These are the songs you hear in church

[gr8oldies]

As U.M.s I think we're a little "suspect" in the evangelical community. There is an independent church that has a big sign visible from the interstate that says "Welcome to the end of your search for an old fashioned church". A bit wordy, but having never been there, the mental picture that comes to mind is a church with hard pews, a simple piano or maybe an organ, a shouting/screaming fire and brimstone preacher, and certainly no screens or Power Points. I could be wrong.

There are traditionalist movements in every religion. I have a friend who belongs to a Latin Mass Only Catholic Church. I've read some literature from groups like that, and they are just as convinced that everything that happened since Vatican II is wrong and one dare not show up at a post-Vatican II church lest the fires of Hell prevail.

 

[anotherguyTN]

I don't have a problem with churches who want to stay traditional and I can worship in a traditional church even though I prefer contemporary or blended worship. The only thing that bothers me is when a church's leaders use their platform to attack more modern forms of worship and make them out to be inferior, or even worse, from the Devil.

There is one thing that the churches that advertise themselves as being King James Only do that I'll give them credit for. At least I know right up front that I won't be considering them when I'm looking for a church.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

The only thing that bothers me is when a church's leaders use their platform to attack more modern forms of worship and make them out to be inferior, or even worse, from the Devil.

There is one thing that the churches that advertise themselves as being King James Only do that I'll give them credit for. At least I know right up front that I won't be considering them when I'm looking for a church.

Keep in mind that at some point worship and music do get too dull, too rigid. Identifying that point may be difficult.

Could I suggest to you that at some point maybe things can get beyond reasonable in the other direction. Identifying that point is equally difficult.

The focus of this discussion group is music and radio. But while we are on this tangent I must point out that if you will do some searching of blogs and Worship Discussion Groups there is a term that is being kicked around. Worship Babes. Google it for yourself. At some point even those who are enthusiastic about contemporary worship recognize that some churches cannot tell the difference between a Praise Team and Las Vegas Showgirls.

Anything to win one more for Jesus. Anything to increase the attendance. If that means tantalizing the guys into coming to church so they can oggle the good looking babes, bring it on.

Some where someone has to draw the line. I will leave that to the pastors and elders of the churches who worship that way.

And I guess we will have to leave with the pastors and elders of the ultra traditional churches to realize when they have made worship so rigid, so dull that it becomes ineffective.

In the meantime the great majority of us continue to function somewhere between those two extremes and we simply keep fine-tuning what we do.

 

[R.D.P.]

Since I come from a Presbyterian tradition, I see nothing wrong with a Church service being Contemporary.  Now with that being said, I want to share an experience I had at one.

A few years ago, my own Church tried to have a Contemporary service.  The person that led it had been expelled from a Church in Georgia due to various issues (Fornication) and when he came back to my hometown, he wanted to have such a service.  We gave it a try but it failed.  Most of the established members had issues with the service and with the man that was leading it.  During the time of the service, I went to help support it but after this guy started bragging about the things he had, I up and left from it.  After I left, the service fell apart and never returned.  

Liked some of the music we were singing and tried to get into it but discovered that most of the P&W stuff came from very unbiblical backgrounds anyway and after a season, I ditched that collection and got rid of it.  Like our friend Mr. Bruce Carter, I detest P&W music now and only listen to music that has meat and potatoes in it. This does include the music that R.C. Sproul sells on his awesome web site.  

