REAL dangerous thinking: “Listeners tune-in to hear compelling hosts.”

[Holland Cooke]

"DON'T ENCOURAGE HIM!"

There is an advantage to all the postings on Radio-Info: it's easy to read past un-interesting posts. It's really hard to listen past un-interesting callers. You HAVE to listen in real time.

No!
People DON'T have to listen in real-time.
Bore 'em, they're off-like-a-prom-dress.
Thus the importance of topic and technique AND good screening.

YOUR underlying point is MINE: People (the folks we used to call "listeners") expect to interact with their media.

Holland, your video joke made me chuckle. ;D

"DON'T ENCOURAGE HIM!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bobc0_8ok

 

[Holland Cooke]

OOPS. I forgot to ask...

See also the-very-last-item on page 7 of that download, the topic of what-became-a-VERY-caller-driven hour of WBEN (AM), Buffalo, consistently its market's #1 station P12+.

The subject being discussed on that show (rape) is one that tends to draw out "riveting" stories. I don't believe that is a good example for that reason. Most subjects will not elicit such interesting responses. Also, what I have heard of WBEN/Buffalo, they are live and local from dawn through late evening (with the exception of Limbaugh), but with very strong personalities around the clock. Not exactly a "caller-driven" programming day.

So much for the example on page 7.

I forgot to ask: Could you conscience one-of-WBEN's-local-hosts working-a-topic along-the-lines-of the example on page 4?

Or do you reject THE ENTIRE THESIS outlined, charts-and-all, on page 4?

"HOW DO *YOU* FEEL ABOUT THIS? ONE...EIGHT HUNDRED..."

Aloha from Providence airport,
HC
www.HollandCooke.com
www.AndYouCanQuoteMe.com

 

[cm454]

Re: OOPS. I forgot to ask...

I don't often say this, Holland, but this is one of those rare occasions where this just needs to be said:

You're thinkinng too much.

 

[bigtalkradiofan]

Re: "We're Number ONE!"

My re-formulation of HC's ideas:

I think HC would be on more solid ground if he made a two-level assertion...

Level #1 - “Listeners tune-in to hear compelling hosts.” As I noted below, listeners still tune in to hear what entertainers and opinion-leaders have to say on a topic.

Level #2 - But then after hearing what Rush/Sean/Cowherd/Rome have to say on a topic - then "Listeners want to blog, text on cell phones, go on internet message boards, and write comments in facebook" about what the compelling hosts had to say - did they agree, where was the host right or wrong, what they would have said, what did they fail to mention, etc, etc, etc.

Respectfully:

The notion others cling-to here that people will FIRST stop-what-they're-doing-so-we-can-tell-them-how-WE-feel...THEN interact-with-each-other-about-it is as antique as it is arrogant.

More-gently: You're still bouncing-around the inside-the-box echo chamber.

NOTHING PERSONAL. This is an industry-wide myopia. Yesterday or today, one of the trades was quoting some dang consultant's surmise about WHICH-station-that-went-all-Christmas-too-early wins. Has our industry become THIS limited and self-centered, and out-of-synch with "real people?"

As I go back and re-read through how this thread evolved...

I can't help but think this thread is evolving exactly as my re-formulation of HC's idea would predict (if you do a search and replace - replacing "listeners" with "posters"):

Level #1 - “(Posters) tune-in to hear compelling hosts.” - As a well-known and unabashed radio consultant, HC is an industry opinion-leader who comes on here with his latest recommendations for station programmers.

Unlike HC's model would predict, us posters all took the time read what HC had to say on the topic and we digested it.

Level #2 - But then after hearing what HC has to say the a topic - then "(posters) wanted to discuss on the forum/internet message boards" about what the compelling hosts had to say - did they agree, where was the host right or wrong, what they would have said, what did they fail to mention, etc, etc, etc.

Seems to me like the evolution of this thread, conflicts with HC's own model, and provides yet another example of how crucial the entertainer or opinion-leader is to this process.

Unlike HC's model would predict, us posters all took the time read what HC had to say on the topic and we digested it.

I suspect you mean "we posters."

And it IS you who are keeping this thread on-TOP-of the News/Talk board.

I was thinking of having some of those big foam index-finger-things made.
Those we're-number-one things you see kids fit-over-their-hands and wave at games?
'Problem is: How would I get 'em to you?

So, instead, using-the-power-of-radio...imagine...

