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Per Tom Taylor - WDSY AM/FM Dansville sold for 350k -

Washington, PA, has a City population of more than 15,000. Washington County has a population of 210,000. That compares with Dansville (5500) and Livingston County, NY (66,000 including 6000 inmates at Groveland prison.) So the COL is approximately three times the size and the County is almost four times the size of Livingston. Yes, I know Steuben County is adjacent with 100,000 more people but most of that geography isn't in play since Steuben's landmass is huge. The County is approximately the same size as the State of Rhode Island. I would venture to estimate that 90% of Steuben's pop is outside WDNY's 60 dBu. As noted previously there may be some scraps of business obtainable from Hornell, but that's a city that's already massively overmedia'ed (even factoring the demise of one of its two AM signals, WHHO.)

I spent a lot of time in Pittsburgh radio as PD of 13Q and afternoon drive at WHTX. The Pittsburgh metro is vastly bigger with far more radio revenues than the Rochester market, and Washington, PA is more closely connected with the major metro pop center than Dansville is to Rochester. It's a pretty isolated small community.

Apples-and-oranges is correct.
 
radioray said:
I don't think you can make money there doing live and local radio!

I'm not sure anyone said "live." But there are small staffs making stations sound local even when carrying mostly syndicated programming.

Regarding the business case, I'll defer to Savage's take on this, but it has to help when you don't have tens-of-millions of dollars in debt to serve.
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Savage said:
Apples-and-oranges is correct.
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Thanks for the population comparison between Washington City/County and Dansville/Livingston County...I didn't have the numbers at hand, hence the apples-oranges qualifier. Still I would think the isolation from Rochester (45 miles and hilly terrain) would give WDNY even more of an advantage, assuming that size population and per-capita income could support those stations.

And it's true Paul, if you can make it sound local...after all, perception is reality. The acid test will come when an emergency strikes. If a live person can break in and relate vital information, where the programming originates on a normal day will be less of an issue.

BTW Savage, I didn't know you had programmed 13Q...thanks for some great radio and memories, people 'round these parts still talk about it today. And the old 'HTX has been racking up some great PPM's lately as a CC Kiss station.
 
After working in the Buffalo market following college I went to work at a small market radio station in the Southern Tier. I learned alot working in Buffalo with "corporate radio," I saw people with tenure and great ratings get shown the door all for "cost cutting" reasons. It was a downer and it really made me think if radio was going to be for me. After leaving corporate radio I moved with my girlfriend at the time to this small market to do afternoons. I had a blast! I stuck to the programming aspect because I am not a salesman. After just a few months I became the MD and a couple of months after that the PD. I had a blast working in the small market, it was nice to be a "big fish in a little pond" someone told me that one time and it's stuck with me ever since. When I moved to the small market station one thing that drove me nuts was that small town state of mind, I got the impression from people that because it was a small market station it needs to sound that way, we changed that quick. We re-positioned the music, the imaging and started talking BIG as in BIG market. The long days doing the job of five people, wearing the promotions hat and handling the majority of the production was stressful but looking back on it now was so much fun, it was the perfect opportunity to be creative. The only thing was having to worry about was my paycheck being late. I say all that to say this, small market radio is fun and it has both pros and cons, in my case it had a ton of pros. Brian I am happy for you in purchasing WDNY, you sound like the type of owner that radio needs!
 
Without nitpicking, Dansville is 56 miles from Rochester, but the distance factor is a good news/bad news thing. If your assumption is that being outside the primary coverage of major metro stations increases interest in the local signals, then that's positive. But that also makes you more dependent on local retail to generate revenue and distances you, figuratively and literally, from Rochester's $40M in annual radio revenues (estimate for 2011.) Is there a sufficient population and revenue base to support two signals? You decide.

Our connections with Pittsburgh are strong at WYSL. Our morning show is Jim Quinn and Rose Tennent from WPGB, and our imaging voice is the incomparable Kelly Pidgeon of KDKA. Like you I've had a blast in two stints in the 'Burgh, and lots of great memories. OB&G were indisputably the funniest morning act in the history of radio, IMO.
 
Savage said:
Without nitpicking, Dansville is 56 miles from Rochester, but the distance factor is a good news/bad news thing. If your assumption is that being outside the primary coverage of major metro stations increases interest in the local signals, then that's positive. But that also makes you more dependent on local retail to generate revenue and distances you, figuratively and literally, from Rochester's $40M in annual radio revenues (estimate for 2011.) Is there a sufficient population and revenue base to support two signals? You decide.

Our connections with Pittsburgh are strong at WYSL. Our morning show is Jim Quinn and Rose Tennent from WPGB, and our imaging voice is the incomparable Kelly Pidgeon of KDKA. Like you I've had a blast in two stints in the 'Burgh, and lots of great memories. OB&G were indisputably the funniest morning act in the history of radio, IMO.
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Wow...small world.

