Well this sucks we are staying in Honululu for the week and of all days... 1/15/09 sad day for Analog TV indeed. At 12:00 am last night Analog TV went off but "The Future Of TV Stayed On" that is right DTV (sometimes I think I just want to break the TV every time I see that woman saying "buy a converter box before January 15th or be in the dark." God... what has Martin done to this country...?
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Well another one of Martin's mistakes... Hawaii shuts off transmitters today
- Thread starter eskipper411
- Start date
landtuna said:
You're on a message board where another poster (names omitted to protect him from further embarrassment) actually told us earlier today that his biggest concern about whether or not to go visit his long-distance girlfriend was whether or not he could hear certain CHR stations from her house.
A certain level of obsession is to be expected, I guess.
That said, Hawaii at last check had among the highest cable/satellite penetration in the country - better than 95%, I think. So 19 out of every 20 Hawaiian households was unaffected by this even before the saturation advertising hit.
I'm actually trying to get some status reports out of Hawaii. I heard that 45 minutes after the transition, KITV had received no calls. I heard all but one of the Maui stations transitioned successfully, though that was about two hours ago. PBS is on an LP in Hilo and will transition in two weeks; they're missing some equipment.
In what way is it a mistake? And more importantly, how is it "Martin's" mistake?
- Trip
In what way is it a mistake? And more importantly, how is it "Martin's" mistake?
- Trip
Well Trip, first of he should not have made the transition in the first place. He should have just left well enough alone and watch our ANALOG!!!
Congress decided to do this fifteen years ago. Long before Martin was on the Commish.
tripinva said:
True but supposing you were one of the people who couldn't afford cable and lost all TV.
And for what? So people can have more cell phones. So people can access the Internet while on a bus or subway, or God help us, while they're driving.
TV isn't a necessity but neither are cell phone nor wireless internet. I think since this freed up bandwidth will be used for luxuries that we should've kept analog till we could be sure digital would've replicated it close enough.
Yes I know people say "It'll be used for emergency services," but if you were to take away those cell phone frequencies in use now (which are a luxury) you could use them for emergency services.
It's better that Americans have access to a form of TV rather than a select few who want to be in constanst communication with their BFF. Heavenforbid you should actually relate to the world around you for the half an hour bus trip to work.
Just because something is more efficent doesn't make it better, nor does efficency alone justify anything. Just look at the American workplace from 1880 - 1929. Much more efficent but coldly cruel.
Mark said:
And which people would those be? The poor? Many of the poor have cable or satellite. If a person cannot afford a one-time $60 converter box, not having TV isn't exactly the worst of their problems. Besides, most of the poor live in cities, which have LPTV stations that remain on analog. The rural poor who watch broadcast TV usually get it from translators, which again remain analog.
Necessity is the mother of invention. I expect DTV to have positive side effects heretofore unanticipated.
dhett said:
To use a tired overused quote from Jerry Seinfeld "WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE"
I'm glad that analog TV is going away. I was getting terrible reception in my fourth floor east side downtown Columbus Ohio apartment. I can afford cable but I have to deal with Time Warner and I refuse to deal with Time Warner. Time Warner Columbus wanted 150 dollars to connect me to basic cable. (I do have good credit.)
I have one LCD HDTV (living area) and one LCD EDTV as my bedroom TV. I purchase a converter box for my EDTV because it was a 15 inch screen and it was manufacture December 2006, it wasn't require to have a ATSC tuner.
Now I can get my local ABC and Fox stations with the converter box. Why are these neo luddites protesting the switch. Please sell off your electronics and join a Amish group.
I'm liking the better picture and sound and seeing HD programming in full HD. Not the compress HD feed of Time Warner.
I'm glad that analog TV is going away. I was getting terrible reception in my fourth floor east side downtown Columbus Ohio apartment. I can afford cable but I have to deal with Time Warner and I refuse to deal with Time Warner. Time Warner Columbus wanted 150 dollars to connect me to basic cable. (I do have good credit.)
I have one LCD HDTV (living area) and one LCD EDTV as my bedroom TV. I purchase a converter box for my EDTV because it was a 15 inch screen and it was manufacture December 2006, it wasn't require to have a ATSC tuner.
