Rich Men North of Richmond #1

[michael hagerty]

A few years ago I posted a comment on my Facebook page that said something like "I long for a time where the facts would shape people's political stances, rather than their politics determining what they'll accept to be true". What stunned me a bit was that I have friends on both ends of the political spectrum and many of them from both sides "liked" my post, and then commented that they were certain I must be commenting about the other side politically from them. In other words, I posted a pretty general comment, and those on both sides of the political aisle were certain it was aimed at "the other guy" and neither saw themselves or their political group as being included at all.

The real people on both sides of the political spectrum in the U.S. want the same basic stuff---good jobs, good pay, safe schools for their children, a government responsive to their concerns.

Part of what makes this moment in time so perilous is that a significant minority (a quarter to a third) believe so firmly that their side has the correct answer that they are okay with criminal acts or the use of force to stay in power.

And they choose to blame people who don't look, love or worship like them for what's wrong, rather than the politicians they're willing to go to jail for (who aren't wholly responsible for the problems---so are the politicians they oppose).

So, their solution to those societal ills is to keep voting for the same people, but to suppress the rights of the citizens they blame, who tend to vote against the people who want to suppress their rights. And the politicians angling for those votes are more than willing to co-opt a song like "Rich Men North of Richmond" to signal that they understand the common person.

 

[tbolt909]

It's essentially a novelty record. It's unlikely he'll have a follow-up hit (most new artists don't). But he'll be in the books for being as big this summer in Country radio as a bona-fide star, Jason Aldean, was, with another song that was controversial politically.

The song is really just more whining from a White dude. The part about "obese people on welfare buying Fudge Rounds" is absurd. Americans have no idea what REAL poverty looks like in many other countries. There are thousands of jobs available that go unfilled because Americans won't take them, but immigrants would gladly do. As for corruption, rich and poor both are guilty. Sure some try to cheat the welfare system. That's small potatoes compared to the fleecing that corporations get away with.

It's amusing that this guy has now ripped Republicans for being clueless. The disconnect is nothing new. The upper one percent have always said "Let Them Eat Cake"...

 

[tbolt909]

Another racially motivated mass shooting happened in Jacksonville today.

Radio plays trite songs like "Try That In A Small Town" and the "Richmond" song discussed here. It's unfortunate that nobody plays the recent Dave Matthews track "MADMAN'S EYES" which eloquently covers the gun crisis in America. It would be nice if Radio offered some quality to the masses instead of drivel on a regular basis...

 

[davideduardo]

Another racially motivated mass shooting happened in Jacksonville today.

Radio plays trite songs like "Try That In A Small Town" and the "Richmond" song discussed here. It's unfortunate that nobody plays the recent Dave Matthews track "MADMAN'S EYES" which eloquently covers the gun crisis in America.

Where much of my family lives, Ecuador, shootings by drug gangs have become so numerous and so many innocent bystanders have been killed that the president recommended that law-abiding citizens get guns and "shoot on sight if threatened". The country had very strict gun laws, and the president overrode them to allow those who were not cartel members to have a weapon for self defense.

The cartel soldiers did not seem to respect Ecuador's gun laws, and attempts to stop them were met with massacres.

 

[davideduardo]

The song is really just more whining from a White dude. The part about "obese people on welfare buying Fudge Rounds" is absurd. Americans have no idea what REAL poverty looks like in many other countries.

Name the "poor" countries you have lived extensively in.

There are thousands of jobs available that go unfilled because Americans won't take them

In many cases, because they can make more with no work through various government programs.

, but immigrants would gladly do.

Because our minimum wage is sometimes 10 to 20 times that of some of the nations immigrants are coming from.

As for corruption, rich and poor both are guilty. Sure some try to cheat the welfare system. That's small potatoes compared to the fleecing that corporations get away with.

Such as?

It's amusing that this guy has now ripped Republicans for being clueless. The disconnect is nothing new. The upper one percent have always said "Let Them Eat Cake"...

That is a hackneyed untruth. Look at the billions everyone from Soros to Gates have donated to charities.

 

[TheBigA]

In many cases, because they can make more with no work through various government programs.

