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Savage interviews Tom Tradup on FCC monitoring of Talk radio (audio)

Salem Radio Network Vice President of News & Talk Programming Tom Tradup recently wrote a piece for RBR-TVBR, "Conservative talk radio in the Obama Era," about the FCC’s notice of a proposed study of radio stations and their newsrooms that will detail how and what stories and topics are selected, their management style and more, led Cumulus Media Networks talker Michael Savage to interview 11/7 him on the matter. The question was, is this Orwellian or draconian? What does it mean to radio stations across the nation? Will the FCC become the Big Brother of radio? Let’s face it, most talk radio in the US is conservative-leaning...Hear the interview here:

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Salem Radio Network Vice President of News & Talk Programming Tom Tradup recently wrote a piece for RBR-TVBR, "Conservative talk radio in the Obama Era," about the FCC’s notice of a proposed study of radio stations and their newsrooms that will detail how and what stories and topics are selected, their management style and more, led Cumulus Media Networks talker Michael Savage to interview 11/7 him on the matter. The question was, is this Orwellian or draconian? What does it mean to radio stations across the nation? Will the FCC become the Big Brother of radio? Let’s face it, most talk radio in the US is conservative-leaning...Hear the interview here:

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Maybe there's an interest in making sure our public airwaves aren't used as a delivery system for hysterical and false information, irrespective to the ideology. Most of talkradio is conservative. They've also, in large part, been extremely irresponsible and reckless for years now. We keep hearing that "it's only entertainment", but it's entertainment masquerading as news, and it's a problem. It has created an alternate reality that makes it almost impossible to have reasoned discourse with those who imbibe it daily.
 
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Maybe there's an interest in making sure our public airwaves aren't used as a delivery system for hysterical and false information, irrespective to the ideology.

The serious question I'll ask you is: Do you want the government to decide what's true or false? Or who should decide? College professors? Retired journalists? Judges? Who doesn't have a bias or a fish to fry?
 
If this study is going to concentrate on radio station's newsrooms then the talkers have no reason to worry, in most cases they have nothing to do with the newsroom.
 
If this study is going to concentrate on radio station's newsrooms then the talkers have no reason to worry, in most cases they have nothing to do with the newsroom.

We all seem to have our own value systems by which we decide what might be investigated.

Would the study be about STATIONS or would it be about TALKERS? The FCC normally would ONLY have a relationship with licensees, not employees or contract providers. The Payola issues of 50 years ago did focus on some personalities and I have trouble remembering who got slapped by the FCC.

I see your "logic" that Talkers and Newsrooms are two different worlds. But if the FCC indeed chose to wade into this swamp, wouldn't they simply see news and talk as simply two side-by-side desks in the office space? Is the licensee responsible for one but not responsible for the other? Is the licensee responsible for either?

I suspect our friend TheBigA is going to point out to us that today's FCC is not concerned about either the person or people sitting at desks labeled NEWS and the person or people sitting at desks labeled TALK. That's 'old school' regulation that went out the window between 20 and 30 years ago.

Wo what would any FCC snooping and sniffing look into?
 
The serious question I'll ask you is: Do you want the government to decide what's true or false? Or who should decide? College professors? Retired journalists? Judges? Who doesn't have a bias or a fish to fry?

I thought the Fairness Doctrine was ridiculous in it's day. Completely unnecessary.

Then stations decided to become one-sided propaganda machines.

Maybe it's time for some force-fed fairness to return, because God knows broadcasters, I mean bankers, don't care about what's going over the air, as long as they make money. Nation be damned.
 
But once again: Who decides what's fair? Should speech be dictated by political appointees? Doesn't that simply put the henhouse under the control of the wolves?
 
But once again: Who decides what's fair? Should speech be dictated by political appointees? Doesn't that simply put the henhouse under the control of the wolves?

Well, the current system lets the bankers and institutional investors decide what is fair. How's that working out for us?

