The Declining state of radio and your opinion why...

[chas108]

Chas, thanks for your words. Yeah, I looked at our map and we reach 13 counties in Upstate NY. If you look back a few pages, you'll see what I played Sunday, Is that more like what you remember from your old station (WIII)?

I saw the list...Vandenberg "Burning Heart", f'r example...haven't heard that since I played it in early '83 at WKFM (now WBBS) before going to OK-100 (now WIII).

Emerson Lake & Palmer's "From The Beginning"...there's a 'KB flashback. Deeper cuts combined with some titles/artists perhaps tainted by overplay in pop formats. To hear them in their original Rock context sounds fresh to me.

I feel like you're taking some chances here - but that's precisely the utility of good small-market radio - the ability to go deeper than we can here in the larger markets. Believe me we've tried! Only when you build a rep for music curation and discovery can you even attempt to veer off the beaten path...even then, veer too much and your AQH drops.

Upstate NY is a great Rock...now Classic Rock area. Between the Can-Con (Saga, Rush, April Wine, Loverboy, Triumph, etc.) and local bands such as Duke Jupiter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ5vUhGv1Fg, there was a unique mix of music...much of it even splashed over to the Top 40's.

Here's my favorite Saga tune - we played all 6:00 of this at Top 40 OK-100: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ZN0wXrEwU

At one time there was no question about whether a great segue constituted art. The answer was yes.

Today, diary maintenance techniques have rendered the question all but moot, since you go song-sweeper-song-sweeper etc. However, I'm in a PPM market and the cold segues are back, sometimes 3 an hour - a lot for a current music, personality -driven Country format like my current station.

To A's retort that "Playing music owned by record labels is not content creation", I respectfully counter that what you do with that music becomes a part of your content creation. Themed sets...artist sets...great segues...I remember such content as part and parcel of good Album-Oriented radio many years ago. No reason why you can't be doing that stuff today, especially in your situation.

I'm often on the air myself at 6PM Sunday, sometime when I'm not I'll have to stream your show.

 

[Tom Wells]

Sweepers kill continuity. Liners must be weightless, clear the palate for the next element and no more.
Sometimes the music must flow, sometimes it MUST stop.
That's what you pay a HUMAN BEING to decide, in order to do it best.

 

[Jeff Michaels]

Chas, My countdown will be at 6pm (At least that is their original plan, they may change their minds, who knows)

My regular shift is 1pm-5pm for now and when the countdown begins, they'll extend me to 6pm. No sense in having one hour of automated other DJ and then me again. Then again, they may do me 12-5 and then the countdown from 5-9. Who knows...

I'm glad you liked the mixture. I strive to play things that are not usual.

We take requests during my shift and I am allowed to remove songs that come up for other things. In my time there, almost every week Don't Stop Believin has come up and I've replaced it.

If anyone here listens and wants to call in a request, I'd like that. I love to play to my audience. Its a bit harder than when I did mobile DJ'ing to read your "crowd". As long as we have it, and we have alot, I'll play it. I'm working on the PD to see if the service can add more and replace the damn edit versions.

What I don't understand is that we have:
Do You Feel Like We Do: 14 min
Funeral For A Friend/Love Lies Bleeding: 11 min
I Heard It Through The Grapevine: 11 min
Green Grass And High Tides: 10 min

but we have edits of songs that don't even break 5 minutes in their longest version...

(Let It Ride by BTO, 25 Or 6 To 4 by Chicago, Black Betty by Ram Jam etc...)

3 of the 4 long songs I listed do have shorter edit versions... NOT THAT I WANT TO PLAY EDITS! Classic Rock is about the long version. I just don't understand the logic behind having over ten minute versions of songs and then editing a song already relatively "short" Of the songs I listed, Chicago has the longest song of them at 4:53.

 

[Jeff Michaels]

And what is with all the simulcasting?

A perfect example of a ridiculous one is Wease on 95.1 The Fox, and WHTK, SPORTS TALK 1280AM and 107.3 FM. Does he really need to be on THREE stations with the same exact content at one time?

There are a TON of other options and it has to hurt ratings to do this.

 

[Element9]

I'd be the last person to defend simulcasting for the sake of simulcasting. At least three Classic Hits formats and two Classic Rock formats in the market creates a large mid-pack. But this is 12+ and one station's 3.5 could be perfectly centered 35-49 while another station's 3.5 could be all 55+. The frequencies that simulcast Wease aren't flamethrowers that generate big shares, at least according to the 12+ ratings posted.

Could there be a unique, community oriented format for a Docket 80-90 and/or a 5 kW AM? Perhaps Hispanic? That might yield a share, maybe two.

But a "ton?"

Take a look at the latest Rochester 12+ and break it down. I'm genuinely interested and would like to be enlightened. As a newcomer to these boards, you can give the rest of the board a chance to evaluate your programming strategies. We welcome fresh ideas.