I work with Kelly since KDKA moved to Green Tree last November. Great guy, a real pro! And I've met Q&R numerous times over the past dozen or so years...no one is better at adapting a national talk platform to AM drive IMHO, and I've heard him reference WYSL often when I listen, so it sounds like the show is working up there.

And O'Brien & Garry were indeed two of the best!

To Dansville...I wasn't even considering national dollars in my arguments. Unless there's a Tops or some other regional/national brand directly impacting the market. (Even a Nice N' Easy?) Which based on what little I know the rural regions of the Southern Tier, probably isn't much.

My thought was to building relationships with local retail and looking for ways to show tangible results to those clients...at least better results than the local paper if there is one. Hiring someone gifted at creative copywriting may be the best means to that end. Of course they have to be able to do nine other jobs as well - nobody has dedicated copywriters anymore that I know of!

I looked at the old thread and got a better handle on location (off 390, a plus) and economic conditions (lost Foster-Wheeler not long ago) etc. Definitely not the areas whose stations I'd linked to earlier. I'd be more inclined to say now that it's going to take an imaginative combo of local and satellite to make it work, and as stated earlier, building a rep as the "go-to" when an emergency or some event of local interest happens.

Brian, I wish you the best!
 
Well my question is WDNY has been on the air for many years and AFAIK they're not owned by some millionaire running it as a tax write off, so the current owners must be making some profit. I've been to Dansville. Nice little town. There's a fair amount of commerce there(though once you get out of town you're really in rural country). So the new owners should at least be able to continue to make the same profits the outgoing owners have made?

And even in a small town like Dansville, I would think there would be opportunities for local lease time programming for home fix it guys and local churches on the weekend. And of course, there's always high school sports.
 
Excellent points all, cee. Especially high school sports!
 
Allow me to also extend best wishes to the new owner of WDNY in Dansville. With the current personnel massacre going on in some major market radio operations, small market radio might be the only salvation left for people who desire a career in broadcasting.

When it comes to radio in the Southern Tier and southern Livingston County, I know from personal experience the pros and cons having started my career in the Bath and Corning markets

Bob (Savage) is correct about the size of Steuben County and the coverage area for most radio stations.

I'm sure there have been numerous changes since I worked in Bath/Corning back in the early 1970s, but I can tell you that when I go to visit my relatives in Corning it is very difficult to hear a number of radio stations in that area for a certain distance. As for potential radio revenue, Corning and Hornell are the only two communities in Steuben County that can boast any major centralized population. The rest of the county is made up of much smaller towns, villages and hamlets.

Personally I don't know how some of these radio stations in small markets continue to exist, especially when factoring in the current economy, plus the signal coverage and population in the markets these stations are intended to serve.
 
I don't know much about sales, but...if I were running such an operation, I'd look at every alternative source of revenue. If you can run an hour informercial at 7 at night(on the AM?) and get $30 - that's $30 you normally wouldn't get. How about, like the daily newspapers, running "At Your Service" co-op ads - any home based service business(plumbers, handymen, gardeners, cleaning services, etc.) could get whatever their service is plugged in a one minute ad along with other home service providers. I wouldn't just run high school sports, I'd run little league, teenage and adult amateur baseball and softball during the summer. I would think of any possible way I could get someone or some group to purchase ads or block time. And of course, there's always the Saturday morning auction block.
 
cee said:
I don't know much about sales, but...if I were running such an operation, I'd look at every alternative source of revenue. If you can run an hour informercial at 7 at night(on the AM?) and get $30 - that's $30 you normally wouldn't get. How about, like the daily newspapers, running "At Your Service" co-op ads - any home based service business(plumbers, handymen, gardeners, cleaning services, etc.) could get whatever their service is plugged in a one minute ad along with other home service providers. I wouldn't just run high school sports, I'd run little league, teenage and adult amateur baseball and softball during the summer. I would think of any possible way I could get someone or some group to purchase ads or block time. And of course, there's always the Saturday morning auction block.
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Maybe pull a page from Ed Levine at Galaxy Broadcasting in Syracuse...put on local events or invest in an existing local event in exchange for percentage of ownership...could be a great source of NTR, plus build goodwill in the market to drive future revenue.
 
Re: Per Tom Taylor - WDNY AM/FM Dansville sold for 350k -

We signed on WDNY-AM in October, 1978. What an exciting experience. The station was originally at 1600 khz and was a daytimer without Pre-sunrise authority. Wihin several months we got PSA but it took another 18 months or so to get to 1400 khz...the same frequency as the old WYSL in Buffalo. Bill Sitzman is an AM engineering genius and was able to shoe horn us in. I don't know of any other station that powers up (not down) at night. 880 watts day and 1000 watts at night. The stations have a very loyal audience with TSL numbers very high. The local population has always been very supportive of WDNY. The station was one of the first stations to go 24 hours with the Larry King show all night. The local cable company ran a line to the Dansville Police Station to monitor our remote control. Only in small towns can that happen.