Thursday night I attended a "Town Hall Meeting" orchestrated by a Congressman. If our founding-fathers could come and see that 'goat rodeo' they would probably ask for their Constitution back. They would be offended how we are abusing it.

Yes, I am having a hard time with the meeting because I disagree with the politics of the congressman, but when you look at the mechanical constraints being put on who can speak, who cannot respond to surprise topics, etc., the meeting FORMAT does not pass the 'smell test'.

Should the 'office' of deciding fairness for a given community be sold to the highest bidder? We had an era in European history where the Pope and Rome "sold" the office of deciding fairness and theology to the highest bidder in each little fiefdom. Marin Luther and John Calvin came along and we had something called the Reformation to restructure the concept of fairness in European communities.

Maybe we need a "broadcast reformation" because today's little broadcast fiefdoms don't seem to comprehend the word fairness.

Government DOES decide what is fair speech when it comes to claims made about advertised commercial products. (Remember soup commercials with marbles in the soup?) Government DOES decide what is fair speech when it comes to prescribing drugs and prescriptions.

Government DOES decide what is fair speech when it comes to describing interest rates on consumer lending.
 
Well, the current system lets the bankers and institutional investors decide what is fair. How's that working out for us?

Oh come on. I work in this business and I can tell you that neither bankers nor institutional investors get involved in the low level world of radio programming. If they were, they wouldn't allow talk radio, because it's an expensive format to run. And the truth is that if you look at privately owned stations, they're not programming any different than the corporate ones.

Government regulations about advertising have nothing to do with fairness. That's not why they were instituted.
 
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I posted a lengthy response to his article, but since I'm not an RBR subscriber, I'll repost it here for benefit of discussion.

Tradup likes to cloak in nobility the simple fact that conservative talk currently makes money. All fine and well. But to pretend that you're taking the high ground rather than defending simply what makes your bank is the height of hypocrisy.

He's also inaccurate on numerous points:

1. Tradup portrays talk radio as viewed as one of two things - either knuckle dragging malcontents or "enlightenment." However, he ignores that many of us view it as a medium with much potential that is often tone-deaf to all but one specific ideological bent. While it's not the government's place to force that - it's also not a proud moment for talk radio that in many instances, they pick the weakest opponents of their ideological opposites. Talk radio is not generally the place one turns to for factual debate with intellectual equals. It is a place those who agree with the hosts tune in to hear their views verified and their opponents made to look ignorant at best, and evil at worst.

2. There is legitimate debate that talk radio does not function as "outside one's circle of friends" but instead functions as an instrument of confirmation bias. Research has shown that the conservative talk audience (and the liberal audience likely, to the extent that it's given a radio platform) tunes into their program of choice NOT to be challenged on facts or sharp debate from the opposition, but more as a clubhouse to amplify their views and make one feel they have a "voice" or "champion" in the media. Rush Limbaugh himself credits his success to the fact that people felt that when he came along "they had someone speaking for them, speaking to their values." This does not suggest the ideological perceptions of the audience loyalists are expanded by talk radio, merely affirmed. No one tunes in to entertain the idea that Obama may not be destroying America, or that George Bush wasn't a war-hungry idiot. That isn't the role it plays.

3. Tradup claims talk hosts "add" to the national dialogue. In sheer volume, yes. But one could debate if the national dialogue has benefitted or suffered from the tone, the slander, the selective use of facts, and the "slut shaming" and other such trash talk aired on many programs. The conservatives I know have standards, and Mr. Tradup's employer claims to be Christian - which should make them especially cautious about the tone and attitudes towards those they disagree with that are broadcast on their stations, if Christian is in fact a core value of the company, rather than a marketing concept. I encourage readers to look at the statements made by hosts such as Janet Mefford for examples of how the dialogue is actually degraded by much of Salem's talk programming.

