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The Declining state of radio and your opinion why...
- Thread starter Jeff Michaels
- Start date
It's there already, split between three stations: WHTT, which plays 70s pop and some rock; 97 Rock, which plays a massive amount 70s rock; and Jack, which plays 80s, some 70s and 90s pop and rock. Add the 25-54 shares of these three stations and the total probably would exceed KB's 1977 shares. Oh my! In a few weeks, 1977 will be 35 years ago. Was the first Boston album really that good? Nothing better come down the pike since Rumours? And as good as Whole Lotta Love once was, even seasoned rockers might want to hear some Robert Plant with Alison Krauss. Buffalo could use a good Album Adult Alt station that plays new music by commercially viable artists and bands.Bob1370 said:
Element9 said:
That's a subject for another thread, that we've been talking about in the Alt Rock board. The problem is there hasn't been many new "commercially viable artists and bands" in this genre, because the labels haven't invested the money, and because they don't know how to do A&R any more. So they throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall, and you end up with lots of artists each with their own small fan bases. That works when your income is based on filling 100 seat clubs. It's not good when you're running a radio station in a market with a half million people. You end up with a 1 share.
On this we agree "A". They are in survival mode also, and spending on the technologies that spell success for them...need I repeat again........MP3, ipod, downloads, cable, internet... ok I won't repeat it
Trickle down...new problem for radio....
TheBigA said:
Let's see a link to a survey that says that. MTV? Really? They don't even play music anymore. You're makin' stuff up.
SirRoxalot said:
The MTV generation means people who grew up on MTV when it played music. They are now about 40.
Take a look at local playlists in a handful of markets. Your choice which markets. How many local songs do you see? How many variations in playlist contents do you see from market to market? They're not only playing mainly the same songs, but at the same frequency. And ownership isn't the issue.
Interesting article on Radio-Info from Sean Ross:
http://www.radio-info.com/programming/programming-music/ross-on-radio-the-local-hit-lives
The reason that there are so many similarities in playlists from market to market has EVERYTHING to do with ownership. The pressure to conform to the national "suggested" list is enormous. You'd BETTER be right, or you risk being replaced. In the current environment, few PDs are willing to take the risk, or spend the time justifying their pick to their "format captain" when they're programming multiple stations.
There's more dissimilarity in recurrents and older songs if music testing is done locally. That's becoming less and less common, and the list of songs tested often comes from corporate. How many songs are never tested? How many times do the same songs get tested over and over and over? It ain't research. It's justification for what's being played. The most common good information is finding out when a song has burned to a crisp.
http://www.radio-info.com/programming/programming-music/ross-on-radio-the-local-hit-lives
The reason that there are so many similarities in playlists from market to market has EVERYTHING to do with ownership. The pressure to conform to the national "suggested" list is enormous. You'd BETTER be right, or you risk being replaced. In the current environment, few PDs are willing to take the risk, or spend the time justifying their pick to their "format captain" when they're programming multiple stations.
There's more dissimilarity in recurrents and older songs if music testing is done locally. That's becoming less and less common, and the list of songs tested often comes from corporate. How many songs are never tested? How many times do the same songs get tested over and over and over? It ain't research. It's justification for what's being played. The most common good information is finding out when a song has burned to a crisp.
SirRoxalot said:
Only if you compare stations owned by the same company. But there's no reason for WYRK to duplicate the playlist of a CC country station, or a Cumulus country station. Yet when you look at the playlists, they are virtually identical. The way to really prove what I'm saying is then look at the playlist of an indivdually-owned country station, one that's not owned by a big company but a small owner, and you'll see what I'm saying is true.
Silkie said:
Refreshing comment. Wish I'd have thought of saying it first.
Uh-oh! Someone's dragged QUALITY out onto the carpet and I just tripped over it.jfrancispastirchak said:
We're still not quite on the mark, and it's not just about radio.
The opportunity for the EXERCISE of quality is declining. Let's not define quality; that is a spiral.
OR, changing values result in youth being able to see diminished value, so as to decide in advance not to become
a high quality master buggy-whip artisan.
It's not a bit different now from my case in 1982, when I earned the degree aimed at graduating only a very few, but the best
rf broadcast engineers, while at the same moment, requirements for such engineers were eliminated.
Do you suppose it was fun to decide I had no choice but turn my back my true love?
Yes, I could have moved and done very well on a path many know well.
Multi-move lifestyles were discussed at VTI, but I had decided about 1966 that I was going to live in Chicago.
In radio, you don't just "decide" that you're going to live in any big city, with a real house unless you are already
enjoying some $ rewards of the skill/luck/talent thing.
