With all the talk of Clear Channel selling stations below market 100, I was wondering what any has heard about the Wheeling WV cluster? I would post this on the West Virginia site, but I figured I would probably wait a month for a response over there.
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Southwest of Pittsburgh. What happens to CC Wheeling?
- Thread starter radiogeek07
- Start date
How crazy would this be? Here's how it goes.
1170 bought by Key Market they own News/talk and Sports in the valley.
But what would happen to 98.7? Not another Froggy!
May be Priority gets into the game and picks up Eagle?
Key Market picks up 95.7, and changes the name back to... you guessed it... WOMPFM!
It's fun to think about anyway.
1170 bought by Key Market they own News/talk and Sports in the valley.
But what would happen to 98.7? Not another Froggy!
May be Priority gets into the game and picks up Eagle?
Key Market picks up 95.7, and changes the name back to... you guessed it... WOMPFM!
It's fun to think about anyway.
Ohio radio man said:
I would really like to see Jay Phillipone and his gang at Priority Communications take advantage of these opportunities and expand their portfolio. I've heard Jay's stations, and they're all very community-centered, and I mean that by saying that he hasn't accomplished it through move-ins or like that. He owns stations that are in very small markets, but they still make money serving their cities of license, treating the larger suburb strictly as a second city. They have to work a little harder to make a profit happen, but they're doing it, and that's the kind of work ethic that truly drives success in this business...or any other, for that matter.
You hit the nail right on the head, Jay is the best medicine 106.3 & 1430 have seen in years.You are right on all accounts those stations are run like a radio station is supposed to. (Serve the public interest, convenience and necessity.) Ever since WSTV went ESPN and dumped local involvement, Jay and his crew have molded WEIR into a community servent that Weirton-Steubenville deserves.106.3 also does an increadable job playing classic hits laced with an air staff of local people whom the market is familiar with.
don't be surprised if the cc west virginia stations get sold to west virginia radio corp.
makes sense for both parties
makes sense for both parties
R
Radio_Realist
Guest
Serve the public interest
Doesn't that also mean that the public needs to be interested? If the people who live in a small town are not interested in shopping in that small town but instead want to travel to distant "big box" discount stores to shop, and otherwise won't support the businesses and other enterprises in their small town, what makes anyone think they'll support a small town radio station?
Doesn't that also mean that the public needs to be interested? If the people who live in a small town are not interested in shopping in that small town but instead want to travel to distant "big box" discount stores to shop, and otherwise won't support the businesses and other enterprises in their small town, what makes anyone think they'll support a small town radio station?
Radio_Realist said:
Very true...there's a lot of stations out there that are totally irrelevant in their communities. If you run your station like a throwaway, that's exactly how the public is going to perceive it.
R
Radio_Realist
Guest
Very true...there's a lot of stations out there that are totally irrelevant in their communities.
Huh?!?! What does that have to do with what I said? I pointed out that nowadays, the people who live in small towns tend to not support the businesses in their small towns, preferring to deal with big national discount chains, even if they have to drive some distance away. I said nothing about whether or not those businesses were relevant to their communities or not.
If a local grocery store owner tries his best, does all he can do to appeal to the people in his community, and they still would rather hop in the car and head down the interstate to Wal-Mart, what's the local grocer to do? If the guy who owns the local hardware store finds that the local people prefer to drive down the interstate to the big Home Depot or Lowes, what's the local hardware store guy to do? If the guy who runs the local restaurant finds that the local people would rather take a ride a few exits down the interstate to where there's an Applebee's, a Lone Star Steak House, and three of four other big chain restaurants when they eat out, what's he to do?
My point was that if people won't support other local businesses just because they are local, why would they support a local radio station that wasn't playing what they wanted to hear? And based on what people tune in to, what they want to hear seems to be their favorite music format.
I submit that as long as people in the 21st century don't seem to care about their "local community", it doesn't matter how hard a small-town radio station operator tries to be "relevant" to them. If the listeners don't care, then they don't care. No broadcaster is going to force the people in a small town to change from identifying themselves with the nearby large town instead of the little hamlet where they live.
