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The downward trend of New York's urban stations

It's been stated that hip, hop is on the decline but from what can be deciphered, urban radio as a whole is in decline at least in market no. 1.
Interesting to see in a city where urban music is bursting at the seams. The downward decline of urban radio baffles me.

Seems WBLS, the only station that made any sort of programming tweak as of late reaped the benefits at the cost of WRKS.

POWER and HOT....steadlily sinking.
 
I hope that 98.7 hasnt changed thier format,last i knew they were still Smooth R&B and Classic Soul (No hip hop garbage)
 
We could be seeing a national trend here. The Urban and Rhythmic stations did not do well in the Philly PPM ratings. Urban stations are below their normal range in DC, Baltimore, Cleveland, and St. Louis.

The only difference is that in those other markets it's hip hop stations trending down while Urban AC is generally strong. In NY all the urban stations were down.

It will be interesting to see if this trend continues as the Winter books roll out. If urban stations keep going down is it hip hop itself that is in decline or are hip hop fans getting their music from other sources than radio?
 
is it hip hop itself that is in decline or are hip hop fans getting their music from other sources than radio?

Both. After a brief period of crossover acceptance with whites, it fell out of favor there about three years ago.

While all record sales are down Billboard reports that rap/hip-hop showed a decline of some 33%, twice that of other genres. With a collapse of this order it is not surprising that radio stations catering to this sector would show similar reduction.

With the black audience the situation is alittle more complex. "Hip-hop" was marketed as a lifestyle and there was/is alot of peer pressure to conform, there also hasn't been much else happening on the black music scene for some time. It's been a favorite with record companies, not out of taste considerations (I have two friends at Sony Music and one indie premoter, their opinions of hip-hop aren't much) but because it was simply a reliable formulia. Look at the product, videos and recording, all virtually identical, this is allways indicative of a fad that is peaking.

Hip-hop skews toward the youngest end of the spectrum and here music delivery has changed dramatically from radio to personal media such as I-Pods over the last five years. However the traditional disparity of income between whites and blacks has slowed this transition with blacks by limiting purchasing power and access to computers. They are now catching up, i see a near equall number of blacks/whites with MP3 players and that, along with the general stagnancy in black music has probably contributed to the radio declines we are seeing.

LIno
 
LinoNYC,

>>>Both. After a brief period of crossover acceptance with whites, it fell out of favor there about three years ago.<<<

If this trend continues, rap WILL go the way that Doo Wop did in the mid 60's.

Have you noticed the same White kids that were into Rap two years ago are now into Hardcore Metal which is even louder than Heavy Metal.That's going from one extreme to another.



Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
 
While all record sales are down Billboard reports that rap/hip-hop showed a decline of some 33%, twice that of other genres. With a collapse of this order it is not surprising that radio stations catering to this sector would show similar reduction.
(quote)

Just to clarify, the 33% reduction in album sales was for the first quarter of 2007 (as compared to the first quarter of last year), while rap/hip hop album sales declined by 21% for the whole of 2006 (while overall CD album sales were down by 13%).
 
Kevin L. Sealy said:
Have you noticed the same White kids that were into Rap two years ago are now into Hardcore Metal which is even louder thanHeavy Metal. That's going from one extreme to another.

I got two words for them: Vanilla Ice
 
As with any genre, anytime you oversaturate the market with ONE style of a music that is as diverse as the people that grew up on it, it will play itself out.

I can't begin to count of all the quality hip-hop acts over the last 25 years that stretched the confines of creative social commentary and eclectic instrumentation whose airplay was limited to college radio or publicly funded radio. Ten to fifteen years ago, I always had arguments with people both in and outside of the radio industry concerning this matter and in true assembly-line fashion, their rebuttle was that "underground hiphop" is a niche market. In other words, The Roots nor De La Soul can't bring in those McDonald's accounts like Young Jeezy.

Who's sorry now? Thanks to this bastardization of hiphop, all that's left are a bunch of so-called Urban ACs that pretend hiphop had NO such beginnings rooted in social consciousness, pretending that they don't have masters from 20 years ago when early hiphop allowed them to be the heritage Urban stations they are today.
 
Have you noticed the same White kids that were into Rap two years ago are now into Hardcore Metal which is even louder than Heavy Metal.That's going from one extreme to another.

Kevin, to be honest, Neither I nor my friends in the recording industry
have been able to discern the "next big thing".

I have noticed alittle of the heavy metal stuff at locations near the Queens/Nassau border but not here in the city.
It's possible that with the demographics of the city now and the extreme fragmentation of media and the rise of personal media, we may not get another mass fad.

It would be kind of sad if rap were the last of them.

As for "one extreme to another" either genre is consumed by the youngest who are looking to make their presence felt and piss-off some adults. In that regard, one source of noise is as good as the next.

Lino
 
Of course there will be a "next big thing". The problem is that the people in the industry (Lino, no disrespect to you and your friends...) are being reactive. Hip Hop was a no brainer. It had its own energy and momentum. Just like teen sensations of the 60's, hair metal of the 80's, ect. The audience drove the demand and when the demand was there, the industry jumped on board and rode the wave until it died a painful death. The audience will determine what the next move is going to be. Hardcore Metal? Probably not. Way too compartmentalized and not enough of a "lifestyle." Lets face it - it doesn't have the mass appeal that hip hop did. Also, a little too loud. Punk - already done. Would have been bigger if it wasn't the stepchild to hip hop. Indie? Whatever that is these days, once it does get mass appeal it's no longer indie and the fans hate it.