Cue harp swirl.
Cue Gary Glitter, "Rock & Roll, Part II."
HC on arena PA, ambient background:
"YOU! YOU! YOU-THE-POSTERS...NOT ME...MADE THIS THREAD NUMBER ONE!"
"YOU'RE SPENDING MORE TIME ON JUST-THIS-THREAD THAN ALL-THE-TIME-YOU'VE-EVER-SPENT-ON RUSH LIMBAUGH'S SITE, RIGHT???"
SFX: crowd roars.
Cue harp swirl.

When we hit post #700, let's all do the human wave.

Boy, you are good at ducking a question, and repeating ad naseum the same re-tread talking points.

1.) HC's "Push" - You still can't face the fact that you are "push"ing the "caller-centered" focus on us - no different than how most talk show hosts do on their shows today.

You still haven't addressed my "Level #1" assertion above - that this thread wouldn't have started, and been continued on each day, without you - a well-known and unabashed industry opinion-leader - starting the thread and keeping it going with your "push"ing this train of thought.

Without HC's "push" of "caller-centered" talk radio - there's little to no debate in this thread.

HC is doing on here, exactly what he says, people don't want anymore. Yet he cites this thread somehow as an example that he is right - when is doing the exact opposite of what he proposes.

Therefore, HC this thread is an example that talk radio's current format works just fine. The entertainer or opinion-leader gives his/her opinion first, and then gets feedback from listeners.

2.) There's a difference between smart phones and talk radio.

Just because people are increasingly using smart phones - doesn't mean that the talk radio format is wrong - it is a different medium.

Talk radio will learn to utilize and capitalize on the increasing use of smart phones - but I don't see a change in the talk radio format because of it.

3.) Lack of concrete examples of where this is already working.

WBEN

Any others?

As a statistics professor will tell you that just one example - is not a trend of anything.

 

[cm454]

Re: "We're Number ONE!"

3.) Lack of concrete examples of where this is already working.

WBEN

Any others?

As a statistics professor will tell you that just one example - is not a trend of anything.

And WBEN is not even a good example. They have several local hosts from midday through evening---all of which, whenever I've listened--do exactly what Holland is preaching against!

He tuned in for an hour or so, heard riveting stories of women who experienced rape, and deduced that at that station, callers are the focal point of, and carry the load of, the whole station--which he wants you to believe, is why they are consistantly #1.

Completely specious at best. From what I have heard, they use callers as a tool, just like other successful talk stations.

WBEN/Buffalo is successful BECAUSE they have strong local personalities with varied opinions HOSTING the shows they have on air.

THAT, by the way, is what the lesson really should be for all the corporate beancounters who are ruining this business.

 

[GeneSavage]

Holland,

That second video would have been really funny...

...if I hadn't just played your 1st video for my mother, who laughed so hard that I played the 2nd video for her, sight unseen...

:-[

 

[Holland Cooke]

Human wave AGAIN at #800!

I'm trying to picture you soreheads at a convention.

During a panel discussion, you're sitting-in-the-back-row, in disguise, angry because others-in-the-room are talking shop?

You're thinkinng too much.

THERE'S someone who doesn't have to make-a-payroll, or service station debt!

Posting here is a-consequence-free process, unlike running a business, keeping-folks-listening, keeping-staff-on-the-job and keeping-advertisers-happy.

To the-more-genuinely-curious who Emailed questions for Arbitron prez Steve Morris: I will Email you his replies.

Good morning from Washington,
HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[Holland Cooke]

I REALLY wish you could be here for this.

Good morning from Maryland, where today is day #2-of-2 of Arbitron's annual Consultant Fly-In conference.

I really, really wish you could be here for this. Although I'm hell-bent on organizing my notes, I cannot begin to convey the-level-of-detail being shared with us here. But that's just counting-the-peanuts.

As for the elephant:
Last night, Arbitron President Steve Morris took us all to dinner.
"Steve Morris Unplugged," they called it.
A very candid, frank dialogue about the-dizzying-pace-of-change.
(The room, mostly-full-of-vendors, could relate.)
But I really, really wished that the-community-of-posters-here could've been part of that conversation.
Our industry is very challenged right now.

Today, I'm introducing a session about what-to-expect-from the Portable People Meter.
The centerpiece is a DVD of "60 Minutes" style interviews with 3 Philadelphia PDs.
Philly was the first market "to go currency" with PPM.
These PDs share how-life-changes when audience measurement shifts from estimates to passive actual.

OK, data, data, data.
But here, in-the-words-of WXTU PD Bob McKay, is The Bottom Line:
“People don’t listen to the radio like you think they do.”