Over the years those government programs have had limitations put on them so the benefits are connected to some form of work. I'm not aware of any govt program that pays more than minimum wage. Liberals would like to raise the minimum wage but can't get the 60% in the Senate.

That is a hackneyed untruth. Look at the billions everyone from Soros to Gates have donated to charities.

Citizens United is a conservative group that made it all possible. Liberals would gladly put limits on political charities, but they don't have the votes to get it done. So they simply do what the law allows.

 

[davideduardo]

Over the years those government programs have had limitations put on them so the benefits are connected to some form of work. I'm not aware of any govt program that pays more than minimum wage. Liberals would like to raise the minimum wage but can't get the 60% in the Senate.

If you add in benefits ranging from (depending on one's residence location) free tablets, lunch and books for school children to housing subsidies, food stamps, subsidized housing and many other items, we find employees when pushed to work saying, "I can make just as much from benefits and can stay home and not commute".

It's happened to me in various ways in several situations.

 

[TheBigA]

If you add in benefits ranging from (depending on one's residence location) free tablets, lunch and books for school children to housing subsidies, food stamps, subsidized housing and many other items, we find employees when pushed to work saying, "I can make just as much from benefits and can stay home and not commute".

A lot of those programs are based on income, and the income is based on a connection to some form of work. Applicants have to meet with counselors, and they must demonstrate some attempt at getting work. They can't just sit on the couch and eat fudge rounds.

Clinton signs ‘Welfare to Work’ bill, Aug. 22, 1996

Welfare and poverty rates both declined during the late 1990s, leading some observers to view the legislation as a success.

www.politico.com

 

[tbolt909]

Where much of my family lives, Ecuador, shootings by drug gangs have become so numerous and so many innocent bystanders have been killed that the president recommended that law-abiding citizens get guns and "shoot on sight if threatened". The country had very strict gun laws, and the president overrode them to allow those who were not cartel members to have a weapon for self defense.

The cartel soldiers did not seem to respect Ecuador's gun laws, and attempts to stop them were met with massacres.

This whole post is total BS and really doesn't deserve a reply. Your solution= More high powered weapons for everyone. Hallelujah! Let the bullets fly...

 

[davideduardo]

This whole post is total BS and really doesn't deserve a reply.

It is totally factual, based on stories in El Comercio, El Telégrafo, El Universo and several online "webpapers". The statement by Guillermo Lasso was widely published, as was his suspension of gun control laws and regulations.

Reuters says, Ecuador's Lasso authorizes civilian use of guns, citing insecurity

Your solution= More high powered weapons for everyone. Hallelujah! Let the bullets fly...

I said no such thing. I simply gave evidence of a case where the only people with weapons were criminals, you got the highest murder rate in the hemisphere. So far this year, the nation about the size of metro Los Angeles has had 3,500 violent deaths and will likely exceed 8,000 this year.

And nowhere in my response did I use the term "high powered". Don't misquote, and don't claim I said things I did not say in any way or form.

Ecuador's Lasso authorizes civilian use of guns, citing insecurity

Ecuador has authorized the carrying and use of guns by civilians, President Guillermo Lasso said in a televised broadcast, citing rising crime and insecurity in the Andean country.

www.reuters.com

One of the leading candidates for the upcoming presidential election was shot to death a few weeks ago. An aide to another candidate was shot last week.

"In April, (President) Lasso authorized the civilian use of guns to fight rising insecurity. Ecuadoreans have headed to gun ranges to improve their skills in a bid to protect themselves."

 

[TheBigA]

It is totally factual, based on stories in El Comercio, El Telégrafo, El Universo and several online "webpapers". The statement by Guillermo Lasso was widely published, as was his suspension of gun control laws and regulations.

In the meantime, where do they get their guns?

'Weapon of war': the U.S. rifle loved by drug cartels and feared by Mexican police

The flow of high-caliber arms smuggled across the porous U.S. border has alarmed Mexican officials and few weapons are as powerful as the U.S.-made M82 semi-automatic rifle increasingly favored by the powerful drug cartels.

www.reuters.com

 

[Deus Ex Machiato]

Where much of my family lives, Ecuador, shootings by drug gangs have become so numerous and so many innocent bystanders have been killed that the president recommended that law-abiding citizens get guns and "shoot on sight if threatened". The country had very strict gun laws, and the president overrode them to allow those who were not cartel members to have a weapon for self defense.