Any immediate oportunity for that absent in radio, I went into industrial process control, and have at least maintained my life here
for the past 24 years.
I still see most problems/analysis in terms of rf behavior, analog behavior/digital modeling in PLC industrial control.
That is where I have been able to find an oppurtunity to use a radio skill to do something where achieving higher quality
by some miracle is worthwhile. I see this opportunity declining everywhere as each step is better quantized and defined,
simply permitting less opportuity to accept the possibility for something big to happen. ( As in talent. )
Nothing 10 feet tall can happen on a floor with only 7 feet of reality.
If you can "come in" at 15 feet, they'll knock out a floor to make a 20 foot level for you.
But gosh, that's right off into the whole 99% movement thing so I'll drop that, right?
Chicago like many older and eastern US cities, with unions, etc, have a very generational thing where you
gotta know somebody, and if your're not 3rd generation you might as well be a new immigrant as far as plum job choices.
So admit that radio is dying by a business model that eliminates useless parts until it is simply non existant.
RF is candidly admitted by so many as redundant.
Radio is dying as an oraganism (many separate jobs) model, because the dissemination of knowledge has evolved.
Not only that, but radio has, for market model "success" and profit, devalued the best advantages of broadcast rf.
Radio may survive, but perhaps only when a generation discovers that at the end of individual discovery is still disconnectedness.
They may then long to share what radio brought when so many were separate, yet knew they ( and so many others)were focused upon the same thing in the same moment.
That's what's been lost. Not the the live and local that's so often discussed. What's gone is focus on the live moment.
Do you do what you do for the love of it?
No business will survive without some measure of this.
When there's precious few people around to even run a station, it's ever harder to achieve a level where quality/care/attention/love can make a difference.
B
Bob1370
Guest
Silkie says, "Radio isn't declining. The quality of the generation entering radio is."
Don't blame the kids, don't blame the young pros trying to do their best on the mike.
Blame their bosses, the quality of a lot of the current generation of ownership and top corporate management in commercial radio is the problem. You find more and more people who are beancounters, who don't regard radio as any different from any other retail or service business, and worry only about the bottom line of the moment rather than anything to do with the quality of what they do or how well they serve their customers (the listeners and the advertisers--they're both a station's customers, since when you fail the listener you fail the advertiser as well).
You can tell the stations and groups with a more traditional, do-it-right approach. They're the ones that are stable, profitable and growing.
Don't blame the kids, don't blame the young pros trying to do their best on the mike.
Blame their bosses, the quality of a lot of the current generation of ownership and top corporate management in commercial radio is the problem. You find more and more people who are beancounters, who don't regard radio as any different from any other retail or service business, and worry only about the bottom line of the moment rather than anything to do with the quality of what they do or how well they serve their customers (the listeners and the advertisers--they're both a station's customers, since when you fail the listener you fail the advertiser as well).
You can tell the stations and groups with a more traditional, do-it-right approach. They're the ones that are stable, profitable and growing.
Let's face it. Most of the best and brightest are smart enough to know that radio's not a path to riches and rewards. I see a few dedicated young people trying to navigate the corporate environment, hoping that they'll stand out enough to be one of the survivors. That part hasn't changed in my lifetime.
What has changed is that there are far fewer people willing to take that chance, and even fewer that are willing to stick it out long enough to have a real shot. Worst of all, there are few opportunities for them to learn their craft the only way that's really effective - in the field under the tutelage of good talent mentors. That's the only way I've seen to really develop the variety of skills required on the big stage.
What has changed is that there are far fewer people willing to take that chance, and even fewer that are willing to stick it out long enough to have a real shot. Worst of all, there are few opportunities for them to learn their craft the only way that's really effective - in the field under the tutelage of good talent mentors. That's the only way I've seen to really develop the variety of skills required on the big stage.
Bob1370, the only thing I would really blame bosses for is keeping and making excuses for keeping driftwood on a board, driftwood that has no intention of being a dignified professional. It is a trade-off for having to pay a real professional. In small, nothing, nowhere markets it can be a problem when that driftwood happens to be a jealous little lackey groupie who has no business being on a board with a microphone, and couldn't make it in real markets.
They get in with people with access to information technology - even in governments - and start prying into the lives of people, whether those people are in or out of their state. It is a problem that eventually gets dealt with, but in the meantime anyone they have latched onto is marked by their misuse and downright abuse of the microphone.
Radio is not declining, some of the generation that is being put on cheaply is killing it.
They get in with people with access to information technology - even in governments - and start prying into the lives of people, whether those people are in or out of their state. It is a problem that eventually gets dealt with, but in the meantime anyone they have latched onto is marked by their misuse and downright abuse of the microphone.
Radio is not declining, some of the generation that is being put on cheaply is killing it.