KYW's Steve Butler comments that -- for all the changes metered measurement brings -- success is still about "making the station useful."

Certainly this pertains to the provocative topic that tee'd-up this particular thread.
But it's The Big Idea that smart programmers and on-air talent have always confronted.

HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[bigtalkradiofan]

Re: "We're Number ONE!"

Boy, you are good at ducking a question, and repeating ad naseum the same re-tread talking points.

1.) HC's "Push" - You still can't face the fact that you are "push"ing the "caller-centered" focus on us - no different than how most talk show hosts do on their shows today.

You still haven't addressed my "Level #1" assertion above - that this thread wouldn't have started, and been continued on each day, without you - a well-known and unabashed industry opinion-leader - starting the thread and keeping it going with your "push"ing this train of thought.

Without HC's "push" of "caller-centered" talk radio - there's little to no debate in this thread.

HC is doing on here, exactly what he says, people don't want anymore. Yet he cites this thread somehow as an example that he is right - when is doing the exact opposite of what he proposes.

Therefore, HC this thread is an example that talk radio's current format works just fine. The entertainer or opinion-leader gives his/her opinion first, and then gets feedback from listeners.

2.) There's a difference between smart phones and talk radio.

Just because people are increasingly using smart phones - doesn't mean that the talk radio format is wrong - it is a different medium.

Talk radio will learn to utilize and capitalize on the increasing use of smart phones - but I don't see a change in the talk radio format because of it.

3.) Lack of concrete examples of where this is already working.

WBEN

Any others?

As a statistics professor will tell you that just one example - is not a trend of anything.

HC,

I have yet to see your reply - to the 3 points listed in my last post (quoted above)?

Don't tell me I stumped a radio consultant.

Nor have we seen from you:

* A List of Current Examples - A listing of shows and stations where this "caller-centered" format is currently drawing higher ratings.

* My Reply - Anecdotal stories about one show on one day aren't nearly good enough - we want to see a concrete list of current examples where this "caller-centered" model is working.

And please don't duck (avoid) the question again by resorting to these lame excuses yet again:

1.) That I Don't Understand the "Caller-Centered" Concept - That I just don't get it, that I'm stuck in an outdated mindset of the current industry, etc.

* My Reply - Because I understand the concept extremely well. We just disagree that it is as effective as you contend that it is.

2.) That this thread is "Poster-Centered" - That this thread somehow (mistakenly) demonstrates your point.

* My Reply - As I noted in Point #1 of my quote above, this thread demonstrates the current "host-centered" and "host-push" format is working quite well; because it was started and continues to be stoked by you, a well-known industry opinion-leader. Without your "push" of "caller-centered" talk radio - there's little to no debate in this thread. You are doing on here, exactly what you say, people don't want anymore in talk radio.

3.) Smart Phones increasing usage

* My Reply - Smart phones are a different medium. What works for TV, is different than what works for newspapers, which is different than what works for radio, which is different for what works for the internet, websites, blogs, etc. Talk radio will learn to utilize and capitalize on the increasing use of smart phones - but doesn't mean that the current talk radio format is wrong - it is a different medium.

Your thoughts?

 

[gr8oldies]

Weve already had the biggest phone oriented change to talk radio with the near universal use of cellphones. We went from a caller bank of stay at home moms and retirees to mobile professionals

 

[Holland Cooke]

Yo from Balto'

As Tony Orlando sang, "I'm comin' home, I've done my time..."
Hello from BWI Airport, en route home after the Arbitron Consultant Fly-In.
Gotta type fast...

HC, I have yet to see your reply - to the 3 points listed in my last post (quoted above)?

I could swear I addressed this several pages back.
Search for the word "respectfully," which I recall using, because I was trying to respond as-specifically-as-I-was.
I'd go back and find the specific post, but Southwest is about to herd us on-board...

If you STILL feel (a) insufficiently-responded-to, and/or (b) that I'm "ducking" you, CALL ME: 401-330-6868. Best time: Saturday midday.

You have my advance permission to record and/or transcribe our conversation and post it here if you feel the need to bring-this-to-closure.

Why-this-is-worth one-on-one time: to avoid boring #2 and #3 below.

There seem to be three categories of responses-to-what-I-suggested on the first post pages ago:
1. responses like yours, which suggest I'm UNDER-explaining what-I'm-explaining;
2. responses which suggest I'm OVER-explaining, by repetition, what-I'm-explaining;
3. concurring observations, such as...

Weve already had the biggest phone oriented change to talk radio with the near universal use of cellphones. We went from a caller bank of stay at home moms and retirees to mobile professionals

YAH-mon.