Now for some other tidbits about my Church.  We aren't KJV only but out of respect for the majority of our members, my Preacher choses to read from the KJV.  If he could, he would use his NKJV instead.  For years now, we've sung out of the Trinity Hymnal and it hasn't changed.  This newer edition we use now, does have some CCM songs in it but out of respect to our older members, the leaders chose not to sing those songs.  I've hinted that we sing some of those songs but so far it's fallen on deaf ears. My Church isn't anti-CCM but many of the members do have issues with this musical style and I'm not too crazy about that. Even had one person to tell me that CCM is demonic and I need to reject it, during a recent conversation we was having.  Although I've fallen in love with traditional Gospel, I still listen to the more Biblical CCM performers. (Some examples include: Steve Camp, Michael Card, Smitty, dc Talk, Keith Green, Larry Norman, Selah, Russ Taff, The Imperials, Kim Boyce, Bruce Carroll, Casting Crowns, Natalie Grant, David Meece, Cindy Morgan, Rich Mullins, Sandra McCracken, Derek Webb, Caedmon's Call and Jeremy Camp)

R.D.P. <><

P.S. And yes I'm a life long member of a Bible believing PCA Church.  Been there since my birth.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I wonder how some would have held up sitting in the pasture while a young shepherd boy wrote and sang the songs that came to his heart, with the simplest of stringed instruments.

Lets see - Psalm 150:
- Trumpets
- harp and lyre
- timbrel and dancing
- stringed instruments and pipe
- loud cymbals
- resounding cymbals

Sounds a lot like a pretty noisy praise band to me, complete with dancing for joy. Perhaps - you might want to look up what happened to Michal when she complained about David dancing for joy before the Lord.

This debate about Christian music really IS as old at the church. I think those who seek to constrain ALL churches and Christian stations to their narrow taste in music - be it CCM or hymns, southern gospel or acapella - well, it is more about POWER OVER OTHERS than it is about what is right and not right before the Lord. The same type of desire for power that satan had - to become god instead of serving God. The same type of power - that evil men desire to have over women - I've seen the "worship babe" post. REALLY offensive - since when is it a problem for a woman to be attractive? Taken to extreme, we have the Taliban repressive rules about how women should dress. That, too, is about POWER over people, in this case women, as opposed to what is right and wrong before the Lord. If the problem with attractive women is in the eye of the beholder, they better get a handle on the sin of lust in their own life before they start spouting off that type of garbage in a public forum like this. And if they have a problem with CCM on the radio or in church, they better examine their own motivations to control the worship of others - and place themselves in a higher position than God - before they criticize the act of worship in Spirit and Truth taking places in a worship setting or in another person's heart. That is for God to judge, and for the believer to work out their walk with the Lord between themself and the Lord.

 

[quadraphonic]

This could just be one of those "needs more cowbell" things. Cause our choir could definitely use more of that!

 

[Silkie]

Like I said previously, we are all going to sing a new song anyway. The Lord will straighten out our Christianity when we get home.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I've seen the "worship babe" post. REALLY offensive - since when is it a problem for a woman to be attractive? Taken to extreme, we have the Taliban repressive rules about how women should dress. That, too, is about POWER over people, in this case women, as opposed to what is right and wrong before the Lord. If the problem with attractive women is in the eye of the beholder, they better get a handle on the sin of lust in their own life before they start spouting off that type of garbage in a public forum like this.

The Bible does talk about modesty, etc. There are some women who show up at some churches dressed like high priced call girls. Yes, they are attractive, but the church is not a night club. They aren't supposed to be trying to have every male eye on them as that is NOT what they should be going to church to do so it isn't appropriate for church. Also, the Bible talks about not causing your brother to stumble or fall into sin as in eating meat offered to idols, etc. Dressing provocatively in church is to possibly cause some men to stumble into sin as Jesus did say it's a sin to look at a woman with lust in your heart. Obviously, this doesn't mean women should dress like the Taliban or like a nun, but showing clevage, etc, isn't modest dress, so there is a balance somewhere between dressing like a Franciscan Nun and a Call Girl.

 

[Silkie]

And then there is that little matter of the harlot who showed up for supper at the Pharisee's house.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The Bible does talk about modesty, etc.

Of course I am not advocating that women go to church dressed like sluts - and believe me I've seen a few. They usually either don't come back, or change their attire on their second visit.

