MarcB]

In Southington, CT you get WCBS, WNBC, and WNYW out of NYC on DirecTV in addition to the local Hartford/New Haven Channels. They're not on 2, 4, and 5 however. They're in the 380 range.

 

[justpassingthough]

In Southington, CT you get WCBS, WNBC, and WNYW out of NYC on DirecTV in addition to the local Hartford/New Haven Channels. They're not on 2, 4, and 5 however. They're in the 380 range.

DirecTV has all the NY affiliates in the 380 channels nationwide, and all the LA affiliates in the 390 range nationwide. I can see the NY channels on the guide here in Los Angeles, but I can only watch the LA affiliates on either their 390s channel allocation or where they're mapped to appear on channels 2,4,5 etc.

 

[mgsports]

Night have to suscribe to get New York or others.

 

[dave73]

That's like in Porter & LaPorte Counties of Indiana, that they're between the Chicago & South Bend markets. Cable systems carry the South Bend stations in LaPorte County because they're usually allowed to carry channels that can be picked up OTA, but also because of significantly viewed status. In Porter County Indiana, cable can only carry WNDU (NBC) & WSBT (CBS) because of significantly viewed status. However, if you have an outdoor antenna you can get both Chicago & South Bend. People in those 2 counties usually have a VHF/UHF combo antenna pointed at Chicago, & a UHF only antenna pointed at South Bend. Since Weigel Broadcasting accepted RF 27 for WCWW-LD South Bend, they made that station 15kw non-directional, while weakening the signal of WCIU Chicago, & people are likely getting interference on RF 27, due to both WCIU & WCWW-LD being on that channel.

As for satellite, those 2 counties of Indiana can only get Chicago stations, but LaPorte County residents consider themselves closer to South Bend, but Neilsen has LaPorte County lumped into the Chicago market, & Indianapolis also has them lumped into the Chicago market. LaPorte County also tried to get on Eastern time, but was denied, because Indianapolis considers them part of Chicago, & Not South Bendm though South Bend is much closer to LaPorte County (like Michigan City & LaPorte).

When it comes to PBS, you're typically only allowed to get your own market PBS stations on cable & satellite. If in between markets, cable will most likely offer a neighboring PBS station, like WNIT South Bend being offered to LaPorte County Indiana residents, along with Chicago area PBS stations WTTW & WYCC Chicago, & WYIN Gary, IN. Satellite, they only offer the main channel of the PBS stations in your market. Markets without their own PBS station, cable will pipe in a PBS station from a neighboring market. Rockford, IL is one market that has yet to get their own PBS station, & relies on WHA Madison Wisconsin & WTTW Chicago on cable, while satellite to my knowledge only offers PBS East & West. My sister lives in Lafayette Indiana, & her market only has 1 TV station. Cable TV is allowed to carry the Indianapolis stations, along with WLFI Lafayette (the only TV station, which is also CBS), & have permission to carry WTTW Chicago, & the subchanels in the digital tier (including WTTW Prime, Create, & V-Me). On satellite, she would automatically be eligible for New York & Los Angeles stations on DirecTV (except for WCBS & KCBS, due to being in WLFI's Grade A coverage area), but not sure about Dish Network.

 

[Jazz_Kat]

We live in Tennessee and have Dish Network, we get our local stations, including the Superstation package that include WPIX in New York, KTLA in Los Angeles, KWGN in Denver and couple others. I have no problem with it.

 

[mysticnitekatt]

Isn't there a 50 mile radius "must-carry" rule?

 

[ansky212]

DirecTV has all the NY affiliates in the 380 channels nationwide, and all the LA affiliates in the 390 range nationwide. I can see the NY channels on the guide here in Los Angeles, but I can only watch the LA affiliates on either their 390s channel allocation or where they're mapped to appear on channels 2,4,5 etc.

Those channels in the 380's are only available to customers that live in areas where Directv does not carry local channels. Since you live in the LA area that's why you can see them in the 380's. I live in the NYC area and can see the NY channels in the 380's. Unfortunatley they don't let you subscribe to NY/LA unless local channels are not available. Believe me, I asked.

 

[BRNout]

Isn't there a 50 mile radius "must-carry" rule?

Absolutely not. This is why there are now people in parts of Massachusetts (within the Boston mkt) who live 20 miles from Providence and yet cannot get most Providence channels on cable. Worse yet, folks in NE Rhode Island (about 30 miles from Boston and 25 from the big Route 128 tower) get absolutely NO Boston signals on cable.

