Quick AM Nightime Bandscan Highlights 10/4/21 9pm CDT Sault Ste, Marie, Ontario

[cyberdad]

9th floor hotel room. First of all, all six 59kw Chicago blowtorchess were present with very good signals. WSCR probably the best, but I was pretty sure I was hearing R. Rebelde underneath. Also WIND and WMFN were in. WIND on 560 mixing with CFOS. CFOS getting the better of it. Othrer quick highlights....

610: WTVN with a very good signal
620: WTMJ good
630: CFCO faor
660: WFAN good
730: CKAC on top of CKDM
750: WSB good
820: CHAM on top of WBAP
900: CHML fair
950: WWJ good
1010: CFRB good
1090: WKBZ blowing out KAAY
1130: Two very strong signals mixing WISN and WDFN
1190: WOWO sighting!
1290: WHIO on top
1310: WIBA on top

If any of you guys have specific questions, let me know.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Try these if you stay in SSM again. Rich computed the strongest skywaves, WWJ 950 and WFDF 910. The 10% Skywave exceeds the NIF contour, although both are often on transmitter and DA maintenance, AUX, or STA at lower power. Many others with two or three ~5 kW Night stations blasting in that direction, such as WGRB 1390 and WLCM 1390, WSDS 1480 and WGVU 1480, etc.

580 WTCM
590 WKZO
700 WLW
740 CFZM
760 WJR
800 CKLW
830 WCCO
850 WGVS
860 CJBC
890 WLS
910 WFDF
1030 WBZ
1060 KYW
1140 WRVA
1180 WHAM
1270 WXYT
1300 WOOD
1380 WPHM
1500 WLQV
1530 WCKY
1550 CBE
1600 WAAM

 

[radioman148]

Thanks for the report Cyberdad.

 

[cyberdad]

Try these if you stay in SSM again. Rich computed the strongest skywaves, WWJ 950 and WFDF 910. The 10% Skywave exceeds the NIF contour, although both are often on transmitter and DA maintenance, AUX, or STA at lower power. Many others with two or three ~5 kW Night stations blasting in that direction, such as WGRB 1390 and WLCM 1390, WSDS 1480 and WGVU 1480, etc.

I actually heard just about all of those on your list. I should have ,entioned WFDF, which was an absolute monster sounding like a local. A few other notes based on your response to my post....

580: WTCM. I heard it, but it was weak and fade prone.
590: WKZO fair-good
700: WLW. "The big one" had a signal that was "a good one".
740: CFZM fair at best. Tonight I'm in Belleville, Ontario which is in their convergence zone. So also fair at best here.
830: WCCO weak, A bit of a surprise. It's been blasting lately at my home location.
860: CJBC. Same tower as CFZM. Same result as CFZM
890: WLS As posted originally, all of the Chicago blowtorches were good. WLS was no exception
1030: WBZ fair
1060: KYW weak, but on top of one or two other signals
1140: WRVA fair-weak
1180: WHAM fair-weak
1270: WXYT fair, but comfortably on top
1300; WOOD fair....not as strong as WIBA "next door" on 1310
1500: WLQV fair-good
1530: WCKY fair-good (I expected it to be stronger).
1500: CBE....now CEBEF. Whatever the CBC calls it, I called it "missing".

 

[gr8oldies]

I actually heard just about all of those on your list. I should have ,entioned WFDF, which was an absolute monster sounding like a local. A few other notes based on your response to my post....

580: WTCM. I heard it, but it was weak and fade prone.
590: WKZO fair-good
700: WLW. "The big one" had a signal that was "a good one".
740: CFZM fair at best. Tonight I'm in Belleville, Ontario which is in their convergence zone. So also fair at best here.
830: WCCO weak, A bit of a surprise. It's been blasting lately at my home location.
860: CJBC. Same tower as CFZM. Same result as CFZM
890: WLS As posted originally, all of the Chicago blowtorches were good. WLS was no exception
1030: WBZ fair
1060: KYW weak, but on top of one or two other signals
1140: WRVA fair-weak
1180: WHAM fair-weak
1270: WXYT fair, but comfortably on top
1300; WOOD fair....not as strong as WIBA "next door" on 1310
1500: WLQV fair-good
1530: WCKY fair-good (I expected it to be stronger).
1500: CBE....now CEBEF. Whatever the CBC calls it, I called it "missing".