On the other side of the issue - going back 25 years, Kathy Trocolli was on the cover of CCM magazine. It was primarily a head shot, the barest hint of cleavage showing. I found nothing wrong with the picture, and thought her top quite modest. But a preacher at a mega-church lit into poor Kathy, embarrassing her greatly. I remarked to one of his staunch followers that I thought if he was obsessing that much over the picture, he may have a problem with lust - because people tend to react to the thing they have a personal problem with. Needless to say, that young man was angry that I would call his idol a potential pervert. Two years later, the guy fell very publically. His name? Jimmy Swaggart. Darn I hate it when I'm right. And Kathy? Celebrating 26 years of faithful ministry: http://www.kathytroccoli.com/

 

[Silkie]

And then there is that little matter of the harlot who showed up for supper at the Pharisee's house .

She came just as she was, and washed our Lord's feet with her tears, dried them with her hair and anointed them with costly oil. Men like those who are posting on this thread said the same thing about her.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I believe some of you are missing the greater point. A non-believer, someone's who's heart hasn't been born again (literally meaning born from above) hasn't been changed from the inside, they don't get it at all. A non-believer who comes to church probably won't get or even will repel against the more modest dress style that most of the other women are voluntarily following (I've never been to a church that had rules for proper dress, but somehow most believing women seem to know what appropriate dress is for church).

As your heart gets transformed by the Holy Spirit and your walk with Christ grows, you begin to realize that YOUR personal rights count for less than doing what's better for OTHERS. In other words you start putting others needs ahead of yours. This is in direct contrast to our American thinking and heritage of being free to do as I well please. We have freedom in Christ also, but as we are to love others we also then tend to consider how our actions will affect, help, or hurt others, or be a stumbling block to someone.

About the harlot who showed up for supper at the Pharisee's house, she was a seeker, so she came as she was and had an encounter with Christ. The Bible doesn't tell us more about her, but once her heart had been changed, my guess is, her style of living and dress changed dramatically without anyone saying a word to her, just as the Tax Collector, we know as Matthew, who stole (by over taxation) the people's money without a thought, in fact saw no problem in what he was doing, but after his encounter with Jesus, his style of living, his heart changed where he gave back all he stole plus more and then followed Jesus in his ministry.

There are spiritual baby's who's walk hasn't grown to where they are putting others needs ahead of their own as they demand their own rights (go to a church board meeting and you'll know what I mean). We all, (none of us is exempt) sometimes fall into this as it is very easy to slip into the flesh and not live in the spirit. We all need to guard our hearts from allowing "the world" to pull us into its ways as we are to be in the world not of the world.

 

[anotherguyTN]

Some Pentecostal denominations and also some Independent Baptists do try to dictate a woman's dress both inside and outside the church. Usually the rules are long dresses or skirts, and no pants, because they're supposedly "Men's clothes", and also extends to no jewelry or makeup in some churches. I remember hearing Dr. J. Vernon McGee answer a question once where someone asked if it was a sin for a woman to wear makeup, and he asnwered "Sometimes I think it ought to be a sin for some women NOT to wear makeup!" ;D

Some Pentecostal women will also wear their hair piled on their heads in what a pastor from the Baptist church I grew up in referred to as a PHD - Pentecostal Hair Do.  ;D  They would put out a woman who showed up in pants, but some of them apparently see nothing wrong in dressing in loud or flashy suits or dresses, that to me could be considered immodest, even though they're totally dressed. And some of the same ones who will claim someone is "in sin" for the way they dress say nothing about their own sometimes morbid obesity.  :

Churches that try to push the idea that everyone has to wear suits and dresses are something else that will very likely cause me not to consider them in looking for a church. I'd rather see someone come in a t-shirt and jeans that is truly there to woship than some that is all dressed up and leaves the impression they're trying to show off their clothes.

Granted, there are times that a line needs to be drawn in what someone wears to church, but that needs to be done on an individual basis, and not in a way that would embarass them or repel them from coming back. And suits or dresses vs. t-shirts and jeans is NOT where that line should be drawn.