( After all, we're all PDs and GMs [/sarcasm] )

There are some interesting anomalies in the Rochester Summer 12+. WYRK Buffalo scores a 1.8. As if Country fans are looking for an alternative to market leading WBEE. And out of the blue, WDNY scores a 0.9, besting WYSL and WBTA. Apparently south Livingston county generated a few diaries.

 

[Jeff Michaels]

My idea for Hot Talk 1280AM would be to develop their own local sports talk show. God knows sports fans love to talk sports and call in to shows, Imagine if it is a local host? With local connections and willing to actually spend more than a few minutes on the Bills and The Sabres? In addition to also talking alot about the other teams not in the area?

I'd say a show similar to one I was a part of in the mid 90's at college as well as recently online...

The show would center around sports. Local sports would also get coverage. Having even college or High School athletes as guests would be awesome!

Getting a Yankee and Red Sox fan, Sabres & Bruins, Bills & Dolphins would make for good radio. They could fight amongst themselves in addition to with the callers about which team reigns supreme. Shooting for a mixed bag of people would help. A woman on the show who knows her sports stuff would make it even better. Maybe have a host on the show 40+, 30's, and 20's in addition would make it more attractive to the audience.

The show we did also had the occasional music, TV, movies talk (Usually when there was a slow sports day).

If they are a bit edgy, that may also work, but not to the point of turning off the people who are easily offended. Having one member a bit edgy with the others not so edgy to bring the balance would work.

 

[Element9]

Interesting. For a day or two for the twenty three people who might find it entertaining. Look at Buffalo-Niagara Falls Persons 12+ and scroll down to WGR. Deduct at least a share because Rochester doesn't have a major sports team. Then consider what WGR's Shopp and Bulldog did on WROC. In Buffalo, they light it up during Bills and Sabres season. In summer? Crickets. Friendly reminder: the Bills and Sabres have the word "Buffalo" in front of their names. Yankees - Red Sox? Sure, their fans care... when they're winning. Local sports? Maybe good for a share. Little Joey's father in Greece may be proud of his budding point guard, but the rest of the Rochester MSA?

 

[Jeff Michaels]

I think many would like the show idea. For a while too. Many in the area love all sports, be it Baseball, Football, Hockey, Basketball, Nascar, etc...

Having it be local guys may keep it interesting to people.

I don't like him but John Ditullio gets alot of callers on his show and he's one person. Imagine an entertaining crew of guys and a gal?

 

[Bob1370]

John DiTullio at WHTK may be getting as much out of the Rochester market as it can give any sports host or station, because of the nature of the market.

We are lacking some things that most markets with strong sports stations have--a major league pro team or two (with the play-by-play it brings the station carrying it) and/or a big time Division I college team, either men's football, men's basketball, or both. Buffalo has the pros, plus a college football program at UB that's growing gradually toward the big time. Syracuse has major college basketball and football. Both those towns have sports radio stations that make a significant dent.

That's why sports radio in Rochester underperforms even what the format does in markets of roughly similar size. Content is king, and we're missing the kind of team that causes the talk.

 

[Jeff Michaels]

I agree and I don't.

I agree because with a local pro team, we'd get huge numbers for a show...

I disagree because with the right host or hosts/format of show, I think the fact that many local people like the Yankees, Red Sox, Twins, Bills, Steelers, Browns, Sabres plus college sports that it'd work well.

I know we're not NYC or LA, or even Syracuse or Buffalo but I think the right host/hosts/format would draw numbers.

 

[umtrr-author]

A multi-part comment...

On sports: The question is whether Rochester has "enough" local sports talk with what it already has. My anedoctal non-scientific data point: the few times I've attempted to call into Bob Matthews' show on WHAM it's taken a while to get through, when I do. (True, that's callers, not necessarily listeners.)

I doubt that I would become a major listener of sports talk; I'm not one now and I don't think more becoming available would change my mind.

On the Rochester 12+ ratings: Wow, that's a lot of stations being classified as "classic hits".

On WARM's playlist: I am not a dedicated listener (for music, I like North Coast 105.9 too much, not just saying that because Lee is on here!) but I have noticed a definite move away from "soft" rock. The average (and proabably mediam) age of the songs they play still is in the double digits, but we are hearing a few more things from this century.

 

[Jeff Michaels]

On WARM: I have no problem with them playing older music and newer music. Just so long as its what they say it is, Soft Rock and 60% of the time, it's not.

On WJZR: I love the station, I just wish they'd play more smooth instrumentals. Not a big fan of the more traditional stuff and some of the vocals are just awful. But I do enjoy the station. I also wish they'd play occasional classics... for example, even though Deodato had mostly fusion-ish things, he had some softer tunes, even has a new one with Al Jarreau, haven't heard it yet on the station.