Those "stay-at-home moms" not only control VAST purchasing power, but they also appreciate someone-to-talk-to (who's older than the munchkin she's feeding strained carrots to).

Those "retirees" are among Talk Radio's heaviest-AQH contributors.

Even-more-desirable-to both radio stations and their advertisers are mobile moms, hitherto characterized variously as "soccer moms," "the real-life Marge Simpson," etc. Hers is the car (SUV or minivan) that local retailers want MOST to see pull-into-the-parking-lot. Every time she stops that radio-on-wheels, she spends money. Engage HER, and life is good. Bore her with blah blah blah at your own peril.

"Mobile professionals?" KA-CHING. Only Classical has better Qualitative than News/Talk, and there's more News/Talk than Classical cume.

One of radio's biggest advantages has always been proximity-to-the-cash-register. Hopefully, few people are reading the newspaper, watching television, reading direct mail, or thumbing through the Yellow Pages while they drive. But customers can listen until they pull into that retailer's parking lot.

That thing we used to call "a cell phone" is "the new transistor radio."
Smart stations are closing the loop.

Gotta dash...
HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND,
HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[MikefromDelaware]

In Delaware the thre news/talkers - Wilmington's WDEL and WILM as well as Dover's WDOV all have news /weather/ listen live, etc available online.

WDEL has gone further and offers a video newscast as their radio reporters no longer use a cassette recorder, but take a video recorder to cover their news-stories. They take the audio for radio and use both audio and video for their online video newscast (remember that Wilmington's only local TV newscast is on PBS WHYY-TV 12 at 5:30pm - all other TV news comes from Philly's TV stations where Delaware news takes a back seat meaning mostly non-existant unless someone dies).

WDEL also offers text alerts to your cell phone for weather/traffic/ breaking news/ school closings ( I assume there's a fee for this service). It would be interesting to find out how many people subscribe to WDEL's text alert program.

 

[Holland Cooke]

"Don't tell me I stumped a radio consultant."

Why not?

Hello from The Ocean State, at-the-other-end-of that PACKED flight.
Now where were we?

...Lack of concrete examples of where this is already working...WBEN...any others?

Oh yeah...

HOW surprised will I be when y'all diss-or-disqualify ANY example I offer as-quickly-as-you-quacked-WBEN?
Not very.

So, in-lieu-of-a-list, I'll give ya one more, then I'll give-it-up.
(Then, PLEASE DO deem me "stumped" if that'll cheer you up even just a little.)

I continue to be impressed by Michelle Jerson, evening host on super-successful New Jersey 101.5.
You can hear her online Monday-through-Thursday nights on the station's site.

Michelle, formerly of Howard Stern's ensemble, personifies Talk Radio's missing person, the alternative-to -- and, in-the-following-ways -- the-opposite-of Rush Limbaugh:
* a-she-not-a-he,
* younger-than-older,
* cheerful-not-angry,
* dialogue-not-monologue,
* apolitical (like the rest of this conspicuously successful station).

No wonder her phones are lit-up non-stop.

What I think she does especially well:
* pick often-surprising, not-just-same-old-same-old, topics;
* BEGIN by succinctly stating whassup this hour, a question that includes “YOU” and/or “YOUR;"
* then, just-as-quickly seed callers with her take on the topic, often offered in-the-context-of a personal anecdote;
* get quickly to the phone;
* re-set frequently, so tune-ins are instantly up-to-speed;
* recap caller quips, which subsequent callers often allude to.

Recently, I've heard her work these topics, which I have cited -- though not necessarily recommended -- to hosts I coach:

• “SHOULD YOUR SPOUSE HAVE YOUR EMAIL PASSWORD?"
(She thought it's OK not to. 'Doesn't mean you're hiding anything. "You're still entitled to your privacy.")

• “CAN YOU BE FRIENDS WITH AN EX?"
(She offered that, "if both parties are 'over' one another, why not?")

• “CAN YOU BE IN LOVE WITH TWO PEOPLE AT ONCE?”

• “WOULD YOU DATE SOMEONE WHO IS SEPARATED?"
(Her position: Wait until the divorce is final.)

Not your act?
Not El Rushbo's either.
Which doesn't make you or him wrong.
Or me.

But even if you-the-host wouldn’t feel in-character WORKING these topics, can you imagine HEARING them?
There’s darn little that radio can do to keep-someone-in-the-car-with-the-key-on-Accessories, but these sure would.

