B
bigtalkradiofan
Guest
bigtalkradiofan said:
HC,
Any thoughts on my re-formulation of your idea?
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REAL dangerous thinking: “Listeners tune-in to hear compelling hosts.”
- Thread starter Holland Cooke
- Start date
HC,
Any thoughts on my re-formulation of your idea?
Holland,
Your insistance that callers be the thrust of the show is absurd. They CANNOT be depended upon to come through day to day, PERIOD.
The responsibility of a show's success starts and stops with the host.
Whatever THEY need to do to get and hold an audience is different from show to show. But there is ONE constant: The audience is there to hear how THE HOST deals with whatever material is being discussed and how the host is interacting with whatever other elements there are---callers among them.
This reliance on calls and "playing'" to the phones flies in the face of not only common snese, but also what some of our most successful and insightful talk programmers have espoused. And I'm not talking about the Rush-clone specialists.
Again, this DOES NOT mean talk radio should be ideologues preaching "Republican's good, Democrats bad".
On May 26, 2009---just as on May 26 2005, or 2006 or 2007, as belts are tightened further in this business, the hosts who are interesting enough to hold an audience without RELYING on caller quality will still be able to do that. Those who de-emphasize themselves and play to the phones will fade into oblivion faster than ever before.
Your insistance that callers be the thrust of the show is absurd. They CANNOT be depended upon to come through day to day, PERIOD.
The responsibility of a show's success starts and stops with the host.
Whatever THEY need to do to get and hold an audience is different from show to show. But there is ONE constant: The audience is there to hear how THE HOST deals with whatever material is being discussed and how the host is interacting with whatever other elements there are---callers among them.
This reliance on calls and "playing'" to the phones flies in the face of not only common snese, but also what some of our most successful and insightful talk programmers have espoused. And I'm not talking about the Rush-clone specialists.
Again, this DOES NOT mean talk radio should be ideologues preaching "Republican's good, Democrats bad".
On May 26, 2009---just as on May 26 2005, or 2006 or 2007, as belts are tightened further in this business, the hosts who are interesting enough to hold an audience without RELYING on caller quality will still be able to do that. Those who de-emphasize themselves and play to the phones will fade into oblivion faster than ever before.
During the 1PM hour on "Open Line Friday," Rush got to his first caller at 35.
Respectfully:
More-gently: You're still bouncing-around the inside-the-box echo chamber.
NOTHING PERSONAL. This is an industry-wide myopia. Yesterday or today, one of the trades was quoting some dang consultant's surmise about WHICH-station-that-went-all-Christmas-too-early wins. Has our industry become THIS limited and self-centered, and out-of-synch with "real people?"
I'm wary of using this space to praise clients (although the latest numbers warrant a shout-out to the guys in Raleigh alrighty).
But -- as any host who suffers my coaching on an ongoing basis will tell you -- I don't know ANYONE who's using the phone enough.
Anyone-IN-RADIO, that is.
People OUTSIDE-the-box are using-the-phone like cuh-RAY-zee.
Here's the math:
Time-spent-doing-things with smartphones is up, up, up.
+
Radio Time Spent Listening is eroding. Has been for years, even with cume UP slightly.
=
Turn-the-smartphones INTO RADIO PROGRAMMING.
Good holiday afternoon, from the TOP thread on the News/Talk board,
HC
www.HollandCooke.com
bigtalkradiofan said:
Respectfully:
Holland Cooke said:
More-gently: You're still bouncing-around the inside-the-box echo chamber.
NOTHING PERSONAL. This is an industry-wide myopia. Yesterday or today, one of the trades was quoting some dang consultant's surmise about WHICH-station-that-went-all-Christmas-too-early wins. Has our industry become THIS limited and self-centered, and out-of-synch with "real people?"
gr8oldies said:
I'm wary of using this space to praise clients (although the latest numbers warrant a shout-out to the guys in Raleigh alrighty).
But -- as any host who suffers my coaching on an ongoing basis will tell you -- I don't know ANYONE who's using the phone enough.
Anyone-IN-RADIO, that is.