 

[Paul_Warren]

...Local sports? Maybe good for a share. Little Joey's father in Greece may be proud of his budding point guard, but the rest of the Rochester MSA?

Even local high school sports can have a place in the art/commerce mix, especially if little Joey's dad has some disposable cash and chooses radio ads in the broadcast over buying a banner on the wall in the end zone.

Some of the most entertaining sports listening happens when the game (even a blowout between two who-cares teams) becomes the bread and the PBP and color guys build the rest of the sandwich. There's no reason that can't happen in a smaller market, even if it's not at the level of Dennis Miller on MNF. And if you can generate net revenue at night on a station targeting 35+ during the day, I think you deserve to be cut a lot of slack.

 

[GeneSavage]

2 more of my cents:

I had a lady 6 hours away voicetracking a midday shift in 2001. She poured over the local websites for this part-time gig. Her content was AMAZING, with all those plugs you guys are saying an out-of-market jock "can't" do. She talked about the concert last night, the great county fair coming up this weekend, the difficulty getting around town because of road construction... it almost creeped me out... I asked her finally, "you aren't ACTUALLy in town... ARE you???" She laughed and explained what her "eyes" and "ears" in town were: the local web sites.

BigA and I have gone toe to toe before, but one thing I'm pretty sure we both agree on: listeners really AREN'T paying that much attention... we in radio have believed people do, and a very, very small percentage do. They are pretty evenly divided between other radio people, and those over the age of 65... and they're not big enough of an audience to build a radio station around.

One more story: A local alternative rock / dance club owner in the late 80s saw his floor packed with 100 - 200 fanatical followers every weekend. He bought a local AM/FM combo and created magical radio with the DJs from his club. The music was wildly varied, and almost all of it very interesting (to me). Each jock had different tastes, did every shift live, featured some cool local bands, and generally did everything I hear suggested in this thread.

I'm not aware of the stations COMBINED cracking a 0.1 in the ratings books. They failed miserably, and were sold.

A local legendary top 40 / rock programmer once remarked to me about this "shooting star" in the radio heavens:

"You can't run a radio station based on 150 listeners. It does not matter how fanatical they are."

I hated what he said... but he has been proven right again, and again, and again.

The local utilities do not care how cool, or live, or local your station is. If you do not have the money to pay the electric bill, you will be shut down.

You can love "great" radio; I certainly do! I miss Paul Harvey every day. (A national, often tape-delayed personality, BTW.)

However, the term "starving artist" is a term us "radio purists" risk having applied to us. And once the transmitter is off because "stupid" advertisers wouldn't buy commercials on our "awesome" (but unrated or minimally rated) station and the electric company pulls the plug, NOBODY gets to hear how "clever" we are.

P.S. - Radio stations I've worked at over the past 10 years have ELIMINATED the art of the segue. It is "safer" to have the computer segue (however much like a car crash it may sound 9 out 10 times) than to risk some human hitting it too soon or too late... or not at all.

I got into radio in part because I loved the art of the segue. I was exceptional at it, if I do say so myself. I got high praise for my shifts and some jocks on remote refused to let anyone but me run their boards. I've been told I have a good voice, but honestly I could go without talking if you'd just let me "build" a music flow.

My talent has gone the way of horse and buggy makers. I can play at home, but it is of absolutely zero value to any potential employer.

...And has the audience revolted? I dunno... when's the last time you got a phone call from a listener (who wasn't in radio themselves) complaining about a segue?

ME NEITHER!

 

[SirRoxalot]

This ain't rocket science, people. There are different stations for different audiences. One size DOESN'T fit all.

There's one thing that's true in market after market, though. Better radio draws more listeners. In most markets, the stations at the top of the ratings heap usually have the most live and local content, and programming that is tailored to the local audience. There's talent required to make this happen, and that talent rarely is in another section of the country.

Is it possible to VT effectively? Sure, if you do your homework, and tailor your show to a particular market. Is that what syndicated radio does? And if you do your homework, and do all the research to make a show sound good on VT, shouldn't you get paid at least minimum wage for doing the research that goes along with tracking the shift? And that still doesn't solve the problem of immediacy. There's nothing worse than somebody chirping along on VT when something momentous has happened, either locally or nationally.

BTW, Night, I've seen a lot more radio jocks who could also bring it in clubs than club jocks who had a clue about radio. They're very different venues - similar to the differences in audiences between movies and TV. One is a shared experience by a large group of people. The other is a much more intimate one-on-one relationship. And, yes, there are radio jocks who simply can't entertain in front of people - which is probably why they got into RADIO.

BTW, I miss great segues. They were - and are - an art. Does the radio audience miss them? Probably not, because they don't realize that they're not hearing them. They can't tell you why radio isn't as good as it one was, but they recognize that it's not. They can't identify missing segues, poor music flow, and train wreck transitions, because those things aren't in their vocabulary. But if someone points it out, they "get" it instantly. Radio has a subliminal component, and modern radio is too often subliminally saying "quality doesn't count".