4. Tradup being a radio professional completely misrepresents the image of left wing hosts. He uses the Air America cliche to blame the ideology rather than the presentation style and management of the company. As a broadcaster, Mr. Tradup should recognize that ideology is not the cause of bad product, bad product is still bad regardless of if it's conservative, liberal, or libertarian. Meanwhile, he fails to address that with there being such a thing as blue states, blue markets, and Democrats and liberals winning elections, there is a market out there for non-conservative product - and some survives, including local hosts on very powerful radio stations, along with products such as Thom Hartmann and Ed Schultz which produce results in the free market. In addition, there are successful products for the liberal audience in television, web and print media. To blame the ideology rather than the medium or business strategy is incredibly short sighted.

5. Mr. Tradup is obviously not a very close follower of his own industry or concerned with factual postings, as the "new generation" of FM talkers he cites is a blatant falsehood. The Philadelphia FM was a ratings failure, even with Limbaugh in the lineup. It is being sold to a Christian organization that programs a format of positive music and edifying messages that its own listeners support with an average contribution of $40 a month. It's a stark contrast to the negative and poorly performing "new generation" that preceded it. Many FMs owned by larger broadcasters have abandoned conservative talk because of the lack of added younger listeners even when placed on an FM signal. As to the FM signal he cites in Columbus, well. We'll get to that in point #6.

6. Tradup would most likely concur that the measure for talk radio should be free-market results. And being a broadcaster of such pedigree, he would recognize that ratings are the standard measurement for broadcast success on a mass scale. Examining the stations of his employer, Salem, any objective observer would conclude that most people are not listening to them. Salem talkers routinely stun in the ratings. Stunning in their basement level lows. Many of them struggle to get 1 percent of the audience in major markets with decent signals. That means that most conservatives, not to mention most listeners, are not listening to Salem's talk programming. The Columbus station he cites as proof of a "new generation of FM talk" - is failing to gain new listeners. If that's Mr. Tradup's concept of the future, it appears that future is so cloudy that my shades can remain safely in my pocket.

In conclusion, Salem is no different than Air America in one sense. They are a company with poorly performing talk programs driven by a dedication to a specific and narrow ideology. Salem may well succeed in a billing sense, or by the national reach of their platforms - but by any objective measurement that most of us in commercial broadcasting answer to on a daily basis, their stations fail to reach and connect with younger listeners, or listeners beyond their specific religious and sociological core. They aren't widening the tent. They're huddled in it, sheltering against the coming torrential rain called demographic reality.

Talk radio is a grand format in principle - but withering away in its current execution. One hopes those of us who care about the future of the format and of the dialogue in this country will not navigate said future by Mr. Tradup's dimming beacon.
 
Oh come on. I work in this business and I can tell you that neither bankers nor institutional investors get involved in the low level world of radio programming. If they were, they wouldn't allow talk radio, because it's an expensive format to run. And the truth is that if you look at privately owned stations, they're not programming any different than the corporate ones.

On some topics I am going to have to be hyper-super careful about words and sentence structure. I probably should have said that under our system instead of goverment deciding what is decent, what is socially acceptable, and what is fair, we have "The Business Community" making those decisions. Big business on down to itty-bitty mom-and-pop business. What I see in this conversation is that many citizens, many listeners see a "warped landscape" in the broadcast content. So if we are going to discuss how civilization is going to remain more civilized, we have a discussion on what 'power function' is suited to either control broadcast content or exercise strong influence.

At one time we assumed it was the role of government. That is not a popular concept today.

Today we seem to have the 'business proprietors' in control of content, standards, decency and tone. The current question on the floor is: is there some other structure better suited for that task.

The church? No... that leads to the question: Which church will be the lead dog driving the pack.

Academia? Maybe a congress of representatives of the Land Grant Colleges could take the task. (I think you can see at this point I am "brainstorming".... throwing out some catalyst style ideas in hopes it will trigger some alternatives in the minds of people participating in this discussion.
Government regulations about advertising have nothing to do with fairness. That's not why they were instituted.