B
Bob1370
Guest
Silkie says, ..."the only thing I would really blame bosses for is keeping and making excuses for keeping driftwood on a board, driftwood that has no intention of being a dignified professional. It is a trade-off for having to pay a real professional."
Couple of things...first, can you site specific, and conspicuous, examples of this? Second, how does it explain the jettisoning of real professionals who've brought success to their stations and enhanced those stations' competitive positions, for no apparent reason other than to save a penny and pocket a couple of fiscal quarters' worth of profits before the ratings and revenue plummet--as we're seeing as a result of cutbacks in markets from Syracuse west to San Francisco? (And we know the markets and stations I'm thinking of here, no need to be redundant.)
Couple of things...first, can you site specific, and conspicuous, examples of this? Second, how does it explain the jettisoning of real professionals who've brought success to their stations and enhanced those stations' competitive positions, for no apparent reason other than to save a penny and pocket a couple of fiscal quarters' worth of profits before the ratings and revenue plummet--as we're seeing as a result of cutbacks in markets from Syracuse west to San Francisco? (And we know the markets and stations I'm thinking of here, no need to be redundant.)
I was not referring to professionals, but to the trade-off in place of a professional. I do not consider a professional to be a lackey groupie, a control freak on a power trip who happens to have access to microphone for a paycheck. That is not a professional. The operative term in your opening question is "conspicuous".
There you have it. Rox hits another bullseye. I had several mentors WILLING to pass on what they knew. I appreciate them all to this day (in fact everyone I worked with back in the day was willing to impart their personal takes on their "success" ;D
That has been gone too long now..in that the only mentoring now is in how to dust off the server unit.
HDBG
Somebody give me a map so I can follow this convoluted back and forth. Bwahdahell?
Look. A lot of talented people have been sent packing. Just today for example, Dan Formento was given the heave-ho by Cumulust. Formento has been in radio in some capacity, mostly in a national setting, for 35 years. Hardly "driftwood" or excess baggage. Seasoned, quality engineers, jocks, production, promotions and traffic people have been pink slipped in markets large and small by Clear Channel, Citadel-now-Cumulus and other companies. To call these people slackers, ne'er-do-wells, labor-fakers, shirkers, extra baggage, bad or old air talent only makes the person doing the calling look like a fool or worse, a shill.
As to the young turks getting into the business or trying to make a name for themselves? Bravo for you! Go nuts. Yes, there are some inexperienced men and women on the air, some in large medium and even major markets. To me, they sound undeserving. But hey, give 'em credit. For whatever reason, they got the gig. Keeping it by virtue of sounding good and improving on the air is another thing. But we're in an era where (young) listeners (especially in CHR formats) aren't judging air talent by whether they can talk up the intro to the post, hit the vocal or correctly pronounce jewelry (JEW-el-ree) or realtor (REAL-tor). If you're over 35, this stuff may be important, especially in news-talk formats. If you're under 30, it's mostly about content, using social media and in some cases, being the biggest geek-clown-ash hole on the radio station, thereby making the most of making a name for yourself in what may be a limited amount of time.
So. If a young jock (under 25) is producing the $6 million dollar man morning show, voice-tracking one station later in the day and doing a live shift too, he's just trying to make a name for himself within the company and among listeners. And the GMs and PDs love guys and ladies like him because he works cheap. He's good for the company. And the jock is taking advantage of an opportunity that some SUNY Brockport, Fredonia, Oswego grad would kill for. Maybe Mr. Young-turk-dj-producer-voicetracker will get "Employee Of The Month" and score some nice trade out bennies too. But he's just as likely to one day find himself on the cut list, staring at the GM or PD and hearing the words, "It's not personal. It's business."
If that happens, Mr. Young-turk-dj-producer-voicetracker should consider himself lucky. He gets to live another day. In another line of work, he might suffer a severe but short term headache or forced to try on an extremely tight necktie. If somebody is 26, making barely above minimum wage (total weekly hours multiplied by 7.25), he/she should seriously... seriously learn another trade while he/she still has that $23k per year gig.
Oh yes. There are those here who will advocate becoming your own boss and creating your own special content. You could be the next Paris or Perez Hilton. Consider that option too, because after all, EVERYBODY will want to read your blog and watch your sh*t on You Tube. Just like everybody wants to read your (and yes, my) tripe here on this board. One thing should be said, I know that only about 27 people read these boards. Okay, on a good day like when BigAte and SirRox counter punch through eight rounds, maybe 37. Or when MidnightSkulker, NeedsMoreCowbell, Debaser or X13thFloorRand make a special appearance. Oh yeah, or when Heydey writes one of his Andy Rooney like observations. BTW, where's TeslaCoil? Anybody seen him on the other boards?
