Signal Question about 100.3 FM of Media/Philadelphia

[KML0224]

I listened to a few minutes of 100.3 The Beat while visiting Philadelphia on Friday. I was wondering how did the Philadelphia radio market end up with a 100.3 FM assignment so close to that of WHTZ-FM 100.3 of Newark/New York City? I left Philadelphia with this station playing, intentionally leaving it to see how long it'd be until WHTZ-FM started to interfere. I got the first hint of them for a few seconds as far south as Exit 7 of the New Jersey Turnpike. It was mostly The Beat until maybe Exit 8 of so in East Windsor, NJ where WHTZ-FM started winning the battle.

On a side note, I noticed that their legal ID and some promos are voiced by Eric Edwards, the same voiceover man on HOT 97 in New York City and JAM'N 94.5 in Boston.

 

[amfmsw]

100.3 is licensed to Media, PA, some miles west of Philly. It was originally WXUR, Rev. Carl McIntyre's station. It's license was revoked during the Nixon Administration in a landmark legal case with the Fairness Doctrine.

That signal battle is not as intense as 101.1's WBEB & WCBS-FM's. I get both here at the Jersey Shore with just a few degrees swing of the yagi, and with more love, I'll get 101. from Virginia Beach. Although, CBS's signal was much better when it was atop the WTC.

 

[ccuphl]

I was wondering how did the Philadelphia radio market end up with a 100.3 FM assignment so close to that of WHTZ-FM 100.3 of Newark/New York City?

You should go a little west of the city where only two counties seperate two 50kw stations on 96.1 (WSOX and WCTO).

 

[BRNout]

You should go a little west of the city where only two counties seperate two 50kw stations on 96.1 (WSOX and WCTO).

Yep, at my house I can get both and am able to switch between them with the flick of the wrist!

Don't know the story of how two 96.1's ended up so short spaced, but I do know that the 101.1's ended up that way because the spacings were different back in the early 1960s and both stations ended up "grandfathered" when the regs were changed to increase the co-channel spacing.

The point made about 100.3 is misses one thing. Media, PA is farther from NYC than Philadelphia; BUT, WHTZ is licensed to Newark, NJ and is thus that frequency is just as short spaced as WCBS-FM is to WBEB on 101.1.

Not to mention that it's transmitter is still from the Roxborough towers and it's effective power is essentially the same as other Philly FMs from there, such as WOGL, WDAS-FM and B-101. It's lower on the tower than most, but also transmits with more juice. In the end, the theoretical range of WPHI should be about the same as any of the other big FMs transmitting from that site. So, the battle between the 100.3s in New Jersey should be just as bad as the one between the 101.1s.

I guess it's all the result of a crowded northeast corridor that developed relatively early in the history of FM.

 

[rapking]

Well The signal fight you all are talking about, happen outside of a major city ( Philly ) .Here in Boston, The Signal Wars go on in the city of Boston . Hot 106 ( 106.3 ) Providence R.I. Crash against some Sh--ty Station in New Hampshire ( 106.3 Frank ) and Fun 107 New Bedford MA ( South of Boston ) signal Crash with another Sh--ty station in N.H. ( 107.1 ) and WAAF ( 107.3 west of Boston ) go to war with these two stations ( on 107.1 )North and south of Boston . 104.9 WRBB signal war with a station Just outside of Boston ( North of the city 104.9). Sometime I cant hear WRBB, if I am standing next to WRBB Station .

 

[kms575]

Well The signal fight you all are talking about, happen outside of a major city ( Philly ) .Here in Boston, The Signal Wars go on in the city of Boston . Hot 106 ( 106.3 ) Providence R.I. Crash against some Sh--ty Station in New Hampshire ( 106.3 Frank ) and Fun 107 New Bedford MA ( South of Boston ) signal Crash with another Sh--ty station in N.H. ( 107.1 ) and WAAF ( 107.3 west of Boston ) go to war with these two stations ( on 107.1 )North and south of Boston . 104.9 WRBB signal war with a station Just outside of Boston ( North of the city 104.9). Sometime I cant hear WRBB, if I am standing next to WRBB Station .