Now I can get my local ABC and Fox stations with the converter box. Why are these neo luddites protesting the switch. Please sell off your electronics and join a Amish group.
I'm liking the better picture and sound and seeing HD programming in full HD. Not the compress HD feed of Time Warner.
F
FreddyE1977
Guest
yes, this far predates Kevin Martin's tenure at the FCC.
One of the key villains here is Sen John McCain, who could not wait
to see those dark frequencies re-auctioned to parties who had
been lobbying him for decades.
One of the key villains here is Sen John McCain, who could not wait
to see those dark frequencies re-auctioned to parties who had
been lobbying him for decades.
Analog is better? Not for me, it isn't.
I realized just how bad it was on Thursday night, when I dragged out my old VCR, plugged it in, and swept through the local channels during the latest DTV "soft test".
The local NBC and ABC affiliates (3, 5) were plagued with horrible "sparklies", 3 even worse than 5. It's like watching TV through a screen! 8 (FOX) was a little better, most of the UHFs were OK.
The plain fact is this - the massive increase of digital/man-made noise has rendered low-VHF, especially, nearly useless in most areas of most markets. Here, unless you're sitting in Parma or North Royalton or nearby, low-VHF stinks.
Meanwhile, in digital, nearly all these stations - at the same location, with the same indoor antenna - come in like I was sitting in their control room. (I say "nearly" because the NBC affiliate is currently saddled with its own low-VHF problem - RF 2 - which renders it difficult to receive in digital. That'll go away whenever they finish a new tower and move to post-transition RF 17.)
For me, watching OTA, digital IS better. Of course, I'm also one of the 89-ish percent of Cleveland market viewers with cable/satellite, so I only watch OTA on my converter box in the kitchen
As for Mr. Martin, he's just a convenient target. He didn't start the whole idea of the DTV transition, he didn't write it into law. You could make an argument about what the FCC did or didn't do right, but it's not his baby.
I realized just how bad it was on Thursday night, when I dragged out my old VCR, plugged it in, and swept through the local channels during the latest DTV "soft test".
The local NBC and ABC affiliates (3, 5) were plagued with horrible "sparklies", 3 even worse than 5. It's like watching TV through a screen! 8 (FOX) was a little better, most of the UHFs were OK.
The plain fact is this - the massive increase of digital/man-made noise has rendered low-VHF, especially, nearly useless in most areas of most markets. Here, unless you're sitting in Parma or North Royalton or nearby, low-VHF stinks.
Meanwhile, in digital, nearly all these stations - at the same location, with the same indoor antenna - come in like I was sitting in their control room. (I say "nearly" because the NBC affiliate is currently saddled with its own low-VHF problem - RF 2 - which renders it difficult to receive in digital. That'll go away whenever they finish a new tower and move to post-transition RF 17.)
For me, watching OTA, digital IS better. Of course, I'm also one of the 89-ish percent of Cleveland market viewers with cable/satellite, so I only watch OTA on my converter box in the kitchen
As for Mr. Martin, he's just a convenient target. He didn't start the whole idea of the DTV transition, he didn't write it into law. You could make an argument about what the FCC did or didn't do right, but it's not his baby.
Re: Hawaii shuts off transmitters today
I have never felt much sympathy for low-income people (especially students) who complain constantly about a lack of money but blow up to a hundred dollars a month on digital cable or satellite services. Many other low-income people including students rely on rabbit ears.
That said, basic television service should be available to all Americans, regardless of location - even if it is only one channel. There has to be a system of relaying emergency information and so forth to all people.
dhett said:
I have never felt much sympathy for low-income people (especially students) who complain constantly about a lack of money but blow up to a hundred dollars a month on digital cable or satellite services. Many other low-income people including students rely on rabbit ears.
That said, basic television service should be available to all Americans, regardless of location - even if it is only one channel. There has to be a system of relaying emergency information and so forth to all people.
Re: Hawaii shuts off transmitters today
- The closure of analog is a necessary step to get full DTV coverage. Much of the limit on coverage right now comes from the need to protect analog service, and from interference from that analog service. Continuing to keep the analogs in operation will only delay the replication of analog coverage.