Allegheny and Birmingham used to be separate small towns, now they are neighborhoods in Pittsburgh called "Noorthside" and "Southside". Canonsburg used to be a small town, now it's a neighborhood in Pittsburgh. Every year, the distance at which the residents of small towns change from seeing themselves as living in independent small towns to people living in a neighborhood of the closest big town increases.
Wheeling is at the point where the spreading ripples are starting to reach it. Steubenville has already surrendered. The Chamber of Commerce of Steubenville is already marketing the town as "the 'Burb of the 'Burgh", and positioning it as just another neighborhood in the Greater Pittsburgh Area. Listen to their radio commercials or visit their website.
You want to be "relevant" to the people who live in a small town? Then the first thing you have to do is to determine how the people who live in a small town think of themselves, and what they expect from their small town. If the people who live in a small town identify with the big city nearby, and see their small town as just another neighborhood in that big city, you're not going to change their perceptions.
Huh?!?! What does that have to do with what I said? I pointed out that nowadays, the people who live in small towns tend to not support the businesses in their small towns, preferring to deal with big national discount chains, even if they have to drive some distance away. I said nothing about whether or not those businesses were relevant to their communities or not.
If a local grocery store owner tries his best, does all he can do to appeal to the people in his community, and they still would rather hop in the car and head down the interstate to Wal-Mart, what's the local grocer to do? If the guy who owns the local hardware store finds that the local people prefer to drive down the interstate to the big Home Depot or Lowes, what's the local hardware store guy to do? If the guy who runs the local restaurant finds that the local people would rather take a ride a few exits down the interstate to where there's an Applebee's, a Lone Star Steak House, and three of four other big chain restaurants when they eat out, what's he to do?
My point was that if people won't support other local businesses just because they are local, why would they support a local radio station that wasn't playing what they wanted to hear? And based on what people tune in to, what they want to hear seems to be their favorite music format.
I submit that as long as people in the 21st century don't seem to care about their "local community", it doesn't matter how hard a small-town radio station operator tries to be "relevant" to them. If the listeners don't care, then they don't care. No broadcaster is going to force the people in a small town to change from identifying themselves with the nearby large town instead of the little hamlet where they live.
Allegheny and Birmingham used to be separate small towns, now they are neighborhoods in Pittsburgh called "Noorthside" and "Southside". Canonsburg used to be a small town, now it's a neighborhood in Pittsburgh. Every year, the distance at which the residents of small towns change from seeing themselves as living in independent small towns to people living in a neighborhood of the closest big town increases.
Wheeling is at the point where the spreading ripples are starting to reach it. Steubenville has already surrendered. The Chamber of Commerce of Steubenville is already marketing the town as "the 'Burb of the 'Burgh", and positioning it as just another neighborhood in the Greater Pittsburgh Area. Listen to their radio commercials or visit their website.
You want to be "relevant" to the people who live in a small town? Then the first thing you have to do is to determine how the people who live in a small town think of themselves, and what they expect from their small town. If the people who live in a small town identify with the big city nearby, and see their small town as just another neighborhood in that big city, you're not going to change their perceptions.
Realist, I think you make a good point here. But I also wonder if the tide is turning during this time in America to return to "the local community" instead of associating with the adjacent metropolis. I think people used to associate with the metropolis because that was the center of social life. There were more people there. But now, people continue moving out to the suburbs, essentially creating new small towns. I know where I live in Wadsworth, you could consider us a suburb of Akron, but the small town community feel is still quite strong here. There is adamant support for things like the high school athletic teams, and even the town's WCTV cable television station, operated at the high school, seems to garner plenty of attention, as they are the source for town meetings, athletic rebroadcasts (with commentators), musicals/plays/concerts, and even elementary and high school news broadcasts. Of course, the radio & TV is all Akron/Cleveland/Canton, not "Wadsworth".
Which leads right into your closing point:
You're dead on here.
Maybe the suburbs of Pittsburgh act more in line with your mentioned Steubenville, but maybe others are starting to emerge such as Wadsworth.
As for Wheeling, it seems to me that it is an older town that still may appreciate its own small circle to some regard, meaning that a more locally-focused venture on a more established station (think 1170 AM or one of the class B FMs) might be successful. However, that focus won't work for all the signals.