I perceive that with you the word "fairness" is a dog-whistle word with dirty connotations from the FCC FAIRNESS DOCTRINE days.

Fairness also simply mean honesty... or equity.... or fair play... integrity... or decency.

When we outlaw broadcast advertising and print advertising of cigarettes, it has to do with being honest with people. For years we said cigarettes were cool, they gave you comfort and pleasure. And we decided "The Fair Thing To Do" was to require the manufacturers and sellers of tobacco to enter into a world of fairness and require them to also say: "These damn things will kill you!!!!!"

We decided that when you show product on TV or in vivid color print ads, it is not honest, it is not an act of integrity, it is not decent, there is no FAIRNESS if you introduce foreign substances into your product to make them give an exaggerated amount of appeal that is not in the real product when you take it home from the grocery store and heat it up. That is an issue of honesty, of FAIRNESS.

To advertise that this car will get 38 M.P.G. when we all know from driving one that the model actually gets about 22 M.P.G is not legal, not honest, not an act of integrity, is not an action of FAIRNESS so we outlaw the practice. (I know. MPG numbers are pretty squishy.)

My point was this. If we demand that the makers of cigarettes be honest in their advertising, if we demand that auto manufacturers be honest in their advertising, if we demand that small loan companies be honest in their advertising of interest rates,..... what is so outrageous that we might ask people who broadcast political thoughts and ideas have some integrity, honesty, decency, some FAIRNESS if you please.

We know how to measure MPG. We know how to weigh a package of corn flakes and see if is what it is labeled to be in weight. We know how to calculate interest rates. What we seem incapable of doing, or unwilling to do, is to assay the spoken word and measure it for accuracy and integrity. Can a nation that intends to continue the practice of "self government" survive if it does not come up with some way to run the spoken word through a volt meter or a PET Scan MRI or across a bathroom scale or through some blood analyzer and separate the talk with integrity from the talk that is infested with Tumble Bugs even before it collects in the corner of barn lot.
 
Today we seem to have the 'business proprietors' in control of content, standards, decency and tone. The current question on the floor is: is there some other structure better suited for that task.

Well, who patronizes those "business proprietors?" Who puts the money into their pockets that they then spend on radio ads? Don't you think those patrons play a part in the decisions they make? And in that way, don't the patrons of American business then determine content, decency, standards, and tone? I know that every day, I see orders from sponsors that specifically say they don't want their advertising placed near any negative talk programming. It's bad for their image, it's bad for business, and they feel it's bad for America. Do you think they're wrong?

Someone has to pay for our broadcasting system. They people who pay for it get a voice in what goes on the air. It's not 100% of the voice. I remember once that a business owner loved opera, and he wanted to sponsor opera programming. Fortunately, I was at a public station, and we could take his money, and give him his opera. But there are a lot of other stations that couldn't.

Fairness also simply mean honesty... or equity.... or fair play... integrity... or decency.

Maybe that's what it means to you, but that's not why the government regulates things like cigarettes. That's more a factor of safety.

Here's the thing: The centerpiece of American broadcasting and government is the word "freedom." Freedom isn't pretty, and it's often not fair, pretty, or even honest. The American broadcasting system gives people a platform to talk about things. Some of those things are the very government that regulates broadcasting. Now if someone on the radio says something that incites a riot, or harms the public safety, that person is liable. But if he happens to just call the President an idiot, that's free speech. The law is very clear. To put the government in charge of what the radio can say could prevent "we the people" from criticizing our government, and the Founding Fathers were very clear that they wanted that to be able to happen. The First Amendment is very clear about what the government can't do. We may not like what these baboons are saying on the public airwaves, but we're not required to listen to them either. Give it enough time, and the marketplace will do what the government can't.
 
But once again: Who decides what's fair? Should speech be dictated by political appointees? Doesn't that simply put the henhouse under the control of the wolves?

