Well I'm finally giving in and getting paid-for tv after the Digital TV FAILURE

[joesixpack]

I've spent my entire live watching regular, free, antenna tv, where the worst problem was a fuzzy (but still watchable) picture, but ever since the big DTV transition it has been nothing but a frustrating mess. Dropped signals, no signal, pixelated screens, and I've had enough. I can't get all the channels here, and I barely live 30 miles outside of Houston! Some days I'm lucky if I can watch even one channel. If the fan even blows on the antenna, it can cause the signal to drop.

This DTV transition is just one stupid idea in the long line of stupid ideas to come out of Washington.

 

[tripinva]

If the fan even blows on the antenna, it can cause the signal to drop.

It sounds like you are using an indoor antenna. At 30 miles, this is your problem. Investing significantly less money than a cable/satellite subscription in a proper antenna setup would resolve most of your issues.

- Trip

 

[flashback]

i said it before ,in one way or another, and will say it again.

if DTV is causing so many problems in reception that were not there before it was not a good idea to have it replace analog.

things should have been left alone.tv was fine before DTV and if they needed that spectrum they should have had a replacement delivery method that did not be harder to get a good signal.

the main thing i see is with analog 30 miles away reception was fine and with DTV it is constantly a problem.that is not an improvment.

 

[tripinva]

In the coal mining industry, they don't try using a hand shovel to get to coal deposits half a mile below the surface of the Earth, then whine about how much easier life was when everything was powered by horses. They use the correct tool for the job and it works fine.

The same is true with television. If you get a satellite box and chuck your dish randomly in the garage, it's not going to work. It's not a lousy satellite TV standard, it's that you've failed to set it up properly. If you try to use some crappy indoor antenna for television reception at a distance of more than a few miles, it's not going to work. It's not a lousy over-the-air TV standard, it's that you've failed to set it up properly.

There's a small but vocal group of people who I've only encountered on Radio-Info that absolutely refuses to use the proper tools for the job, then runs around complaining loudly about how it's everybody's problem but their own. Is our digital TV standard perfect? No. Are other standards in the world any better? That's a matter of debate, but I know someone in Chile who has the same issues with indoor antennas with ISDB-T that we have in the US, and ISDB-T is widely considered to be a superior standard. As with our standard, outdoor antennas work perfectly fine with ISDB-T.

What is true is that analog TV was horribly inefficient spectrally, and that is why TV all over the world is going digital, not just here. Japan just shut off their analog a few weeks ago, Europe is well on its way to being all digital in most countries by 2013, Mexico by 2015, and even parts of Africa are going digital with their TV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_TV_transition

People often made due with unwatchable reception (like this: http://www.rabbitears.info/0104_H17M21_CH44.jpg ) but since it was the best they could do without putting in any kind of effort, declared it "watchable" and squinted their way through it. Then, when the transition came, well, you know the rest.

- Trip

 

[landtuna]

If you try to use some crappy indoor antenna for television reception at a distance of more than a few miles, it's not going to work. It's not a lousy over-the-air TV standard, it's that you've failed to set it up properly.

While inefficient set up may be the problem for some (especially at 30 miles distant) it is not for me (8 miles line of sight) and I have been having problems since the conversion. I have three indoor VHF/UHF antennas plus a huge VHF/UHF/FM up on the top of a two-story and still cannot receive an analog-quality picture 24X7 on any of them.

Things that only marginally affected analog TV take digital TV down or make it unwatchable. Things like sunlight (yes, the sun), wind (with no dust - wind with dust is even worse) and people walking around the room including in back of the antenna - even in the next room! Morning reception is generally better than evening - probably because the antenna farm is west of my location but at no time is it perfect. Sunset seems to be the most problematic.

UHF freq's work better than the three VHF's in my market and I assume part of that is because of the lowered power levels on DTV. Reception on RF10 is so intermittent that they simulcast on a UHF frequency. That is pretty deplorable.

I consider DTV to be a monumental failure.

 

[Markxxx]

I've spent my entire live watching regular, free, antenna tv, where the worst problem was a fuzzy (but still watchable) picture, but ever since the big DTV transition it has been nothing but a frustrating mess. Dropped signals, no signal, pixelated screens, and I've had enough. I can't get all the channels here, and I barely live 30 miles outside of Houston! Some days I'm lucky if I can watch even one channel. If the fan even blows on the antenna, it can cause the signal to drop.

This DTV transition is just one stupid idea in the long line of stupid ideas to come out of Washington.

I live in Chicago, three miles NW of Willis (Sears) Tower and can't get ANY TV stations. Even when I point my Silver Sensor antenna directly at the top of the Willis Tower with uninterrupted line of site, half the time I can't get signals. Portable TV antennas just do not cut it for digital TV.

As I said before, I can't figure out why I can get all the UHF channels with a silver sensor in some places at 9am and by 3pm all the signals are gone. What is it about the afternoon that distorts the signal so bad, that you lose it?

 

[arnoldevns]

DTV is not a failure, it just isn't perfect.
I still think the VHF stations need more power.
Eventually the FCC will either move all of those stations or give them a power boost.

 

[landtuna]

If the DTV transition had been adequately tested beforehand all this could have been avoided. BUT....I am not convinced a power increase will solve all the problems. RF10 did that here and although the dropouts are less frequent they still occur.