CBEF, now 1550, formerly 540. Much better frequency to have kept

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Both the 540 and the 1550 frequencies had advantages. 1550 is a Canadian I-B frequency, although they only operate with 10 kW. The protected 1550 skywave just isn't what it used to be, due to noise and cochannel interference. The 2.5/5 DA-1 ground wave signal on 540 was obviously better in Canada and the far Eastern parts of Michigan. The story was that the four 540 towers were rusting out and the phasor was badly in need of repair and replacement of components. It was decided that it was too expensive to fix.

 

[schmave]

That northbound lobe from WTVN never fails to amaze me. That's something like 450 miles north of Columbus as the crow flies.
I was wondering about CKLW. I've had trouble hearing it in Detroit's northern suburbs at night, an area where I thought it would come in very well. That was over 20 years ago, but even so, any lobe that covers Windsor proper has to sail beyond into the U.S.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

CKLW came in better before all the 800s in the US were able to use up to 500 watts Nighttime. And before PJB with 500 kW was operating.

And even though the pattern didn't go that well NW, it was supposed to have close to the equivalent of 5 kW nondirectional in the minor lobes and nulls. Before CKLW went to 50 kW DA-2 in circa 1947, it was 5 kW nondirectional.

 

[gr8oldies]

That northbound lobe from WTVN never fails to amaze me. That's something like 450 miles north of Columbus as the crow flies.
I was wondering about CKLW. I've had trouble hearing it in Detroit's northern suburbs at night, an area where I thought it would come in very well. That was over 20 years ago, but even so, any lobe that covers Windsor proper has to sail beyond into the U.S.

Imagine if WTVN had been able to construct the second site south of Columbus and run 50,000 watts at night. Radio Free Canada!

 

[cyberdad]

I've had trouble hearing it in Detroit's northern suburbs at night, an area where I thought it would come in very well. That was over 20 years ago, but even so, any lobe that covers Windsor proper has to sail beyond into the U.S.

CKLW was not good in SSM. In fact, I suspected that I might actually be hearing Montreal, but I didn't hang around long enough to find out.

 

[schmave]

Imagine if WTVN had been able to construct the second site south of Columbus and run 50,000 watts at night. Radio Free Canada!

Kind of makes you wonder how far that signal can make it at night. I don't know about as far as Hudson Bay, but that wouldn't shock me. SSM exceeds my expectations even with about 20K watts ERP purely because of the distance.
Re. CKLW, I was around Pontiac in the earlier instance I mentioned. This was in the late 90s. Even if CKLW was sending 5K or so in that direction, it should have sounded much better than it did. Their pattern really must be tighter than I think since Pontiac isn't all that far off due north from their transmitter site.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The WTVN Application was for 50 kW Night with 8 towers. It would have been heard in Scandinavia as a "pest", as most of those stations listed are, but worse. With the IBOC sidebands, I bet the North Bay, ON station, CKAT, would have filed a major treaty agreement objection. WTAC/WSNL 600 was paid to get a CP for a Class D as a Daytimer because the IBOC and otherwise first adjacent interference was so strong. The NIMBYs held it up for so long, the owner decided not continue the agreement, and made it Class B from another location. Clear Channel should have been smarter than to try this in a college town.

Part of the problem with CKLW in the NW Detroit Suburban areas may have to do with heavy development over the 1960s reducing the signal. Oakland County has a population which is about twice that of the City of Detroit, and about twice what Oakland County was in 1960, which was the decade of the glory days of CKLW.