No, not everyone. But, as Bill O'Reilly exits his Quixotic head-to-head against Maha Rushie, MIGHT more variety, and interactivity, offer listeners more?

NOW-willing-to-be-deemed "stumped," CHEERFULLY,


HC

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Holland, were most of Michelle Jerson's callers female? Those topics, my guess, would probably skew to a more female audience, which should be a good thing as most sponsors hope to reach female listeners, the one's who make most of the purchasing decisions? So even though most of us here (mostly males) probably would not see those topics as compelling radio, the female audience would. Deliah's show talks about that sort of stuff too, and she's very successful nationally, and I'd guess again that her main audience is females. On TV, Oprah does the same sort of thing, and again, she appeals to mostly women and is very successful.

That doesn't mean that there can't be local talkers who have compelling topics aimed at men (sports talk would be one example), but the example Holland sighted probably does aim for women. Thoughts?

 

[Holland Cooke]

were most of Michelle Jerson's callers female?

I owe "paying customers" enough listen-time that my "recreational" listen-time is such that I only get to hear Michelle occasionally. But what-I'm-struck-by when I do get to listen-in is how MEN line-up to weigh-in-on relationship-type topics she favors. I'm as surprised as you seem to be by this...and ENCOURAGED.

I share your surmise of Delilah's touchier-feelier approach, which Delilah executes VERY effectively.
Ditto for John Tesh, whom women all-seem-to-want-to-hug.
Delilah and Tesh TARGET women, a la Oprah, as you point out.

What-I-think-you'll-notice in Michelle's approach is a "bigger tent" pitch.
If you get a chance to stream-in, I suspect that, on-any-given-night, you'll hear more men than you might expect from these topics.

'Point being: topic and technique.
Topics aren't vague and are provocative.
And this particular host makes herself approachable and engaging.

Sure, there's room for discussion of public policy (though confining-the-conversation-to THE-POLITICS-OF-policy under-exploits the conversation.) What's wearying about Talk Radio business-as-usual is the I-talk-you-listen-and-because-you-disagree-with-me-you're-a-bad-person shtick. Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah.

In diary markets, ratings are still "a memory test."
In PPM markets, awareness drives use.

Good morning from Block Island,
HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[MikefromDelaware]

What's wearying about Talk Radio business-as-usual is the I-talk-you-listen-and-because-you-disagree-with-me-you're-a-bad-person shtick.

Holland, I'm in dangerous territory here, as this is the third time in this thread I've had to agree with you, but " da*n the torpedos ", you hit the nail on the head. What you described above is what drives me to tune in to NPR rather than Rush/Hannity, Air America, etc for talk radio. I'm sure you noticed from my earlier posting on this thread that a major part of my car's FM radio buttons are set below 92.1. color]

 

[Holland Cooke]

Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah.

What you described above is what drives me to tune in to NPR rather than Rush/Hannity, Air America, etc for talk radio.

You're not alone.
"Real people" [who don't work in radio] are wandering-off to Public Radio too.

Don't get me wrong.
I appreciate Rush and Sean.
They're "source material" that helps-me-make-a-living, like Barry Manilow and The Eagles did in the 70s.

But the-point-I-set-to-make in launching this thread was that "Talk" = two-way radio; and not-just-about one-side of one topic.

HC

PS: RIP Mike Kavanagh/WSB, who's being remembered on the Atlanta boards.
GOOD guy, whom I worked with 100 years ago @ WHYN/Springfield.

 

[del_griffith]

Holland: Are you seeing a serious trend from commecial talk radio toward NPR stations? If so, is it that the perceptions that are driving the migration?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Holland: Are you seeing a serious trend from commecial talk radio toward NPR stations? If so, is it that the perceptions that are driving the migration?

How about hosts and news-writers that put stuff on the air that indicates they think the listener has an I.Q. somewhere north of room termperature. :-\

 

[Holland Cooke]

recent NPR gains

Holland: Are you seeing a serious trend from commecial talk radio toward NPR stations? If so, is it that the perceptions that are driving the migration?

Measurably, Public Radio's been on-the-rise for several years now.
No mystery why, with commercial radio automating/syndicating/homogenizing/voicetracking/otherwise-dumbing-down.
In many markets, there's more local programming on Public Radio.
And no 20-minutes-an-hour of blah-blah-blah commercial copy.
Sure, Public Radio programming can sound "decaffeinated," vs. well-done commercial radio.
But many listeners find that appealing. Public Radio isn't HOLLERING-AT listeners.
The show I keep hearing Public Listeners rave about is "Wait, Wait! Don't Tell Me!"