People OUTSIDE-the-box are using-the-phone like cuh-RAY-zee.
Here's the math:
Time-spent-doing-things with smartphones is up, up, up.
+
Radio Time Spent Listening is eroding. Has been for years, even with cume UP slightly.
=
Turn-the-smartphones INTO RADIO PROGRAMMING.
Good holiday afternoon, from the TOP thread on the News/Talk board,
HC
www.HollandCooke.com
Could part of the solution be as simple as setting up a twitter page for the show that the audience could follow and submit their blogs, news, comments, etc? Host could constantly update what the next topic is and even post a link. Host also gets to discover what is top of mind for the audience. Twitter is accessible from most wireless phones of the smart and not so smart persuasion.
Yes!
That's a tool that smart hosts and stations are using.
Facebook is EXTREMELY useful.
ep2453 said:
That's a tool that smart hosts and stations are using.
Facebook is EXTREMELY useful.
In six months...
In six months or six years, my guess is that it'll be more of the same because:
1) Most radio suits, being the mental midgets uh, "little people" ;D they are, have a very narrow conception of what "talk radio" is supposed to sound like...
2) As consolidation continues, we'll get less and less of anything "different" from the norm; when times get tight, everyone plays it safe...
As always, I would love to be proven wrong on this... :
In six months or six years, my guess is that it'll be more of the same because:
1) Most radio suits, being the mental midgets uh, "little people" ;D they are, have a very narrow conception of what "talk radio" is supposed to sound like...
2) As consolidation continues, we'll get less and less of anything "different" from the norm; when times get tight, everyone plays it safe...
As always, I would love to be proven wrong on this... :
Holland Cooke said:
I'd beg to argue with all...and I hate to with Holland given his experience.
But I will anyway.
Callers aren't the answer. Just what I want to listen to, another guy who doesn't know much telling the guy on the air what little he knows.
Why do I care what someone else thinks? I do care about what someone else KNOWS.
And therein lies the answer.
Forget about callers. Forget about having "Joe" call in with HIS answer to fiscal meltdown. Joe knows less than Bob who knows less than Alice. Collectively they know very little.
No invited on a former Fed Chairman who actually knows something...even if he doesn't have all the answers...and everyone actually gets something out of the conversation.
But that requires hosts to actually study. It requires them to get their head out of their a%$s and actually learn something and ask intelligent questions.
It requires them to actually think, which may be impossible for some and difficult for others, especially since in doing so it would require them to toss out foundationless opinions in favor of actual fact.
Good luck on that ever happening.
But I will anyway.
Callers aren't the answer. Just what I want to listen to, another guy who doesn't know much telling the guy on the air what little he knows.
Why do I care what someone else thinks? I do care about what someone else KNOWS.
And therein lies the answer.
Forget about callers. Forget about having "Joe" call in with HIS answer to fiscal meltdown. Joe knows less than Bob who knows less than Alice. Collectively they know very little.
No invited on a former Fed Chairman who actually knows something...even if he doesn't have all the answers...and everyone actually gets something out of the conversation.
But that requires hosts to actually study. It requires them to get their head out of their a%$s and actually learn something and ask intelligent questions.
It requires them to actually think, which may be impossible for some and difficult for others, especially since in doing so it would require them to toss out foundationless opinions in favor of actual fact.
Good luck on that ever happening.
RE "Callers aren't the answer."
Callers aren't the issue.
Lack of 'em is a symptom.
Correct.
Asking callers for expertise is a losing game.
Asking them for feelings can be lively talk radio.
00-05 (the newscast) is about facts.
Hear what we have to say.
05-00 (inviting callers to weigh-in on the-topic-at-hand, often something reported 00-05) is about feelings.
Let's hear what you have to say.
Asking Joe and Alice to solve the problem is pointless.
Letting them vent, hash-it-out, arm-wrestle, gives the show value.
Callers aren't the issue, they're the symptom.
The issue is attention-numbing business-as-usual.
Which, in Talk Radio, is I-talk-you-listen blah blah blah.
WHILE, in-every-way-they-can, people are choosing interactivity, elsewhere.
When programming degenerates into same-old-same-old, Time Spent Listening wanders.