The cartel soldiers did not seem to respect Ecuador's gun laws, and attempts to stop them were met with massacres.

At the risk of derailing this further, was the rise in cartel violence spurred by the recent imposition of restrictive gun laws? Or were the gun laws always restrictive, and the rise in cartel violence can be attributed to other factors than "the people aren't armed enough?"

 

[tbolt909]

It is totally factual, based on stories in El Comercio, El Telégrafo, El Universo and several online "webpapers". The statement by Guillermo Lasso was widely published, as was his suspension of gun control laws and regulations.

Reuters says, Ecuador's Lasso authorizes civilian use of guns, citing insecurity

I said no such thing. I simply gave evidence of a case where the only people with weapons were criminals, you got the highest murder rate in the hemisphere. So far this year, the nation about the size of metro Los Angeles has had 3,500 violent deaths and will likely exceed 8,000 this year.

And nowhere in my response did I use the term "high powered". Don't misquote, and don't claim I said things I did not say in any way or form.

Ecuador's Lasso authorizes civilian use of guns, citing insecurity

Ecuador has authorized the carrying and use of guns by civilians, President Guillermo Lasso said in a televised broadcast, citing rising crime and insecurity in the Andean country.

www.reuters.com

One of the leading candidates for the upcoming presidential election was shot to death a few weeks ago. An aide to another candidate was shot last week.

"In April, (President) Lasso authorized the civilian use of guns to fight rising insecurity. Ecuadoreans have headed to gun ranges to improve their skills in a bid to protect themselves."

OK, so Ecuador is a dumpster fire. Your solution is ineffectual. Civilized countries with strict gun laws aren't having mass shootings or rampant lawlessness. I could post of list of facts but what's the point.

Too many Americans have become numb to the sickening gun violence. There's something inherently evil about accepting the slaughter of children by automatic weapons.
More guns in circulation is not a sane solution. The US is still an infant nation and the experiment is rapidly derailing...

 

[davideduardo]

In the meantime, where do they get their guns?

Same providers who sell to the police and military are getting immediate shipments for retail sales.

Historically, ranchers ("hacendados") have had unregistered weapons to prevent cattle theft and crop stealing; they are legal to prevent "wild animal attacks". They can now have weapons in their city homes or apartments as well.

 

[davideduardo]

OK, so Ecuador is a dumpster fire. Your solution is ineffectual. Civilized countries with strict gun laws aren't having mass shootings or rampant lawlessness. I could post of list of facts but what's the point.

Ecuador, until the U.S. demand for drugs converted it into what we see today, was as "civilized" s the United States of America. Highly educated, much more advanced in its racial relationships, and economically advancing based on oil and agriculture.

Don't make assumptions that nations in South America are not "civilized".

Too many Americans have become numb to the sickening gun violence. There's something inherently evil about accepting the slaughter of children by automatic weapons.
More guns in circulation is not a sane solution. The US is still an infant nation and the experiment is rapidly derailing...

The issue is "what is causing the violence". And, in Ecuador, Mexico and the US, it is significantly based on the traffic of illegal drugs and the expansion of drug cartels and gangs into other forms of organized crime, such as prostitution, the protection racket, and even the current wave of gang shoplifting. And when gun violence extends to individuals, it is usually caused by drug addicts looking for money or articles to sell to support their habits.

The core problem is not guns. Guns are a symptom of widespread drug addiction and the criminal activity of vendors and addicts.

 

[davideduardo]

At the risk of derailing this further, was the rise in cartel violence spurred by the recent imposition of restrictive gun laws?

In Ecuador, gun restrictive gun laws have existed for many, many decades. The only exceptions were mostly for farmers and ranchers to protect livestock and crops from theft and predators.

Or were the gun laws always restrictive, and the rise in cartel violence can be attributed to other factors than "the people aren't armed enough?"