The discussion is on spacing, not your biased view on music and radio formats. (see 106.3 and 107.1 examples above).

 

[KSB]

You should go a little west of the city where only two counties seperate two 50kw stations on 96.1 (WSOX and WCTO).

WSOX and WCTO battle it out through most of Berks County. The other short-spaced signals, which are actually about one mile closer together and seem much worse than the 96.1's are WAEB (Allentown) and WNNK (Harrisburg) on 104.1. And how about the 105.7's in Baltimore (WHFS) and York (WQXA)? I've never really listened to those two going down I-83, but I bet it's a mess, even though those two have nulls to protect the other.

WSOX/WCTO - 77.8 miles apart
WAEB/WNNK - 76.5 miles apart
WQXA/WHFS - 47.2 miles apart
Honorable mention to WQKX (Sunbury)/WYSP (Philly) on 94.1 - 92.4 miles apart

 

[KML0224]

I'm assuming you all are talking about commercial radio only? Here in Connecticut, we have the following:

WFCS-FM 107.7 New Britain [Central Connecticut State University]
WWRX-FM 107.7 Pawcatuck [CHR/Urban] Jam'n 107.7
WACC-LP 107.7 Enfield [Asnuntuck Community College]

OK, let's be honest. WFCS has a "massive" 36 watt signal I can barely get in the south end of New Britain, their city of license no less! (2 1/2 miles from me at the most.) I occasionally get WWRX when WFCS is off the air. The Enfield, CT station is classified as a low-power station. I got a trace of it on my Panasonic "Walkman" in Springfield, MA (about 7 miles north of WACC-LP), down I-91 to about Windsor, CT, between Hartford and Bradley Int'l Airport.

The only other situation which may be close to this here? 98.3 FM is home to WDAQ-FM of Danbury (Hot AC "98-Q"), WILI-FM of Willimantic (CHR "I-98.3") and a Spanish translator station of sorts in Meriden, CT. [WILI-FM usually wins out for me here.]

 

[EasyBakeOven]

This topic has been discussed before. In the nutshell, the spacing wasn’t an issue when both signals first signed on with lower power. In 1983, 100.3 in Philly and 100.3 in Newark both wanted to increase their power. In an effort to speed up the process the owners basically came to an agreement that they would each accept the areas of interference.

 

[luperm]

That signal battle is not as intense as 101.1's WBEB & WCBS-FM's. I get both here at the Jersey Shore with just a few degrees swing of the yagi, and with more love, I'll get 101. from Virginia Beach. Although, CBS's signal was much better when it was atop the WTC.

WCBS-FM was never on the WTC. Some FM's considered moving to WTC in the early 70s, but it was not really an ideal FM site with all of the multipath problems. On 9/11, the only FM's on WTC were 93.1, 93.9, 103.5, and 89.9. 101.9 was on WTC for a few years, but eventually moved back to Empire because it was better suited for FM.

For years, WCBS-FM shared a mini-master system with WQHT (old NBC O&O) and WPLJ (old ABC O&O). Things have shuffled around more recently between 9/11 and the DTV transition. It's required a complete rebuild of just about everything on ESB. Even if it wanted, I don't think WCBS-FM could have pulled off a move to WTC due to short spacing to WBEB. Just about every big signal in the northeast is sandwiched in there pretty tight.

 

[Play Freebird]

WCBS-FM was never on the WTC. Some FM's considered moving to WTC in the early 70s, but it was not really an ideal FM site with all of the multipath problems. On 9/11, the only FM's on WTC were 93.1, 93.9, 103.5, and 89.9. 101.9 was on WTC for a few years, but eventually moved back to Empire because it was better suited for FM.