Look to the spanish stations to find the next big thing. The white (and black) audiences have become segmented and compartmentalized by the industry. The latino audience has not (at least to the extent of the former). This is what I hear from my "friends" in the business.
 
But here's the Urban Station list that we want to keep and to be needed for:

Hot 97 (Old Skool Hip-Hop and R&B from the '80s and '90s)
98.7 Kiss FM (Classic to Today's R&B Music)
Power 105.1 (Today's Hip-Hop and R&B)
107.5 WBLS (Today's R&B)
1190 WLIB (Gospel Music)
 
Look to the spanish stations to find the next big thing.
[/quote]

Didn't we already endure a "latin explosion" during the late '90s?
 
Andrew J. Gladding said:
Look to the spanish stations to find the next big thing. The white (and black) audiences have become segmented and compartmentalized by the industry. The latino audience has not (at least to the extent of the former). This is what I hear from my "friends" in the business.

Fragmentation is in proportion to the number of stations. Mexico City has 62 full signal stations, and there are more formats than in any US market.
 
First of all, Z 100's numbers are up in the city, LI and NJ and most of Z's playlist is hip hop/r&b "lite"; they have simply incorporated hip hop into hip pop, stealing the younger and whiter segment of that audience, while the pop side of hip hop is turning off all the 'keep it real' folks;
second of all, due to the death of the commercial retail single, the sales of which steered trends in top 40 for decades, there will never again be a next big thing...ever..
so get over it and get used to it...the party's over
 
Andrew thanks for the reply, there are some points that I take issue with, probably most of which is due to a difference in our ages (I'am 50).

Hardcore Metal? Probably not. Way too compartmentalized and not enough of a "lifestyle." Lets face it - it doesn't have the mass appeal that hip hop did

To say this ignores the entire Seattle grunge era of the late '80s -mid '90s during which time it morphed into the softer "alternative" sound. Some of that later style has re-emerged popular today, but not enough to be considered a trend.

. Punk - already done. Would have been bigger if it wasn't the stepchild to hip hop.

Here is where age difference may be playing a role in perception. Punk was never a "stepchild" of hip-hop, it first gained popularity in the UK mid-70s, never had any commercial success here and about the only correlation I can think of, is that punk's "peak" here was 1979 -the year rap was said to have emerged from the burning ghettos of the Bronx.

You may be thinking of the later "Grunge" and the brief rap-rock fusion of the late 1990s.

Look to the spanish stations to find the next big thing. The white (and black) audiences have become segmented and compartmentalized by the industry. The latino audience has not (at least to the extent of the former).

The white and black audiences have diverged due to issues of taste and ability to now program one's favorite music and never have to be exposed to styles you don't care for. I sell music via over two dozen jukeboxes in the NYC and NJ, I see 14-17K plays/wk, rap never sold well to whites and rock-alternative never did well in black areas. From the late '50s through the late '80s there was alot of crossover, in the early 1990s the black music industry began to focus on the hip-hop sound and the two groups diverged.

Yes, I know that its claimed that white kids bought the bulk of rap product, but you have to remember two points here: First, this was mostly limited to white kids living in isolated suburbs where the attraction of the "big bad" inner city has allways had appeal. It also occured after grunge had burned-out and these kids were looking for something else to torture their parents with.

Second: This era conincided with the rise of both home CD burners and filesharing, any retail sales figures from the early '00s-on are unreliable as indicators of popularity.

Look to the spanish stations to find the next big thing. The white (and black) audiences have become segmented and compartmentalized by the industry. The latino audience has not (at least to the extent of the former).

This is an intesting area to me personally as I have many close Mexican nationals as friends. Untill the last 2-3 years most of the latin roots music here in the northeast was from the carribean via P.R. and Dominican Republic. Most Mexicans sort-of adopted this, atleast for radio listening, when they arrived here. Now however CD burning, internet listening and filsharing are changing that and Mexicans are able to access more of their own preferrences. It appears that this is beginning to be reflected in radio listening habits aswell.

All of this adds up why I and those I know in the recording-promo industry are wondering if there will ever be another major trend.

Lino
 
I know this may be a little off topic, and many of you like to judge me based on my screenname, but i do listen to hip-hop as well. I must say here on LI, its the opposite. 101.7 WBEA the beat has taken a impressive jump in numbers, They mix alot of the old hip hop with the new and some top 40 hits. Maybe this is an idea, but i know that the trend seems to be up on Long Island. Just my 2 cents.
 
What about another format

Maybe Black people are tired of the same 10 songs over and over again. There is a whole genre of music "Neo Soul" that is never okay very rarely played on regular radio. Everyday I listen to Neo Soul Cafe when I'm home and XM in the car. I couldn't tell you the last time I listened to Kiss or WBLS unless I have no choice. The music sounds nice. It's a mix of slow songs and fast songs. A little positive rap (Common). Would it have any chance??

Target 21+ groups. Educated Black college students. Try a higher demo and see if it would work.
 
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