R
Radio_Realist
Guest
Maybe the suburbs of Pittsburgh act more in line with your mentioned Steubenville, but maybe others are starting to emerge such as Wadsworth.
It's neither. When dealing with mass market attitudes of thousands or tens of thousands of people, isolated examples are meaningless. According to social scientists (a bunch I seldom have much use for), people are increasingly identifiying with their "community" as defined by common interests, not common geography. That doesn't mean everyone jumps to the new paradigm all at once. It only means that a trend has been in process for some time now. People are tending to identify more with being part of "the ______ community", where the word in the blank is some socio-economic group like gay, straight, single, married, Christian, athiest, soccer fan, punk music, oldies fan, biker, etc.
As for Wheeling, it seems to me that it is an older town that still may appreciate its own small circle to some regard, meaning that a more locally-focused venture on a more established station (think 1170 AM or one of the class B FMs) might be successful.
Maybe it would. Or maybe a station that carries nothing but satellite feeds of program content that the local people really like would also succeed. And maybe a station that hires really good, aggressive airtime sales people who do an outstanding job of pounding the pavement selling spots might succeed, even if the station's content sucks.
It's neither. When dealing with mass market attitudes of thousands or tens of thousands of people, isolated examples are meaningless. According to social scientists (a bunch I seldom have much use for), people are increasingly identifiying with their "community" as defined by common interests, not common geography. That doesn't mean everyone jumps to the new paradigm all at once. It only means that a trend has been in process for some time now. People are tending to identify more with being part of "the ______ community", where the word in the blank is some socio-economic group like gay, straight, single, married, Christian, athiest, soccer fan, punk music, oldies fan, biker, etc.
As for Wheeling, it seems to me that it is an older town that still may appreciate its own small circle to some regard, meaning that a more locally-focused venture on a more established station (think 1170 AM or one of the class B FMs) might be successful.
Maybe it would. Or maybe a station that carries nothing but satellite feeds of program content that the local people really like would also succeed. And maybe a station that hires really good, aggressive airtime sales people who do an outstanding job of pounding the pavement selling spots might succeed, even if the station's content sucks.
Radio_Realist said:
Just pipe down, Realist. :
Here's how you had your words phrased:Doesn't that also mean that the public needs to be interested? If the people who live in a small town are not interested in shopping in that small town but instead want to travel to distant "big box" discount stores to shop, and otherwise won't support the businesses and other enterprises in their small town, what makes anyone think they'll support a small town radio station?
I meant that radio can be a companion piece to help local business if they give their community a reason to turn them on. Local radio is supported by local advertisers. Any well-marketed, well-produced radio format can be of considerable appeal to its community. People listen, they hear the ads, then they realize that what they're going to the bigbox retailer for isn't such a bargain. The smarter radio station operators belong to their local chambers and contribute valuable input to help their communities survive...because they have a lot to lose.
Downtown merchant associations also need to change their ways of thinking when it comes to fighting bigbox retailers. In Butler, Pennsylvania, there are NO parking meters on Main Street (they do have them on the side streets). All parking is free for two hours for those shopping or otherwise doing business in town. The same goes for the city of Tiffin, Ohio. In both cases, the downtown area not only survived, but THRIVED. A simple thing like that can do wonders for a small town.
When you have a strong downtown area, it looks more attractive to other businesses wishing to start-up or relocate there. Downtowns are starting to make a comeback because rents are cheap, more communities are re-evaluating their metered parking situations, and even shopping center developers are changing their designs. State Main Street programs are also grant-funding the renovation or demolition of buildings that had been blighted. The fully-enclosed indoor shopping mall is now falling by the wayside because shoppers for whatever reason, are finding themselves more drawn to the strip-mall designs.
Which brings me to this...
My point was that if people won't support other local businesses just because they are local, why would they support a local radio station that wasn't playing what they wanted to hear? And based on what people tune in to, what they want to hear seems to be their favorite music format.
I rest my case.
R
Radio_Realist
Guest
In Butler, Pennsylvania, there are NO parking meters on Main Street (they do have them on the side streets).
As I said in my earlier post, "When dealing with mass market attitudes of thousands or tens of thousands of people, isolated examples are meaningless."
if they give their community a reason to turn them on.