For years, WCBS-FM shared a mini-master system with WQHT (old NBC O&O) and WPLJ (old ABC O&O). Things have shuffled around more recently between 9/11 and the DTV transition. It's required a complete rebuild of just about everything on ESB. Even if it wanted, I don't think WCBS-FM could have pulled off a move to WTC due to short spacing to WBEB. Just about every big signal in the northeast is sandwiched in there pretty tight.

Although WCBS-FM never actually moved to WTC, they were granted an FCC construction permit for the change in site.

I had a conversation with David Kurtz (founder of WBEB) several years ago about how he negotiated his full Class B non-directional operation in Roxborough.

The opportunity presented itself when CBS filed for the WTC CP in the '70s, as they needed his consent to reduce the spacing towards Philadelphia. At that time, WBEB (then WDVR) was transmitting from the relatively short WIOQ tower and wasn't up to the full Class B limit towards New York. So Dave demanded a "quid pro quo", which was a mutual agreement to operate with full facilities; this allowed him to move to the Banks (Channel 17) tower.

 

[nd2023]

So, would CBS-FM have a better signal like Z100 does now if they had not filed a CP for the WTC site? Besides, the WTC wasn't that far from Empire, so what was the big deal about the short-spacing?

 

[eyg2181]

Honorable mention to WQKX (Sunbury)/WYSP (Philly) on 94.1 - 92.4 miles apart

YES!, but WYSP OWNS WQKX. and pottsville is only about 30 miles from pottsville, when philly is 70. figure that one out? 94KX only bleeds in in certain areas, and they dont take opver completely until after you pass rt.81 on rt.61

with that being said:

WPST, and WDAC!!!

dac interferes with PST in their LOCAL territory, plymouth meeting area, on the turnpike right before the NE Extension exit, and parts of the Lehigh Valley. but yet, PST can be heard on some of the mountain tops over in schuylkill county.

 

[qtpieislit]

and pottsville is only about 30 miles from pottsville, when philly is 70. figure that one out?

I can't because I can't get my hands on to what you're taking.

 

[eyg2181]

and pottsville is only about 30 miles from pottsville, when philly is 70. figure that one out?

I can't because I can't get my hands on to what you're taking.

wow, what a stupid mistake... sunbury is about 30 miles from pottsville

 

[Play Freebird]

So, would CBS-FM have a better signal like Z100 does now if they had not filed a CP for the WTC site? Besides, the WTC wasn't that far from Empire, so what was the big deal about the short-spacing?

The reason Z100 does better towards Philadelphia than CBS-FM is that WPHI has a directional antenna is Roxborough which provides a slight reduction in power towards New York (but a greater reduction towards 100.1 WJRZ)

On the other hand WBEB's antenna is non directional and radiates a full 50 kW/150 m equivalent signal towards New York.

The proposed move of WCBS-FM from Empire to WTC didn't involve much distance, but the FCC also looks at predicted interference contours and where they fall on the map. With the 101.1 overlap zone falling in densely-populated central NJ, a move of two miles could cause an increase in predicted interference affecting at least 200,000 people, at least on paper. WBEB was able to offset this to some extent by improving facilities.

Let me just say the FCC rules are consistently inconsistent when it comes to short-spacing agreements (and a lot of other things!)

 

[luperm]

Let me just say the FCC rules are consistently inconsistent when it comes to short-spacing agreements (and a lot of other things!)

Right. And a lot has to do with how "agreeable" the stations negotiating the mutual interference agreement are. If the WTC move was important to WCBS-FM, they may have been a bit more "flexible" in accepting more interference from WBEB. WBEB, looking to have a facility that is more or less on par with the other Philly Class B's probably jumped at the opportunity.

Another negotiated short spacing deal involved WKTU (103.5) moving to the WTC. Agreements had to be worked out with WNNJ-FM (103.7) and WPRB (103.3) so that KTU could get the full B facility they wanted. Of course it helped that WNNJ-FM was co-owned and downgraded the facility from Class B to Class B1.