The First Amendment prevents such things. Not that many, many administrations haven't tried to control "free" speech, going back to John Adams.
 
Maybe that's what it means to you, but that's not why the government regulates things like cigarettes. That's more a factor of safety.

An excellent addition to the conversation: Safety.

Tension is another word or value or condition that belongs in this discussion. Example: There will be 'tension' as people compare safety and freedom.

There will tension between privacy and freedom of speech.

In all of the discussion going on about political values, I see too many people wrapping their arms around ONE VALUE that they most want but they fail to evaluate what 'tension value' is sitting on the other end of the see-saw. If they get the value they are demanding, what opposing value get's crushed on the other end of the transaction?

If you have a freedom that isn't honest..... do you really have a legitimate freedom?
 
>> Quote Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo Cowboy

>> If you have a freedom that isn't honest.....
>> do you really have a legitimate freedom?

The "if" part of your question is based on an incorrect assumption. So if you base logic on an incorrect assumption, is it a legitimate question?

Share with us what my 'incorrect assumption' is.

I would summarize that in this thread, and in other similar threads, we return to the idea that in this nation we have FREEDOM. We don't take much time and energy trying to figure out what that means. But when the conversation gets intense, it is our usual "get of jail free card" to say you can't criticize what broadcasters do because they have Freedom of Speech.

I am promoting a conversation here where I hope people will take the time to realize there is theory of freedom and the practical application of freedom. At that point we have to sit down and converse with each other: "What does FREEDOM mean to you?" Is there a difference between freedom and liberty. Is freedom something you have to view like Fundamentalists view the Bible: "Freedom has only ONE definition and it has been the same exact definition since the beginning of time!" Or do we define freedom in the 21st century differently than our people who met in Independence Hall circa 1776 understood the word?

So: What is my incorrect assumption? Maybe I should change my question so it can be legitimate.
 
So: What is my incorrect assumption?

That freedom of speech and press isn't honest or legitimate. This thread is talking about instituting some kind of government control on radio programming. That is counter to the stated role of our government. That's what makes these freedoms legitimate. It's not about the Bible. That has no role in this issue. It's about the role of government telling citizens what they can and can't say about their government.

You can criticize radio broadcasters all you want. No problem there. But the government can't step in and tell them what they can and can't say. Two different things.
 
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That freedom of speech and press isn't honest or legitimate.

At some point speech that contains lies reaches a point of dishonesty and become illegitimate. My contribution to this thread is to ask: How do we recognize that point, and what do we do we see that happening. I have attempted to ask the question: "What other avenues are available to us to expose dishonest and illegitimate speech since government is NOT the vehicle for a remedy.

This thread is talking about instituting some kind of government control on radio programming. That is counter to the stated role of our government. That's what makes these freedoms legitimate.

As I stated before: It has become the role of government to regulate false advertising of commercial products. It has become the role of government to regulate how interest rates are described in promoting financing of purchases. To say that government can never, never ever have even the hint of a role in policing verbiage on radio is to simply express your desire on the issue, and not necessarily what can be done.

This example is state rather than federal, but in Georgia we are currently watching as the State of Georgia regulates free speech. The Federal law call for insurance exchanges for people to explore health insurance options. (You may have head about Obamacare. It has been in the news lately.) The Federal law calls for setting up "Navigators" who are available to give information to people who need some hand-holding as they explore what their options are. The state of Georgia has imposed draconian prohibitions on what the Navigators may say in the presence of their "clients". Tell me how it is we can limit the speech of Navigators, a position defined by the Federal government, but we can't even have a discussion over who (besides the government) might be able to express some limits on talk radio. A Navigator does not have any freedom of speech, but a dufus on the radio has TOTAL freedom and it is even illegitimate that we come to this discussion site and raise the issue.

It's not about the Bible. That has no role in this issue. It's about the role of government telling citizens what they can and can't say about their government.

You can criticize radio broadcasters all you want. No problem there. But the government can't step in and tell them what they can and can't say. Two different things.