Some radio people would be stunned to find there are private sector industries and businesses that offer rank and file employees (not only the CEOs, COOs and CFOs) quality health and medical benefits and decent, affordable family health care plans that provide payment without a $3 thousand deductible. There are businesses that offer full or partial compensation to employees who pursue post graduate degrees. There are businesses that pay mileage and offer child care and family sick time. Sure, it's fun being in radio. You get your ego stroked by listeners, clients, sometimes even managers. Sometimes you score the big money gig. But even then, when it's all said and done, the radio business resembles acting and professional athletics: the performer always dies twice.
Look. A lot of talented people have been sent packing. Just today for example, Dan Formento was given the heave-ho by Cumulust. Formento has been in radio in some capacity, mostly in a national setting, for 35 years. Hardly "driftwood" or excess baggage. Seasoned, quality engineers, jocks, production, promotions and traffic people have been pink slipped in markets large and small by Clear Channel, Citadel-now-Cumulus and other companies. To call these people slackers, ne'er-do-wells, labor-fakers, shirkers, extra baggage, bad or old air talent only makes the person doing the calling look like a fool or worse, a shill.
As to the young turks getting into the business or trying to make a name for themselves? Bravo for you! Go nuts. Yes, there are some inexperienced men and women on the air, some in large medium and even major markets. To me, they sound undeserving. But hey, give 'em credit. For whatever reason, they got the gig. Keeping it by virtue of sounding good and improving on the air is another thing. But we're in an era where (young) listeners (especially in CHR formats) aren't judging air talent by whether they can talk up the intro to the post, hit the vocal or correctly pronounce jewelry (JEW-el-ree) or realtor (REAL-tor). If you're over 35, this stuff may be important, especially in news-talk formats. If you're under 30, it's mostly about content, using social media and in some cases, being the biggest geek-clown-ash hole on the radio station, thereby making the most of making a name for yourself in what may be a limited amount of time.
So. If a young jock (under 25) is producing the $6 million dollar man morning show, voice-tracking one station later in the day and doing a live shift too, he's just trying to make a name for himself within the company and among listeners. And the GMs and PDs love guys and ladies like him because he works cheap. He's good for the company. And the jock is taking advantage of an opportunity that some SUNY Brockport, Fredonia, Oswego grad would kill for. Maybe Mr. Young-turk-dj-producer-voicetracker will get "Employee Of The Month" and score some nice trade out bennies too. But he's just as likely to one day find himself on the cut list, staring at the GM or PD and hearing the words, "It's not personal. It's business."
If that happens, Mr. Young-turk-dj-producer-voicetracker should consider himself lucky. He gets to live another day. In another line of work, he might suffer a severe but short term headache or forced to try on an extremely tight necktie. If somebody is 26, making barely above minimum wage (total weekly hours multiplied by 7.25), he/she should seriously... seriously learn another trade while he/she still has that $23k per year gig.
Oh yes. There are those here who will advocate becoming your own boss and creating your own special content. You could be the next Paris or Perez Hilton. Consider that option too, because after all, EVERYBODY will want to read your blog and watch your sh*t on You Tube. Just like everybody wants to read your (and yes, my) tripe here on this board. One thing should be said, I know that only about 27 people read these boards. Okay, on a good day like when BigAte and SirRox counter punch through eight rounds, maybe 37. Or when MidnightSkulker, NeedsMoreCowbell, Debaser or X13thFloorRand make a special appearance. Oh yeah, or when Heydey writes one of his Andy Rooney like observations. BTW, where's TeslaCoil? Anybody seen him on the other boards?
Some radio people would be stunned to find there are private sector industries and businesses that offer rank and file employees (not only the CEOs, COOs and CFOs) quality health and medical benefits and decent, affordable family health care plans that provide payment without a $3 thousand deductible. There are businesses that offer full or partial compensation to employees who pursue post graduate degrees. There are businesses that pay mileage and offer child care and family sick time. Sure, it's fun being in radio. You get your ego stroked by listeners, clients, sometimes even managers. Sometimes you score the big money gig. But even then, when it's all said and done, the radio business resembles acting and professional athletics: the performer always dies twice.
SirRoxalot said:
BS. There are thousands of former broadcasters, and many have found work at local colleges and even some high schools, where they teach and mentor future broadcasters. There are professional internship programs. And there is absolutely no reason why the out of work broadcasters can't volunteer to mentor young people. There are also professional talent mentors for hire. I know of several right now. They not only work and develop young talent, but they use their connections to get them jobs. I'm not kidding. No shortage of opportunities to learn the craft if you're willing to look and invest in yourself.
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