The cartel violence came from increased demand in the U.S. The existence of a long and accessible coastline on the Pacific, lots of rural land in the "Oriente" (Eastern Amazon jungle) and only a small military force made the drug organizations start using Ecuador as an ideal point of both production and distribution. The violence comes in no small part from different cartels fighting each other for territory.

 

[tbolt909]

The issue is "what is causing the violence". And, in Ecuador, Mexico and the US, it is significantly based on the traffic of illegal drugs and the expansion of drug cartels and gangs into other forms of organized crime, such as prostitution, the protection racket, and even the current wave of gang shoplifting. And when gun violence extends to individuals, it is usually caused by drug addicts looking for money or articles to sell to support their habits.

The core problem is not guns. Guns are a symptom of widespread drug addiction and the criminal activity of vendors and addicts.

The core problem in the US is GUNS. Yes GUNS.
Most opioid addicts who overdose aren't committing mass shootings first. You are trying to muddy the water by mixing two different issues. Unfortunately, there will always be a demand for drugs. Some in poverty see the drug trade as a way to get rich.

The easy access to military style weapons that can slaughter scores of people in mere seconds is a glaring problem. The Founding Fathers would be appalled by the perversion of the 2nd Amendment. The mass shootings in the US are not just drug related. The common link is the WEAPONS.

This thread has drifted from the original topic. The song in question is a rather primitive and simplistic White Mans lament about the American Dream gone bad...

 

[CTListener]

The core problem in the US is GUNS. Yes GUNS.
Most opioid addicts who overdose aren't committing mass shootings first. You are trying to muddy the water by mixing two different issues. Unfortunately, there will always be a demand for drugs. Some in poverty see the drug trade as a way to get rich.

And some in comfortable to luxurious living conditions see it as a way to get richer.

 

[TheBigA]

Tying back to the song Rich Men North of Georgia, how do congressmen get rich? Campaign contributions from lobbyists. Who spend the most? The NRA:

The NRA’s power: By the numbers

The group’s influence extends far beyond campaign contributions.

thehill.com

 

[davideduardo]

The core problem in the US is GUNS. Yes GUNS.
Most opioid addicts who overdose aren't committing mass shootings first.

First, let's look at mental health. The majority of mass shootings are caused by issues involving mental health, anger management, and the like. But the sum of those shootings is really only a small part of the total number of shootings and gun-caused death.

Other shooting may have a variety of reasons, but a majority are drug related. The largest number are caused by drug and criminal gang disputes, and then the rest are done by addicts who shoot guns during a robbery related to financing their habit.

You are trying to muddy the water by mixing two different issues. Unfortunately, there will always be a demand for drugs. Some in poverty see the drug trade as a way to get rich.

So you are discounting the huge percentage of drug-related shootings with guns because you want to talk about the much smaller number of ones that come from mass shootings.

Tell you what: look at the total number of shootings and find out what the causal percentage breakdown is. Gangs doing drug trafficking, addicts looking for drugs or drug money and addicts in a distorted state of mind are going to vastly outnumber mass shootings. And if we count "incidents" instead of the individual number of victims, the difference is even more radical.

"Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported nearly 26,000 homicides in 2021"

"In 2022 at least 3,179 people have been shot in mass shootings, resulting in 637 deaths and more than 2,500 people injured."

So, although I am comparing two different years (I am trying not to waste too much time on your inaccurate data), the relationship of mass murders to total murders gives us about 2.5% of all murders being mass murders.

The easy access to military style weapons that can slaughter scores of people in mere seconds is a glaring problem. The Founding Fathers would be appalled by the perversion of the 2nd Amendment. The mass shootings in the US are not just drug related. The common link is the WEAPONS.

Many of us are opposed to that kind of weapon; they should not be sold for protection or sport, ever. However, the need for personal defense weapons as well as those required by people who work on farms, ranches and the like as well as those used by hunters can't be negated by the acts of a very few deranged people who would, simply, use other weapons if guns were not available.

This thread has drifted from the original topic. The song in question is a rather primitive and simplistic White Mans lament about the American Dream gone bad...

And is it not that person's right to have an opinion?