- Analog coverage has never been 100%. There may be plenty of translator coverage in the West, but around here they haven't been much a part of the equation. Either you had cable or you had a BIG antenna or you did without.
- It's simply not economically practical to fully replicate analog coverage. That last 2-3% takes a greatly disproportional investment. Back in the 1960s it may have been worthwhile to put a translator in - you didn't have a cable system and two satellite services already providing your signal to most of that audience. (and providing another 100 or so channels to split the audience) We just don't the same TV landscape.
DTV supports the idea of "distributed transmission" but that's still just not going to work economically in a lot of markets.
- TV is a poor choice for emergency alerting. Chances are pretty good your set isn't on when the emergency happens. (this is why I think the famous Clear Channel/Minot, ND incident is a red herring*. So what if all the Clear Channel stations *had* immediately broadcast the emergency alert? How many people were listening to the radio (/watching OTA TV) at 3am?)
This is what the NOAA weather radio network is for. The radios are specifically designed to operate 24/7 and only alert you when something happens.** IMHO leaving analog TV on the air does almost nothing to improve public safety.
- I'm with "OhioMediaWatch", about the relative quality of analog and digital reception. I enjoy DXing in analog, but when I want to watch a program it *will* be watched in digital. (especially on the 4-2 and 8-2 subchannels that aren't available in analog!)
- To pile on(grin), as poor of a job as Kevin Martin has done, responsibility for the decision to go digital indeed lies with Congress.
* not to mention an inaccurate story, from what I've heard.
** unfortunately devalued by crying wolf with statewide Amber Alerts.
- The closure of analog is a necessary step to get full DTV coverage. Much of the limit on coverage right now comes from the need to protect analog service, and from interference from that analog service. Continuing to keep the analogs in operation will only delay the replication of analog coverage.
- Analog coverage has never been 100%. There may be plenty of translator coverage in the West, but around here they haven't been much a part of the equation. Either you had cable or you had a BIG antenna or you did without.
- It's simply not economically practical to fully replicate analog coverage. That last 2-3% takes a greatly disproportional investment. Back in the 1960s it may have been worthwhile to put a translator in - you didn't have a cable system and two satellite services already providing your signal to most of that audience. (and providing another 100 or so channels to split the audience) We just don't the same TV landscape.
DTV supports the idea of "distributed transmission" but that's still just not going to work economically in a lot of markets.
- TV is a poor choice for emergency alerting. Chances are pretty good your set isn't on when the emergency happens. (this is why I think the famous Clear Channel/Minot, ND incident is a red herring*. So what if all the Clear Channel stations *had* immediately broadcast the emergency alert? How many people were listening to the radio (/watching OTA TV) at 3am?)
This is what the NOAA weather radio network is for. The radios are specifically designed to operate 24/7 and only alert you when something happens.** IMHO leaving analog TV on the air does almost nothing to improve public safety.
- I'm with "OhioMediaWatch", about the relative quality of analog and digital reception. I enjoy DXing in analog, but when I want to watch a program it *will* be watched in digital. (especially on the 4-2 and 8-2 subchannels that aren't available in analog!)
- To pile on(grin), as poor of a job as Kevin Martin has done, responsibility for the decision to go digital indeed lies with Congress.
* not to mention an inaccurate story, from what I've heard.
** unfortunately devalued by crying wolf with statewide Amber Alerts.
Re: Hawaii shuts off transmitters today
As I've said when I've brought up digital translators - that'll happen if the station determines it needs to serve that area OTA.
I've identified five areas here on the fringes of the Cleveland market likely to get difficult OTA reception even after the transition, in full-digital. Will any of the local stations decide it's worth it to put in a digital translator to serve, say, Mansfield and Ashland, on the southwest edge of the Cleveland TV market?
My gut feeling is right now, probably not. The bulk of the market will be served - as they always have been - by the facilities all of the local full-power stations have right now in the southern suburbs. The PBS affiliate in Cleveland (WVIZ/25) already has a couple or three analog translators up in places like eastern Lake County and Geauga County - I presume they'll get at least one of those sticks in digital at some point. But as I said, they already had them - and WVIZ doesn't make a big deal about it.