Thus my suggestion that -- because radio TSL is down, while smartphone use is up/up/up -- we should put more smartphones on the air.
But, as I acknowledged earlier, questioning the "compelling hosts" crutch is threatening.
So, to pull-back-and-take-an-even-wider-angle-shot, here's an example that might be easier to view objectively.
It's a local TV news business-as-usual cliche: the-night-before-Thanksgiving.
All 4 local stations will be dutifully set up at the airport.
And, if they haven't downsized the news department too much yet, the Amtrak station.
It's already in the Assignments daybook for the-Wednesday-night-before-Thanksgiving-NEXT-year.
They'll all be there.
Last year, I flew home the TUESDAY before Thanksgiving.
The airport was a MADHOUSE.
And not a TV crew in sight.
Because this particular news was "scheduled" for the next night.
Imagine if ONE-of-the-four local stations WAS there Tuesday night.
Suppose it's the Fox affiliate.
And, at-the-top-of the 10 O'Clock News, they went live to the airport.
When that shot came on the monitor in the other 3 newsrooms, those other 3 newsrooms would've been stunned.
And that 10 O'Clock show would've looked-different-than -- and seemed a-step-ahead-of -- the other 3 shows.
Other-3-stations: Don't worry. It won't happen. Business-as-usual. Blah blah blah.
Callers aren't the issue.
Lack of 'em is a symptom.
justareporter said:
Correct.
Asking callers for expertise is a losing game.
Asking them for feelings can be lively talk radio.
00-05 (the newscast) is about facts.
Hear what we have to say.
05-00 (inviting callers to weigh-in on the-topic-at-hand, often something reported 00-05) is about feelings.
Let's hear what you have to say.
Asking Joe and Alice to solve the problem is pointless.
Letting them vent, hash-it-out, arm-wrestle, gives the show value.
Callers aren't the issue, they're the symptom.
The issue is attention-numbing business-as-usual.
Which, in Talk Radio, is I-talk-you-listen blah blah blah.
WHILE, in-every-way-they-can, people are choosing interactivity, elsewhere.
When programming degenerates into same-old-same-old, Time Spent Listening wanders.
Thus my suggestion that -- because radio TSL is down, while smartphone use is up/up/up -- we should put more smartphones on the air.
But, as I acknowledged earlier, questioning the "compelling hosts" crutch is threatening.
So, to pull-back-and-take-an-even-wider-angle-shot, here's an example that might be easier to view objectively.
It's a local TV news business-as-usual cliche: the-night-before-Thanksgiving.
All 4 local stations will be dutifully set up at the airport.
And, if they haven't downsized the news department too much yet, the Amtrak station.
It's already in the Assignments daybook for the-Wednesday-night-before-Thanksgiving-NEXT-year.
They'll all be there.
Last year, I flew home the TUESDAY before Thanksgiving.
The airport was a MADHOUSE.
And not a TV crew in sight.
Because this particular news was "scheduled" for the next night.
Imagine if ONE-of-the-four local stations WAS there Tuesday night.
Suppose it's the Fox affiliate.
And, at-the-top-of the 10 O'Clock News, they went live to the airport.
When that shot came on the monitor in the other 3 newsrooms, those other 3 newsrooms would've been stunned.
And that 10 O'Clock show would've looked-different-than -- and seemed a-step-ahead-of -- the other 3 shows.
Other-3-stations: Don't worry. It won't happen. Business-as-usual. Blah blah blah.
Holland...you are absolutely PART right. The top of the hour is facts. From 5 out you suggest it should be about feelings.
God, I think that is probably even worse.
We tell aspiring TV journalists and those in the business for any length of time that the Eyewitness News format is sucessful because it uses people to tell us what they feel. But the story doesn't hang off feelings, it hangs off the rreporter who provides facts.
The talk show host is the reporter. The callers are the individuals who provide the bites we use in the package. The ones who provide "feelings."
Unfortuantely the talk show host has no substance. All THEY have is feelings. So now we have one guy with feelings and a bunch of callers with feelings.
Makes for a whol lotta feeliings and no substance.