 

[TheBigA]

There's one thing that's true in market after market, though. Better radio draws more listeners. In most markets, the stations at the top of the ratings heap usually have the most live and local content, and programming that is tailored to the local audience. There's talent required to make this happen, and that talent rarely is in another section of the country.

And yet, when a station looks to hire talent, they often bring in people from another section of the country. I see it in market after market. Stations want the best people, not the ones who happen to be most convenient.

Then when you look at the relationship of talent to programming, 85% of the programming is coming from recorded music, and that programming is chosen by a PD with input from a regional programmer and a consultant, not the talent. Regardless of where he is, the talent isn't the one picking the music or tailoring it to the local audience. It's nice when the people ARE local. There's a role those local people play in terms of representing their brand and interacting through social media and other things. But it's a fairy tale that the talent people hear are drawn from the local community, and that the talent has anything to do with the programming the listeners hear.

 

[Silkie]

There are some stations in smaller non markets that really need to just load the tray, lock the playlist in place, tear the knobs off and require certain air staff to work with it or get out.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Gee, weren't you the one recently talking about how talent needs to get out and interact with the audience, build relationships, do lots of promo, shake hands, kiss babies, and build a relationship? Just how to you do that when you're three time zones, or five states away?

When people come from another section of the country, it takes a considerable amount of time and effort to acclimate. I'm sure that I'm not the only person that cringes when somebody says "the EEEEVANGOLA exit from the Thruway". Mispronunciations are the tip of that iceberg.

Good programmers listen to input from local talent when it comes to music programming. I can't tell you how many arrogant morons have bounced through this market alone with little success because they didn't listen to input from locals with a wealth of experience when it comes to music and programming. 97-Rock is one of the highest rated stations in its format in the country. A lot of that has to do with the fact that it doesn't sound like a generic Classic Rock station, and there's a lot of special programming to break up the monotony of "the list" chosen by the "regional programmer and consultant". I have to give Fred Jacobs his due. Fred was always willing to listen to local input when it came to deciding what music to test. Without local input, there's a lot of Can-con that's big in Buffalo that's simply not on the radar screens in SoCal. Fred will be missed.

Your lack of understanding on how good music stations are programmed is probably why you're such a big proponent of syndication and national programming. We know you hate talent. Apparently, you either don't understand or don't respect programming talent either. Locally influenced radio isn't a fairy tale, but corporate cookie-cutter programming certainly is a nightmare.

 

[TheBigA]

Gee, weren't you the one recently talking about how talent needs to get out and interact with the audience, build relationships, do lots of promo, shake hands, kiss babies, and build a relationship?

That's me. In fact, I just said it again, in my previous post:

It's nice when the people ARE local. There's a role those local people play in terms of representing their brand and interacting through social media and other things.

The catch is that typically, the big name talent, the ones the listeners know, won't interact with listeners because they don't want to "mingle with the maggotry," as The Greaseman once said. That attitude is what killed the need for local talent. The wound was self-inflicted.

Your lack of understanding on how good music stations are programmed is probably why you're such a big proponent of syndication and national programming. We know you hate talent. Apparently, you either don't understand or don't respect programming talent either. Locally influenced radio isn't a fairy tale, but corporate cookie-cutter programming certainly is a nightmare.

Do you want me to go through the list of well known talent for whom their current format is not their expertise? Talent gets hired for its talent, not its musical knowledge. The station hires experts to handle the programming.And the programmer doesn't pull an airshift. That may not be the case in the one format you seem to know, but it is the reality everywhere else. And it has nothing to do with "corporate." It's been done for 40 years.

 

[TheBigA]

We know you hate talent. Apparently, you either don't understand or don't respect programming talent either.

Just to clarify, I don't "hate talent." I don't respect lazy talent. I don't respect self-involved talent. But I respect GOOD talent, because they do what I can't. Any good programmer respects good talent. And vice versa. But a good programmer also recognizes the limitations of the local market. Listeners don't need talent to tell them what music to like, especially when that talent doesn't know the genre. Listeners don't need talent to talk about their vacations on the air, or what they did the night before. Local talking points are limited to weather, traffic, and perhaps local sports or a major local news story. Beyond that, it doesn't matter.

Good entertainment isn't strictly local. Performing venues are filled with national touring acts who seem to be making a good living taking their talent to local markets. Every town has its local version of Led Zepplin who perform cover songs at the local bars. But we all know and respect the original. Local radio talent has become the local cover band, doing its version of familiar material, but not particularly original. Anyone who's judged radio talent contests will tell you that only a handful of local talent are actually original, and do original material. The rest could be replaced with someone better, if they were available. Now, they are.