When we sold to Mark Miller he moved the station down the street and converted it into one of the nicest small market stations I have ever seen. The old tin ceilings are still there. Stop in and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The stations sound great and do a ton of local sports. I hired Frank Williams back in 1978 and Mark Miller at the same time. How many stations can say their staff has been there 30+ years. Frank does a great job with play-by-play and coach's interviews. He did a couple of seasons of play-by-play with Pete Brown(?) and the Rochester Red Wings back in the early 80s You won't find a more dedicated, loyal announcer than Frank.

The morning show has always been strong. Mark recently hired a retired Dansville police officer to handle the morning show. He sounds good and has all the contacts for great local news.

Brain sounds very energetic and with the addition of a couple good sales persons the station can be a success. There's nothing more exciting than a good sounding local radio station.

WDNY became the training ground for some great announcers. Tracy Davidson is a TV anchor at the NBC station in Philadelphia. Jeff Whitson was GM at a TV station in Albany and in Jacksonville, FL. Craig Harris is our manager/part owner of WCDO in Sidney, NY. We have owned those stations for 25 years and he has done it all. We cash flow $250,000 annually. Not bad for a population the same size as Dansville. Small market radio can be very rewarding.
 
Hey Brian, first off, congratulations! I was VERY close to buying these 2 stations 2 years ago. We had the FCC papers in hand, but at the last minute, the price just made me nervous for what I was getting. It was not the $350,000, that you paid, and i am sure you would understand the price that it was when i was dealing with Mark. He is a good guy and i am sure that his involvement helped your ability to purchase the station. It really does have some money making potential. The building and studios are nice, although the signal is just not consistent beyond the actual Dansville area. From a sales standpoint, it will be hard to live off Dansville. It is a depressed area. Focus on Rochester and Rochester suburbs for sales at WDNY, keep your current client happy too. Your pitch for Rochester should be that people from Dansville shop and purchase stuff in Roch! I know WDNY's account list, and if you get just a few major car dealers, or health industry clients, you will be doing much better than the sales figures that WDNY has had. I have a programming idea as well that would make total sense, but let's talk off this board sometime and i will tell you about it. Good luck with these stations. With effort, you can triple current revenue in my opinion. Congrats again!
 
"I have a programming idea..." Heh, heh. Supey. Always selling. EVERYBODY has a programming idea. They're all winners, can't-lose-home-runs. Ask The Expert. Tradio. Swap Shop. Doo-Wop Shop. Metal Shop. Wood shop (you'd sell that to Home Depot and/or Lowes) Chop Shop (that gets sold to Groveland and the NYSDOC). Five cold calls and five appointments a day. Here's the phone book. Now hit the streets and don't come back until and unless you close.
 
Hey El- trust me not "everybody" has the idea i had for Dansville. I am not talking Tradio, Ask the Expert, etc. Give me more credit than that. I was one signature away from owning these stations, and know everything that needs to be known, and had a stategy. As most people on this board can appreciate passionate radio programming, and not just syndication or VT, you would love my idea, and i really cannot believe it has not been done anywhere yet, ANYWHERE. And yes you are right, cold calls and closing are needed, but if you have a unique selling proposition, it makes that alot easier. What Brian will desperatly need with these stations are good people. That will not be that easy to find. I realize that programming is as important as sales. But you will not be programming anything if your revenue is not there. This station will never be a ratings winner, but it can be a cash cow.
 
superset weekend said:
I was one signature away from owning these stations, and know everything that needs to be known, and had a strategy... ...This station will never be a ratings winner, but it can be a cash cow.
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Interesting. Would you have done the deal for WDNY A/F @ $350k as it is structured for the present buyer, $100k down, six months interest only on principle, remainder financed?

People familiar with the particulars have suggested that last year's deal for WKPQ http://www.rbr.com/radio/radio_deals/station-swap-coming-in-elmira-corning-ny.htm which has a bigger signal, was a better deal. Don't know if I buy that, but that's what this board is for. It's water over the dam, but it seems that had WHHO-AM 1320 been kept alive, a WHHO-WKPQ combo might offer better opportunities. Then again, see Savage's comments regarding the county, market and local economy.
 
Wow Jim, i had not seen the KPQ deal until you had posted this- that would have been a FAR better deal, in my opinion! I cannot believe that stick went for $350K! Just off the top of my head, not knowing the financials, i would of jumped at that, had i known! As far as DNY for 350K.....it depends. The person who bought that will have to be there and live there, for sure, and they really have got to know how to sell ads. I am sure that the new person has alot of passion, that is probably why the owner held paper, which is another great incentive the station.

Long story made short....those stations can be a cash cow, and it is smart to have Mark Miller as an investor! He is a great guy, and knows the market well. The new owners will need to eat, breathe and sleep WDNY.
 
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