That is why radio TSL is aiming for the dumper. All feelings, no substance.
As for the assignment desks that waited until Wednesday to staff out the travel story...that is what happens when the assignment desk and most of the staff have worked the business collectively for less time then the staff at the local golden arches.
You'll get better reporting and better newscasts when management stops focusing on the bottom line and starts focusing on quality.
A good quality newscast always wins the time slot.
5 out you suggest it should be about feelings.God, I think that is probably even worse.
We tell aspiring TV journalists and those in the business for any length of time that the Eyewitness News format is sucessful because it uses people to tell us what they feel. But the story doesn't hang off feelings, it hangs off the rreporter who provides facts.
The talk show host is the reporter. The callers are the individuals who provide the bites we use in the package. The ones who provide "feelings."
Unfortuantely the talk show host has no substance. All THEY have is feelings. So now we have one guy with feelings and a bunch of callers with feelings.
Makes for a whol lotta feeliings and no substance.
That is why radio TSL is aiming for the dumper. All feelings, no substance.
As for the assignment desks that waited until Wednesday to staff out the travel story...that is what happens when the assignment desk and most of the staff have worked the business collectively for less time then the staff at the local golden arches.
You'll get better reporting and better newscasts when management stops focusing on the bottom line and starts focusing on quality.
A good quality newscast always wins the time slot.
It's hard to cite someone currently working in the biz who is "doing it right," because the guys (and gals - hi Roberta) who know how to do it right are not getting the work.
Why? Because given today's follow-the-leader mentality (and this doesn't even take into account the economic downturn), the suits are playing it safe.
Ergo, Rush and his ten thousand clones...
Why? Because given today's follow-the-leader mentality (and this doesn't even take into account the economic downturn), the suits are playing it safe.
Ergo, Rush and his ten thousand clones...
D
DaleGriffin
Guest
No the host is not a reporter. He is an opinionated talk show host. He is giving you his opinion on the facts and calling BS where he sees fit.
I like what Holland is saying, but maybe that is because that is how I do my show. Lots of callers and talking about what they think as well as what I think.
The bottom line is what matters. This is a BUSINESS.
Source? News radio is out, talk radio is in. In=profitable.
Too bad Dale misses the point....his opinion is irrrelevant. So too is mine. what matters is that we are failing to provide needed news and information to listeners and the general public.
Some try to pass off their opinion as fact. Perfect example would be Hannity who has never met a fact he didn't twist and mangle.
Dale...once again you miss the point: if you put out a quality product you always make more money in the end than if you put out a shoddy one. It may take longer, but you always make more money.
As for newsradio being "out"...you better talk to the nice folks in the major markets. They seem to be doing quite well. Smaller markets don't need/can't sustain all news operations because they don't have enough news to hold the programming together.
But please keep trying.
Some try to pass off their opinion as fact. Perfect example would be Hannity who has never met a fact he didn't twist and mangle.
Dale...once again you miss the point: if you put out a quality product you always make more money in the end than if you put out a shoddy one. It may take longer, but you always make more money.
As for newsradio being "out"...you better talk to the nice folks in the major markets. They seem to be doing quite well. Smaller markets don't need/can't sustain all news operations because they don't have enough news to hold the programming together.
But please keep trying.
Actually what Holland Cooke is suggesting is already on the air, every weekday afternoon at 2pm (eastern) on NPR. The show is called Talk of the Nation. They have excellent guests, with a host who has done his homework studing the issue and intelligent callers who call in to ask questions or offer opinions to the guests.
D
DaleGriffin
Guest
Thanks for proving my point, you don't llike talk radio because you don't like the slant of the most successful hosts. Your Hannity Derangement Syndrome has appeared again. Talk show hosts are dealing in opinion and perspective not facts.justareporter said:
Sure they are doing fine in the major markets but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the format in general. In those same major markets you N/T stations that are doing quite well as well that doesn't really pove your point.
I do like how you ignored my direct response to you earlier asking for a source and then told me to "try again."
STILL the top thread on the News/Talk board...thanks to YOU...
...not me.
You, "the caller," keep this "show" on top.