 

[Silkie]

... Love is patient, love is kind. it is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, love does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, love does not take into account a wrong suffered, love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.

Just a little food for thought while we take the spiritual temperature of others. Granted, there are those who will never find the truth or the light of day, and we must leave the dead to bury their own, as it were. But the woman who showed up with cleavage also came to church seeking. Did she find, or was she told that her dress was inappropriate before she was gossipped about on the boards?

 

[skippertthomas]

Great point Silkie! When someone on our Christian Sponsored and Christian World View College Campus happens to be a non-Christian (or Believer) wearing something in the 'gray or red' zone (by school standards), we don't scream at them and demand a public repentance where they stand, but, try to explain in a one on one fashion that they might consider something less offensive (to many)... We had a South American gal come into our family last year who did not know it was offensive to many to show her butt crack when wearing her running pants... No major problem or trip to the Dean's office.... She was asked if she could pull up the pants by a male who said that would set his mind going in the wrong direction! She smiled and thanked the student who she expressed was 'looking out for her best interests'.... When my Dad was on the Administration in the 60's and 70's one Ministry major thought the 'Preacher Boys' should wear shirt and tie and carry a King James under their arm! Dad softly explained to the 'downhome' student that if it took that to prove or show your witness, it would be a sad testimony... "Be yourself in Christ and let HIM transform you from the inside out!" I've seen more of our 30 to 40 % of the non-Christian kids on our campus come to Christ with the firm and kind hand of Jesus' love... No forced Chapel, yet it's packed each week... More questions are asked to the Christian kids about Faith..... Christian kids tend to admit when they fall short of their convictions... That realness helps the 'wheat' to see The Truth working in our Christian students....

 

[MikefromDelaware]

But the woman who showed up with cleavage also came to church seeking. Did she find, or was she told that her dress was inappropriate before she was gossipped about on the boards?

True story. A number of years ago, I was leading a praise band at a United Methodist church where we did a Wednesday evening praise service. The dress at this service was very casual, jeans, tee shirts, shorts, sandles, etc. The Pastor decided to have our praise band play at one of the Traditional Sunday services. One of my singers showed up in a beautiful dress that she filled very well. If we'd been playing in a night club her outfit would have been perfect. She wasn't a seeker, but grew up in that church, but was young (24) and didn't think about who her audience would be (mostly people over 65 years of age) at that Sunday morning Traditonal Hymn based service. Let us just call them the "frozen chosen" as they didn't like our music either as anything with a beat guitars, drums, etc was NOT worship music to them, but as bad as they didn't like our music, they were even less blessed with her choice of dress. I remember telling her, before the service, that she wasn't appropriately dressed for a church service and that the outfit looks great, but is more appropriate to a nightclub gig not a worship service ( I had a band years ago with a female vocalist that played clubs, etc, before I was saved). We aren't putting on a show, but are hopefully leading the congregation into a time of worship where they are to be focusing on Our Lord. They aren't supposed to really notice us up here leading the music. This isn't the "Christian Tonight Show". She understood, but unfortunately there wasn't enough time for her to go home and change. So as those of you, who've been to a similar type church, where the "frozen chosen" reside, I heard many complaints about the music (which I had tried to tell the pastor when he asked us to do the service, we'd get), and many complaints about this young women's attire. My guess is, they'd have been less put out if she'd been in jeans and tee shirt. So it may seem stupid to some of you, but a praise band, choir, etc, job in the service is to lead people to a worshipful time with the Lord, not change their attitudes about modern dress, etc. That would be for the Pastor to address in some sermons as lead by the Holy Spirit.

Just as when you preach a sermon, know your audience.

Now, I agree that a church shouldn't be jumping down people's throats about what they are wearing, especially visitors and seekes. Frankly, in most churches that's how you can tell a visitor, they aren't dressed like everyone else, be it jeans or a provocative dress.