As I said, "people are increasingly identifiying with their "community" as defined by common interests, not common geography. That doesn't mean everyone jumps to the new paradigm all at once. It only means that a trend has been in process for some time now. People are tending to identify more with being part of "the ______ community", where the word in the blank is some socio-economic group like gay, straight, single, married, Christian, athiest, soccer fan, punk music, oldies fan, biker, etc."
In case you didn't understand what I was getting at, WORD-FM programs for the Christian community. WAMO-FM programs for the African-American community. 3WS programs for the Oldies Fan community. 1250 and 970 AM both program for the sports fan community. All of those stations give their "communities" a reason to turn them on. But none of those "communities" are defined by geography.
Two isolated examples of two small towns (Butler and Tiffin) bucking a trend successfully doesn't disprove the facts of the trend. A few isolated examples of a few radio stations getting lucky with a small town approach doesn't prove that small town radio will automatically succeed in every small town that tries the same techniques.
I rest my case.
Huh?!?!? You made no case to rest.
As I said in my earlier post, "When dealing with mass market attitudes of thousands or tens of thousands of people, isolated examples are meaningless."
if they give their community a reason to turn them on.
As I said, "people are increasingly identifiying with their "community" as defined by common interests, not common geography. That doesn't mean everyone jumps to the new paradigm all at once. It only means that a trend has been in process for some time now. People are tending to identify more with being part of "the ______ community", where the word in the blank is some socio-economic group like gay, straight, single, married, Christian, athiest, soccer fan, punk music, oldies fan, biker, etc."
In case you didn't understand what I was getting at, WORD-FM programs for the Christian community. WAMO-FM programs for the African-American community. 3WS programs for the Oldies Fan community. 1250 and 970 AM both program for the sports fan community. All of those stations give their "communities" a reason to turn them on. But none of those "communities" are defined by geography.
Two isolated examples of two small towns (Butler and Tiffin) bucking a trend successfully doesn't disprove the facts of the trend. A few isolated examples of a few radio stations getting lucky with a small town approach doesn't prove that small town radio will automatically succeed in every small town that tries the same techniques.
I rest my case.
Huh?!?!? You made no case to rest.
L
lash
Guest
Realist: We've done great small market radio 12 times so far. How many success stories do you need? [EDIT]
[personal attack]
[personal attack]
Radio_Realist said:
Realist...let me make this simpler so that even YOU can understand. You say I made no case to rest. You failed to even make a fact-based case in your own argument.
A few isolated examples of a few radio stations getting lucky with a small town approach doesn't prove that small town radio will automatically succeed in every small town that tries the same techniques.
Nor does keeping things as they were and pining away for the good old days, which you're famous for. I'm talking about young, innovative, out-of-the box thinking that's going to make the difference. People do it every day. I can bore you to death with examples, but it would get me and this topic moved off the air.
As I said in my earlier post, "When dealing with mass market attitudes of thousands or tens of thousands of people, isolated examples are meaningless."
HOW are they meaningless, Realist? Where do you get off saying that? Are you saying then that 'niche' programming for radio doesn't work? If you honestly believe that, then why are "Jack" stations and others of that ilk still on the air?
As I said, "people are increasingly identifiying with their "community" as defined by common interests, not common geography. That doesn't mean everyone jumps to the new paradigm all at once. It only means that a trend has been in process for some time now. People are tending to identify more with being part of "the ______ community", where the word in the blank is some socio-economic group like gay, straight, single, married, Christian, athiest, soccer fan, punk music, oldies fan, biker, etc."
That's applicable to major market radio, not small market, thus the same mentality doesn't fit every town.
R
Radio_Realist
Guest
Nor does keeping things as they were and pining away for the good old days,
Pining away for the good old days? That would be clinging to the romantic model of small town America patterned after Mayberry, North Carolina, or maybe River City, with its notorious pool table.
The small town mentality that everyone who clings to the outmoded model of "serving the local community" radio keeps describing as the way things are is the disappearing "good old days" reality that is almost gone. Sure, some backwoods states like Tennessee and Arkansas have more little towns that are a little slow in keeping up with today's trends. I don't know how many times I have to acknowledge that this is an incomplete process that hasn't reached every corner of the country yet before people keep mentioning the last few examples of quaint little towns that are still clinging to the old paradigm as proof that these changes aren't really happening.