We'd like to think so, but not always.
Bring this up with a TV GM, and you'll get the speec h about value-of-the-network's-10PM ET-hour-as-lead-in for the late news.
And I'll defer to any Noo Yawkers here who can correct any-of-the-following-details I may be remembering incorrectly: When CapCities bought ABC (1988?), WABC-TV's news staff was cut from 150 to 75, but the early show ratings didn't flinch...because they still had Oprah.
Am I remembering that right?
Increasingly, Public Radio IS AN ISSUE.
Admittedly anecdotal, but NOT atypical:
Last night at dinner, I met someone whom I'd profile as direct retail advertisers' DREAM demographic.
I asked her to "name your car radio buttons" [what stations have you pre-set?]
As listeners do, she answered NUMBERS (not call letters, as people-who-work-in-radio would do).
The first three were below FM92.
More "statistical:" I expect to get an-earful-more on this next week at Arbitron's annual Consultant Fly-In conference. Last year there, PPM data demonstrated what's-been-suggested here, listeners weary of commercial radio's same-old-same-old, lack-of-local-content, and schlock, are, increasingly shifting TSL to Public Radio.
...not me.
You, "the caller," keep this "show" on top.
justareporter said:
We'd like to think so, but not always.
Bring this up with a TV GM, and you'll get the speec h about value-of-the-network's-10PM ET-hour-as-lead-in for the late news.
And I'll defer to any Noo Yawkers here who can correct any-of-the-following-details I may be remembering incorrectly: When CapCities bought ABC (1988?), WABC-TV's news staff was cut from 150 to 75, but the early show ratings didn't flinch...because they still had Oprah.
Am I remembering that right?
MikefromDelaware said:
Increasingly, Public Radio IS AN ISSUE.
Admittedly anecdotal, but NOT atypical:
Last night at dinner, I met someone whom I'd profile as direct retail advertisers' DREAM demographic.
I asked her to "name your car radio buttons" [what stations have you pre-set?]
As listeners do, she answered NUMBERS (not call letters, as people-who-work-in-radio would do).
The first three were below FM92.
More "statistical:" I expect to get an-earful-more on this next week at Arbitron's annual Consultant Fly-In conference. Last year there, PPM data demonstrated what's-been-suggested here, listeners weary of commercial radio's same-old-same-old, lack-of-local-content, and schlock, are, increasingly shifting TSL to Public Radio.
Sorry this printed twice, the blue part below is the added info.
Increasingly, Public Radio IS AN ISSUE.
Admittedly anecdotal, but NOT atypical:
Last night at dinner, I met someone whom I'd profile as direct retail advertisers' DREAM demographic.
I asked her to "name your car radio buttons" [what stations have you pre-set?]
As listeners do, she answered NUMBERS (not call letters, as people-who-work-in-radio would do).
The first three were below FM92.
More "statistical:" I expect to get an-earful-more on this next week at Arbitron's annual Consultant Fly-In conference. Last year there, PPM data demonstrated what's-been-suggested here, listeners weary of commercial radio's same-old-same-old, lack-of-local-content, and schlock, are, increasingly shifting TSL to Public Radio.
Holland makes a good point. I just looked at RI's ratings info for Philadelphia's PPM's and the NPR station (WHYY-FM) is less than 2 shares lower than the Beck/Rush/Hannity Big Talker (WPHT). Unfortunately, the commercial newstalkers have become either right wing cheer leaders or left wing cheer leaders and may not the facts get in the way.
I've listened to both NPR and the national talkers that are available to me in both Philly and Wilmington. NPR's shows are far more balanced giving better more indepth coverage to both sides. Surprisingly, NPR has given some great interviews to Republicans and Conservatives that were not slanted, just as they did with Democrats and Liberals. The commerical networks, cable TV networks, and the syndicated talkers are in the tank for one side or the other as this last long and drawn out election process demonstrated. Frankly, the one place I found that had good coverage of both sides was NPR and on TV PBS. So as the public gets even more disgusted with the biased coverage of both commerical radio / TV it stands to reason that NPR / PBS may have found themselves a niche that could make them the networks of choice for real news coverage, and quality talk shows, and documentaries, etc.