 

[gr8oldies]

Kind of makes you wonder how far that signal can make it at night. I don't know about as far as Hudson Bay, but that wouldn't shock me. SSM exceeds my expectations even with about 20K watts ERP purely because of the distance.
Re. CKLW, I was around Pontiac in the earlier instance I mentioned. This was in the late 90s. Even if CKLW was sending 5K or so in that direction, it should have sounded much better than it did. Their pattern really must be tighter than I think since Pontiac isn't all that far off due north from their transmitter site.

I stayed in Dearborn one night and still had to null PJB to get CKLW clearly

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I stayed in Dearborn one night and still had to null PJB to get CKLW clearly.

That's probably why, at least the field strength level at Night, why WKNR Keener 13 rocketed to the Top of the ratings for a while, as their signal headed straight up Telegraph Rd. at Night.That served the area where CKLW is and was weaker.

There has always been a null to the NW in the CKLW DA Pattern since 1947, how deep it was over the years is another point of discussion.

CKLW-Daytime-Coverage-Pattern-1981-MCRFB3-2020.png

 

[gr8oldies]

I've thought that sales-generated pattern map was a little generous, especially in North Central Indiana was a little generous (as most are). Other places in Ohio it seems about right from my experience

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I've thought that sales-generated pattern map was a little generous, especially in North Central Indiana was a little generous (as most are). Other places in Ohio it seems about right from my experience

Rich and I have tried to make sense of it for a while. Some places, it looks like it would match the 0.1 mV/m rather than the 0.5 mV/m contour. The other possibility is if it was measured during Daytime skywave. A third possibility is that Lake Huron is much higher real conductivity. J. P. McCarthy and John McMurray used to sail Lake Huron, and talked about hearing WJR in the Daytime on the North Shore of Lake Huron, like near Manitoulin Island, back in the day.

 

[gr8oldies]

I trust maps designed for sales kits as far as I could throw them as a paper airplane. Somewhere is the "real" pattern from those days

 

[davideduardo]

I trust maps designed for sales kits as far as I could throw them as a paper airplane. Somewhere is the "real" pattern from those days

Of course, back when CKLW was a Top 40 powerhouse the man-made noise levels were radically lower than today. In urbanized areas, the ITU says 15 mV/m is required. That may be a bit exaggeraged, but 10 mV/m is pretty much today's minimum for city listening.

 

[Gregg.]

You mention that 660 WFAN NYC was "good" and I think the most distant station you heard. I wonder how 770 WABC and 880 WCBS were doing? Even though they're on the same tower with the same 50 kw non-directional signal, I was able to get 880 every night near Tampa but not 660.

Also 1210 WPHT Philadelphia is a non-directional legacy Class I-A 50 kw station, only 90 miles from NYC. Yet it never seems to be heard as well as 660, 770 or 880. Even though it's directional, KYW 1060 seems to be heard better in the Central Time Zone than WPHT.

 

[cyberdad]

You mention that 660 WFAN NYC was "good" and I think the most distant station you heard. I wonder how 770 WABC and 880 WCBS were doing? Even though they're on the same tower with the same 50 kw non-directional signal, I was able to get 880 every night near Tampa but not 660.

Also 1210 WPHT Philadelphia is a non-directional legacy Class I-A 50 kw station, only 90 miles from NYC. Yet it never seems to be heard as well as 660, 770 or 880. Even though it's directional, KYW 1060 seems to be heard better in the Central Time Zone than WPHT.

WABC was weaker than I expected. Alone, but with only a with a fair signal. WCBS was mixing with CKLQ from Manitoba. WPHT had a good signal.

WFAN surprised me with a good signal at all of my overnight stops. It's tough duty at my home location near Chicago, but WABC and WCBS are regulars....albeit prone to splatter from WBBM and WLS respectively. (CKLQ is an occasional pest for WCBS).