My other guess - at some point, some of these underserved communities (on the edge of digital OTA reception without major antenna help) may put together old-fashioned "antenna cooperatives" like they have out west...I know there are some of 'em in the Sierra Nevada mountains, owned by non-profit community groups, that rebroadcast the Sacramento and San Francisco stations.
In other words, none of this is gonna spring up on its own...either the stations or the locals will have to feel the need is great.
Minot is a small city. Very small. I was actually there once, in late fall/early winter, stuck in an Amtrak station because our train's locomotive needed repair ("Empire Builder").
If the emergency authorities wanted to get the word out about danger quick, instead of wasting time trying to raise a live body at the radio station, they should have driven through the streets with sirens and bullhorns. That doesn't absolve anyone from not being responsive, it's just practical, and of course, from what I've heard, the local police/authorities/whoever did not know the proper procedure for activating EAS, which WOULD have gone out on the unattended stations. (Think: NWS! And speaking of which...)
Congress and the incoming administration should concentrate on two things if they're really worried about public safety notification - 1) allow the option to use the DTV $40 coupon to help pay for a weatherradio and 2) expand the NWS network of radio stations as much as possible to serve areas with trouble getting DTV signals.
Makes too much sense.
And the 3/5/8 combo of network affiliates has become even more difficult to watch in analog here since I was a kid. The man-made electrical interference in 2009 is off the charts, particularly on 3/5, and I'm 20 miles from the Parma TV antenna farm.
And same equipment, same antenna, same location...watching in digital is crystal clear with few problems. I realize YMMV for others here, but that's my own experience.
w9wi said:
As I've said when I've brought up digital translators - that'll happen if the station determines it needs to serve that area OTA.
I've identified five areas here on the fringes of the Cleveland market likely to get difficult OTA reception even after the transition, in full-digital. Will any of the local stations decide it's worth it to put in a digital translator to serve, say, Mansfield and Ashland, on the southwest edge of the Cleveland TV market?
My gut feeling is right now, probably not. The bulk of the market will be served - as they always have been - by the facilities all of the local full-power stations have right now in the southern suburbs. The PBS affiliate in Cleveland (WVIZ/25) already has a couple or three analog translators up in places like eastern Lake County and Geauga County - I presume they'll get at least one of those sticks in digital at some point. But as I said, they already had them - and WVIZ doesn't make a big deal about it.
My other guess - at some point, some of these underserved communities (on the edge of digital OTA reception without major antenna help) may put together old-fashioned "antenna cooperatives" like they have out west...I know there are some of 'em in the Sierra Nevada mountains, owned by non-profit community groups, that rebroadcast the Sacramento and San Francisco stations.
In other words, none of this is gonna spring up on its own...either the stations or the locals will have to feel the need is great.
w9wi said:
Minot is a small city. Very small. I was actually there once, in late fall/early winter, stuck in an Amtrak station because our train's locomotive needed repair ("Empire Builder").
If the emergency authorities wanted to get the word out about danger quick, instead of wasting time trying to raise a live body at the radio station, they should have driven through the streets with sirens and bullhorns. That doesn't absolve anyone from not being responsive, it's just practical, and of course, from what I've heard, the local police/authorities/whoever did not know the proper procedure for activating EAS, which WOULD have gone out on the unattended stations. (Think: NWS! And speaking of which...)
w9wi said:
Congress and the incoming administration should concentrate on two things if they're really worried about public safety notification - 1) allow the option to use the DTV $40 coupon to help pay for a weatherradio and 2) expand the NWS network of radio stations as much as possible to serve areas with trouble getting DTV signals.
Makes too much sense.
w9wi said:
And the 3/5/8 combo of network affiliates has become even more difficult to watch in analog here since I was a kid. The man-made electrical interference in 2009 is off the charts, particularly on 3/5, and I'm 20 miles from the Parma TV antenna farm.
And same equipment, same antenna, same location...watching in digital is crystal clear with few problems. I realize YMMV for others here, but that's my own experience.
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