I'm now a Lutheran and do not dress in a coat and tie, but wear a sports shirt and jeans. As it turns out, most of the congregation at this Lutheran church also dress that way, so it is a very comfortable place to be. Today was Easter and yes many of the women did dress up in beautiful dresses and a number of them even wore fancy hats, but no one, young or old chose to wear any type of dress that showed cleavage. Some folks also came in casual clothes and nothing was said as this is a very cool and comfortable church where people are there to worship Jesus and not give folks a hassle. Many visitors were there today (family traveling from out of town, etc) and none of them either dressed with cleavage showing.

 

[gr8oldies]

God made female bodies. Just what was he thinking?

 

[Silkie]

I would like to know two things:

1. On the Sunday in question, what songs were sung?
2. What was the sermon about?

I'll bet the woman who keeps making you realize that you are alive would know.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

This conversation has certainly taken some interesting twist and turns. We have probably ventured into a few areas we are qualified to deal with.... and I confess that a couple of my posts contributed to getting us into those topics. What was I thinking!

Let me share an anecdote. I worked for some people who got into the hospital business a few years ago when "for profit" hospitals first began springing up. I remember by boss assuring us one day he had finally figured out how people, customers, citizens knew the difference between GOOD hospitals and BAD hospitals. These are people who never got to go behind the scenes. They didn't get to look at the records. They didn't watch the labs or the surgery suites doing their job. It's very simple he said: If they like the food, its a good hospital. If they didn't like the food, its a BAD hospital. After all... they were all experts on food. Thus they felt qualified to judge FOOD.

So what's my point. Most people who attend church are not experts on real, heavy-duty theology. Most people who attend church do not go to board meetings (Deacons meetings, Elders meetings, etc.) Thus they are not experts on the budget, the personnel issues of the rationale of the mission efforts of the church. But like food, everybody who attends church is quite sure they ARE and expert on MUSIC.

Good music equals good church. Bad music equals bad church. What else do we need to know?

So. We are still left with the issue: is there a link between good Christian music for radio, vs. good Christian music for concerts, vs. good Christian music for worship services?

 

[MikefromDelaware]

The music that Sunday that the praise band played was: Shine Jesus Shine and Prayer of St. Francis. Not exactly wild, crazy, music, but they weren't hymns either (the praise music we did at that church, on Wednesday evenings, was from 1966 through 2003 with 95% of that music being the old Hossana/Integrity praise music from the 1970's, 80's. As Goat Rodeo said, people have an opinion on music and believe they are experts on what's good music (one man's music is another man's noise). There are people who are totally tone deaf and believe they are experts on music and what is good music.

My final comment on the topic of dress: 1 Timothy 2:8-9 NLT (New Living Translation) St. Paul says: In every place of worship I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy. And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.

I realize that scripture can open up a gigantic discussion, but as dressing for church isn't the topic of this thread and isn't remotely related to radio and I did contribute to getting us off topic with my comments, I too want to get us back on topic. I only post the scripture verse to show where my point of view came from and realize that we'll just have to agree to disagree on its meaning and get back to the actual radio related topic we should be discussing.

Getting back to the actual topic, as Goat Rodeo Cowboy suggested, of is there a link between good Christian music for radio, vs. good Christian music for concerts, vs. good Christian music for worship services?


Michael W. Smith has some praise CD's out that, in my opinion would work well in all three venues of being good Christian music for CCM radio, good Christian music for concerts and good Christian music for praise and worship services (wouldn't work in a traditional hymn [organ and choir] service though). However, much worship music might not make for great CCM radio or even as concert music, but is great in a worship service, just as some concert music might make for great radio, but not great for the worship service and so on. I believe this is where the music leader needs to be on his/her knees and seeking the Lord as to what the praise band, choir, etc, is to be doing in the worship service. You as a musical group in church are not just singing songs, but are leading the congregation in worship and there is a difference.