I did not suggest or intend to imply that religion had a role in this discussion. I illustrated rigid literalism in interpreting documents including our constitution. Rigid literalism is what some people of various religions do and it is an unpleasant experience that most people understand.

Rigid Literalism can be described by early implementations of OSHA. I was in the automobile repair business at the time. OSHA people would walk into your shop and take their tape measure to the fire extinguishers. There was about a 2 inch tolerance in the distance the extinguisher should be mounted above the floor. One quarter inch too high or one quarter inch too low and you were written up and fined. None of this: "We know this law is new and it is overwhelming. Get this corrected and we'll stop back later to check."

Go back and read the totality of my posts. I make the claim that some of the content we hear on radio today is detrimental to the idea of having a form of self-government that has robustness and vitality. My intent is to explore the question: "If government is forbidden to correct this 'thorn-in-the-flesh' then what alternatives are available to us. Self policing? Pressure from other lines of business? Vocal action by an irate public?

About five years ago we learned that the mortgage industry is incapable of policing itself. The banking industry is incapable of policing itself. Every state in the nation has figured out that barbers, beauticians and the people who do manicures are incapable of policing themselves. How is it we keep kidding ourselves that the broadcast industry is capable of policing itself.

You and I agree, the Federal Government is not in a role to get the job done. Who is?
 
At some point speech that contains lies reaches a point of dishonesty and become illegitimate.

Doesn't matter. It's still protected free speech. If the lie can be proven to have caused injury, pain, or financial loss, then the lies are covered by existing liability laws. But you need to be able to prove that they know they are lying and are doing so maliciously and on purpose.

Look...I don't like what these people are saying any more than you do. But they believe they're telling the truth, and they have a right to express their opinion. The only way to fairly deal with it in broadcasting is to say that no one can use the airwaves to express an opinion. That would include musical artists.

You and I agree, the Federal Government is not in a role to get the job done. Who is?

I think it's the price we pay for self government. The marketplace is clearly weighing in on these folks. Their days are numbered by their ratings. There will always be an audience for baboons and clowns, and so these folks will get a share of that. But they have a right to believe what they want to believe, even when it's clearly wrong. I saw a poll that says 17% of the voting population still believes the President is a Muslim who is not a US citizen, and the past two elections were illegitimate. They have a right to that opinion, even when it's obviously wrong.

One possible thing you could try is take one of them to court and try to equate what they're saying with obscenities. Then it would be covered. But I think you have a stretch, and if you win, it could then be turned around and used to ban a lot of love songs we hear on the radio.
 
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>> TheBigA wrote:
>> There will always be an audience for baboons and clowns,
>> and so these folks will get a share of that.
>> But they have a right to believe what they want to believe,
>> even when it's clearly wrong.

Thank you my friend for a great and robust conversation.

From the time radio hit it's stride (I mark that at around 1930) through the year 2000, our nation has experimented, has tried a few things maybe we have left alone, and had tried a few things that have become cherished parts of our culture.

Today we have a new crop of leaders who have never lived through 'Hoover Rabbits', the Dust Bowl, a World War that we had no assurance we could win, and the days when we not sure we could "stare down" Communism. We have a crowd in political office who never knew the Big City political Machines of the early and mid 1900s,and didn't get to watch the hysteria that a very glib man by the name of Hitler brought to Europe. Yes, they have heard of these things. They are a chapter in the history books today up-and-coming leadership breezed through on their way to graduation. But there is something different about either living through them, or having them still in your rear-view-mirror.

But today's leaders deserve the opportunity to stumble through the learning curve just like previous generations, and make a few mistakes along the way. It's like teaching your own kids how to drive or how to ski. It's painful to watch them make the same mistakes we made years ago and we are tempted to reach out and shake them and say: "Just trust me. You DON'T want to do it way. I've tried it and it doesn't work."

See you in another tropic some time soon.

G.R.C.
 
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