Are you saying then that 'niche' programming for radio doesn't work?
Nope. I'm saying that niche programming is about the only thing that does work. But the "niche" isn't defined as people who happen to live within a given geographic region. I'm saying that "niche" (aka "community") is defined by common interests and lifestyle choices.
That's applicable to major market radio, not small market, thus the same mentality doesn't fit every town.
"Small markets" that are defined by geography are not yet extinct. But they are on the endangered species list. The same mentality not only doesn't fit every town, it seldom fits any town. The number of towns in which there is any sort of commonality of attitude and opinion based purely on the geographic residence in that town is diminishing rapidly. You clearly missed my point when I mentioned how the Pittsburgh market has steadily increased in radius, swallowing up independent communities and turning them into neighborhoods within the urban metroplex one-by-one.
It's an obvious process, or should be to anyone who isn't blinded by an unwillingness to let go of old, 19th and 20th century models of human group behaviour. Allegheny County is filled with neighborhoods that used to be separate communities. Even though we cling to outmoded municipal government structures, the simple truth is that as one moves from Brookline through Dormont into Mount Lebanon along West Liberty Avenue, those three separate communities are no longer true, bone-fide "communities". They are merely arbitrarily defined sections of one unified whole.
Those few small towns that haven't yet been swallowed up by the nearest major urban center and turned into similar sections of a larger, unified whole will still meet the same inevitable fate. Just because the FCC's rules of licensing are rooted in an obsolete past regarding these doomed small towns, that doesn't mean that the process doesn't exist. If anyone is having any level of success in these last few remnants of an dying era by clinging to the idea that they are serving a community that is defined by nothing more than a common, shared ZIP code, enjoy it while you can. It won't last much longer.
why are "Jack" stations and others of that ilk still on the air?
Because they serve the needs of the community that is defined by sharing a common liking of hodge-podge assortments of random music. Formats like "Jack" are perfect examples of what I'm talking about. They serve a niche (which is a synonym for "community") that is defined by something other than residence in a particular geographic space.
And don't be fooled into thinking that because a station's on-air rhetoric claims "We're serving Small Town City" that the claim should be taken literally. One of the best small-town stations I know of, WJPA, doesn't serve Washington, PA. It serves all oldies fans who are within range of it's transmitter, except when it is serving the needs of minor league baseball or high school sports fans who are within the range of its transmitter. It doesn't provide diddly-squat in the way of serving the needs of people who live in Washington, PA who don't like listening to oldies, minor league baseball, or high school sports. I won't dispute that WJPA throws out some news and information that such people might like hearing. But no one will convince me that people will sit through 25 minutes of music that they don't like just to hear five minutes of a locally read newscast that might have 30 seconds of Washington, PA news.
Pining away for the good old days? That would be clinging to the romantic model of small town America patterned after Mayberry, North Carolina, or maybe River City, with its notorious pool table.
The small town mentality that everyone who clings to the outmoded model of "serving the local community" radio keeps describing as the way things are is the disappearing "good old days" reality that is almost gone. Sure, some backwoods states like Tennessee and Arkansas have more little towns that are a little slow in keeping up with today's trends. I don't know how many times I have to acknowledge that this is an incomplete process that hasn't reached every corner of the country yet before people keep mentioning the last few examples of quaint little towns that are still clinging to the old paradigm as proof that these changes aren't really happening.
Are you saying then that 'niche' programming for radio doesn't work?
Nope. I'm saying that niche programming is about the only thing that does work. But the "niche" isn't defined as people who happen to live within a given geographic region. I'm saying that "niche" (aka "community") is defined by common interests and lifestyle choices.
That's applicable to major market radio, not small market, thus the same mentality doesn't fit every town.
"Small markets" that are defined by geography are not yet extinct. But they are on the endangered species list. The same mentality not only doesn't fit every town, it seldom fits any town. The number of towns in which there is any sort of commonality of attitude and opinion based purely on the geographic residence in that town is diminishing rapidly. You clearly missed my point when I mentioned how the Pittsburgh market has steadily increased in radius, swallowing up independent communities and turning them into neighborhoods within the urban metroplex one-by-one.