No, it's all about which market you're in and whether an adjacent market station can argue that your county qualifies for "significantly viewed" status as far as their station is concerned. Unfortunately, when counties were divvied up 100-200 years ago, the pioneers weren't able to take RF readings from the nearest big cities - so some parts of counties can get the royal shaft as far as this goes. After all, OTA reception on one side of a county may be entirely different than OTA reception on the opposite side.

When it comes to PBS, you're typically only allowed to get your own market PBS stations on cable & satellite.

That's not true. The rules for PBS signals are a little more flexible than they are for commercial stations. In a single market, you can have up to 3, but adjacent market PBS signals may certainly be carried. And there's no syndex/non-dup crap to deal with. For that reason, many cable systems' only out of market offerings are PBS stations. From where I live in Lake County, IL, WMVS Milwaukee (PBS) is offered on our system - both in SD and in HD. Nothing else from Milwaukee is available on cable. As far as satellite or U-verse are concerned, the Chicagoland area is a big island with singular viewing characteristics that is separated from anywhere else by hundreds of miles. So neither offers WMVS, though Northern Indiana's PBS (WYIN) is offered on both. We don't get WYIN where I live, though it replaces WMVS once you get into the Cook County Comcast systems.

The way that TV and radio markets are carved out, they tend to ignore the fact that you'll get different OTA stations from adjacent markets in Waukegan than you will in Joliet or Merrillville, IN. Most large markets have this issue and - believe it or not - cable seems to address the problem better than U-verse/Fios or satellite do.

 

[azumanga]

The way that TV and radio markets are carved out, they tend to ignore the fact that you'll get different OTA stations from adjacent markets in Waukegan than you will in Joliet or Merrillville, IN. Most large markets have this issue and - believe it or not - cable seems to address the problem better than U-verse/Fios or satellite do.

In Fios' case -- Verizon's Fios system offers ABC affiliate WWSB from Sarasota to all subscribers within Verizon's service area, which includes the greater Tampa Bay area. However, subscribers in Haines City and Davenport, in Polk County (part of the Tampa Bay market), will be missing Orlando channels, which are available over-the-air in that region, as well as on Bright House and Comcast.

 

[justpassingthough]

DirecTV has all the NY affiliates in the 380 channels nationwide, and all the LA affiliates in the 390 range nationwide. I can see the NY channels on the guide here in Los Angeles, but I can only watch the LA affiliates on either their 390s channel allocation or where they're mapped to appear on channels 2,4,5 etc.

Those channels in the 380's are only available to customers that live in areas where Directv does not carry local channels. Since you live in the LA area that's why you can see them in the 380's. I live in the NYC area and can see the NY channels in the 380's. Unfortunatley they don't let you subscribe to NY/LA unless local channels are not available. Believe me, I asked.

Even living in Los Angeles, I still see the NY channels on the 380s, listed as ABC-E, CBS-E, etc.- I just can't view them. The west coast affiliates appear in the 390s and are listed as CBS-W, ABC-W, etc but they are viewable to me since they're my local market stations.

 

[Markxxx]

As a consumer I can see why you would want to choose, but if you look at it from the POV of a station owner it wouldn't be fair.

For instance, let's say you go to all the trouble of buying a McDonald's franchise and you pay big bucks for it. Then McDonalds sells another franchise a few miles from you and that other one takes all your business. You paid a lot of money for nothing.

That is basically what the American system is. Because originally TV stations were limited to 7 stations of which no more than five could be VHF.

So they affiliated or franchised them out.

I recall reading a radio history when WLW went to 500,000 watts as an experiment, all the smaller stations screamed murder that it would kill them as everyone would simply watch WLW the big budget station. And they basically did. Fortunately for the smaller stations, the extra money WLW got for advertising didn't offset the extra electricity cost, so they allowed the experiment to drop

TV markets are defined by old standards and political reasoning, (Boston & Providence - DC and Baltimore are close enough to be one market but political boundaries established them separately).

Perhaps a better way to look at it, is to rethink the American system and allow the networks to just have repeater stations across the country and allocate one or two local channels per major metro area.

 

[kenglish]

Perhaps a better way to look at it, is to rethink the American system and allow the networks to just have repeater stations across the country and allocate one or two local channels per major metro area.

That would just kill off the American system of local broadcasting.
It's already being done.