As to what buttons are set on my car radio: FM 89.5 WOSL - Salisbury(NPR classical), 89.9 WOEL - Elkton, MD, (religious), 90.1 WRTI Philly (NPR Classical / Jazz), 90.9 WHYY - Philly (NPR news/info), 91.3 WVUD Newark, DE (U of Del), 94.5 WDAC - Lancaster (religious), 94.7 WDSD Dover, DE (country), 95.7 (Ben FM - Philly), 96.1 WSOX - Lancaster (AC pop gold), 103.7 WXCY - Havre de Grace, MD (country), 106.9 WKDN - Camden, NJ (religious), 107.7 - WRTI's Wilmington translator, NPR classical /jazz Temple Univ.
AM:560 WFIL - Philly religious, 740 WVCH - Chester, PA religious, 950 ESPN Philly, 1150 WDEL- Wilmington news/talk all local talk shows daytime (CBS Radio news and programs), 1290 WWTX - Wilmington sports talk, 1450 WILM - Wilmington newstalk Rush/Hannity (Fox Radio news)
Holland, it will be interesting to hear what you learn at the upcoming conference you're going to.
Increasingly, Public Radio IS AN ISSUE.
Admittedly anecdotal, but NOT atypical:
Last night at dinner, I met someone whom I'd profile as direct retail advertisers' DREAM demographic.
I asked her to "name your car radio buttons" [what stations have you pre-set?]
As listeners do, she answered NUMBERS (not call letters, as people-who-work-in-radio would do).
The first three were below FM92.
More "statistical:" I expect to get an-earful-more on this next week at Arbitron's annual Consultant Fly-In conference. Last year there, PPM data demonstrated what's-been-suggested here, listeners weary of commercial radio's same-old-same-old, lack-of-local-content, and schlock, are, increasingly shifting TSL to Public Radio.
Holland makes a good point. I just looked at RI's ratings info for Philadelphia's PPM's and the NPR station (WHYY-FM) is less than 2 shares lower than the Beck/Rush/Hannity Big Talker (WPHT). Unfortunately, the commercial newstalkers have become either right wing cheer leaders or left wing cheer leaders and may not the facts get in the way.
I've listened to both NPR and the national talkers that are available to me in both Philly and Wilmington. NPR's shows are far more balanced giving better more indepth coverage to both sides. Surprisingly, NPR has given some great interviews to Republicans and Conservatives that were not slanted, just as they did with Democrats and Liberals. The commerical networks, cable TV networks, and the syndicated talkers are in the tank for one side or the other as this last long and drawn out election process demonstrated. Frankly, the one place I found that had good coverage of both sides was NPR and on TV PBS. So as the public gets even more disgusted with the biased coverage of both commerical radio / TV it stands to reason that NPR / PBS may have found themselves a niche that could make them the networks of choice for real news coverage, and quality talk shows, and documentaries, etc.
As to what buttons are set on my car radio: FM 89.5 WOSL - Salisbury(NPR classical), 89.9 WOEL - Elkton, MD, (religious), 90.1 WRTI Philly (NPR Classical / Jazz), 90.9 WHYY - Philly (NPR news/info), 91.3 WVUD Newark, DE (U of Del), 94.5 WDAC - Lancaster (religious), 94.7 WDSD Dover, DE (country), 95.7 (Ben FM - Philly), 96.1 WSOX - Lancaster (AC pop gold), 103.7 WXCY - Havre de Grace, MD (country), 106.9 WKDN - Camden, NJ (religious), 107.7 - WRTI's Wilmington translator, NPR classical /jazz Temple Univ.
AM:560 WFIL - Philly religious, 740 WVCH - Chester, PA religious, 950 ESPN Philly, 1150 WDEL- Wilmington news/talk all local talk shows daytime (CBS Radio news and programs), 1290 WWTX - Wilmington sports talk, 1450 WILM - Wilmington newstalk Rush/Hannity (Fox Radio news)
Holland, it will be interesting to hear what you learn at the upcoming conference you're going to.
- Status