It's an obvious process, or should be to anyone who isn't blinded by an unwillingness to let go of old, 19th and 20th century models of human group behaviour. Allegheny County is filled with neighborhoods that used to be separate communities. Even though we cling to outmoded municipal government structures, the simple truth is that as one moves from Brookline through Dormont into Mount Lebanon along West Liberty Avenue, those three separate communities are no longer true, bone-fide "communities". They are merely arbitrarily defined sections of one unified whole.
Those few small towns that haven't yet been swallowed up by the nearest major urban center and turned into similar sections of a larger, unified whole will still meet the same inevitable fate. Just because the FCC's rules of licensing are rooted in an obsolete past regarding these doomed small towns, that doesn't mean that the process doesn't exist. If anyone is having any level of success in these last few remnants of an dying era by clinging to the idea that they are serving a community that is defined by nothing more than a common, shared ZIP code, enjoy it while you can. It won't last much longer.
why are "Jack" stations and others of that ilk still on the air?
Because they serve the needs of the community that is defined by sharing a common liking of hodge-podge assortments of random music. Formats like "Jack" are perfect examples of what I'm talking about. They serve a niche (which is a synonym for "community") that is defined by something other than residence in a particular geographic space.
And don't be fooled into thinking that because a station's on-air rhetoric claims "We're serving Small Town City" that the claim should be taken literally. One of the best small-town stations I know of, WJPA, doesn't serve Washington, PA. It serves all oldies fans who are within range of it's transmitter, except when it is serving the needs of minor league baseball or high school sports fans who are within the range of its transmitter. It doesn't provide diddly-squat in the way of serving the needs of people who live in Washington, PA who don't like listening to oldies, minor league baseball, or high school sports. I won't dispute that WJPA throws out some news and information that such people might like hearing. But no one will convince me that people will sit through 25 minutes of music that they don't like just to hear five minutes of a locally read newscast that might have 30 seconds of Washington, PA news.
L
lash
Guest
Moderator? Hardly a personal attack!
I live in Mayberry R.F.D. and here, and thousands of other small towns, radio is done correctly. The big boys certainly could learn from us.
Today the NAB again asked for the ownership rules to be relaxed by the FCC. They went on to say that it isn't changed, that local news would go by the wayside.
What? Is the world really this stupid?
I live in Mayberry R.F.D. and here, and thousands of other small towns, radio is done correctly. The big boys certainly could learn from us.
Today the NAB again asked for the ownership rules to be relaxed by the FCC. They went on to say that it isn't changed, that local news would go by the wayside.
What? Is the world really this stupid?
R
Radio_Realist
Guest
thousands of other small towns
There used to be tens of thousands of "other small towns".
Soon, there will be hundreds of "other small towns".
The "good old days" are gone (or at least, going quickly), and they're never, ever coming back. Enjoy those last remaining pockets of yesteryear while you can.
There used to be tens of thousands of "other small towns".
Soon, there will be hundreds of "other small towns".
The "good old days" are gone (or at least, going quickly), and they're never, ever coming back. Enjoy those last remaining pockets of yesteryear while you can.
L
lash
Guest
You really need to jump in your and get our of PA every now and then. Small town radio is alive and well all over the place.
R
Radio_Realist
Guest
You really need to jump in your and get our of PA every now and then.
I do that from time to time. But, since this is the Pittsburgh board, what happens in other cities isn't all that relevent in here. And, from what I've heard, satellite feeds are satellite feeds, voice tracks are voice tracks, and canned, fill-in-the-blanks formats are canned, fill-in-the-blanks formats, no matter how large or small the city that is home to the tower is. A Jack or Bob station in one town is pretty much a clone of a Jack or Bob station in any other town.
It's like eating at a McDonald's franchise. It's the same where ever you go.
I do that from time to time. But, since this is the Pittsburgh board, what happens in other cities isn't all that relevent in here. And, from what I've heard, satellite feeds are satellite feeds, voice tracks are voice tracks, and canned, fill-in-the-blanks formats are canned, fill-in-the-blanks formats, no matter how large or small the city that is home to the tower is. A Jack or Bob station in one town is pretty much a clone of a Jack or Bob station in any other town.
It's like eating at a McDonald's franchise. It's the same where ever you go.
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