DTV is clearly an immature technology and had no business being deployed.

 

[greenbastard]

I feel your pain. I have a TV set up inside the 610 loop and still get the pixilation and drop outs. (what pisses me off is that those religious broadcaster have a better signal than KHOU and KTRK)

Yes, I use Rabbit ears.
No, I'm not going to spend extra money on an antenna after I spent money buying a friggin digital box (which by the way takes up another electric socket )

It worked before, but now I gotta spend money and effort to make it work??? Just like radio, TV may soon die. Bye bye Television. Hello Netflix, Hulu, and On Demand.

 

[joesixpack]

There's a small but vocal group of people who I've only encountered on Radio-Info that absolutely refuses to use the proper tools for the job, then runs around complaining loudly about how it's everybody's problem but their own. Is our digital TV standard perfect? No. Are other standards in the world any better? That's a matter of debate, but I know someone in Chile who has the same issues with indoor antennas with ISDB-T that we have in the US, and ISDB-T is widely considered to be a superior standard. As with our standard, outdoor antennas work perfectly fine with ISDB-T.

When did I say that it's everyone's problem but my own? The fact is, under the supposedly inferior technology, analog, the worst problem I had was the picture being a little fuzzy. Now, with this "amazing" DTV transition, most of the time I can't even get a signal. If I do get a signal it's only a matter of time until it drops out, and if even a speck of dust lands on the antenna the signal becomes all pixelated or goes completely black. I am forced to go out and buy a converter box and an expensive indoor antenna, and when that doesn't work I have to buy an outdoor antenna, and even then I am not guaranteed to always get a signal. With the old rabbit ears, I would always get a signal, with what was basically just two metal sticks sitting on top of my TV. Sure, when DTV works, it's wonderful. The picture is crystal clear and the sound is greatly improved. But it's a roll of the dice on whether I get to enjoy these features at any given time. How DTV an improvement over analog at all?

 

[tripinva]

When did I say that it's everyone's problem but my own?

Apologies to you sir, I was not referring to you when I made that statement. I should have made that clearer. There are people on Radio-Info who do that, however.

I am forced to go out and buy [...] an expensive indoor antenna

I'm willing to bet that whatever expensive indoor antenna you bought was overpriced and for not much more you could have bought a much better outdoor antenna. Or for less, built your own superior indoor antenna. (Look on YouTube for "Gray-Hoverman.") Aside from indoor antennas being poor in general, a lot of the indoor antennas sold in stores, especially the amplified ones, are terrible. About the only one I have seen floating around that is of any value at all is the Terk HDTVi, and even then you're more likely to come across the HDTVa which has a miserable amplifier in it.

On Radio-Info there's a station engineer that floats around. He works for a VHF TV station and almost every call he receives is from someone who was sold an amplified indoor antenna that only works on UHF, and even on UHF they are mediocre at best. The FCC has proposed imposing standards on antenna sales expressly because most of them are so awful. We'll see if anything comes of that.

But the fact of the matter is that an indoor antenna will never perform as well as an outdoor will due to signal losses and reflections from walls, closer proximity to interference sources, and smaller size. When I was at school living in on-grounds housing, I used my spectrum analyzer to check my VHF antenna on the local VHF station. Indoors, 7 dB, or less if I wasn't in front of the window. Not enough for a decode. Outdoors? 23 dB. Plenty of signal (16 dB is the minimum for a decode). That's a huge hit to take on signal levels, be it analog or digital.

- Trip

 

[Scotpfv]

It seems that I have had the opposite experiece of many of the posters here. I am about 25-30 miles west of the Cedar Hill antenna farm (DFW). When I moved here around 2001 (in the analog days) I could only get 1 channel with my indoor antenna. (Apt. complex, so outdoor is not an option). Thus, I got cable and had it until the DTV transition. I did spend around $60 to get a better indoor antenna, and it did take a bit of trial and error to finally locate the precise position for it. But then I was getting not only the full power stations but to my suprise most of the LPTV's as well. I find I watch the LPTV stuff more than anything else.

Long story short, I cancelled the cable. My investment of $60 two years ago vs. $95 a month for cable? Easy choice.

 

[flashback]

i will put a question out there.

if a person who used analog with rabbit ears that came with the set can get good reception but on a tv set made for digital tv with most antenas that are not outdoor antenas that have dropped channels, lost sound and pixilation how can DTV be better?

 

[dhett]

i will put a question out there.

if a person who used analog with rabbit ears that came with the set can get good reception but on a tv set made for digital tv with most antenas that are not outdoor antenas that have dropped channels, lost sound and pixilation how can DTV be better?

Better audio quality. Better video quality: no ghosts, no sparkles, no snow, sharper picture. Multicasting. 16 X 9 display. More efficient use of spectrum - stations can now be co-channel in the same market.

Downside? Definitely the cliff effect - great when you're on the cliff, miserable when you go over. DTV is much less forgiving of imprecise antenna aiming and length, especially VHF DTV signals. If the dipoles on your rabbit ears are fully extended, you might get 8, but don't count on 11 or 13. Those require the dipoles to be almost fully retracted. DTV is much more sensitive to electrical interference, or should I say that it has a much more severe manifestation of interference than does analog.

I do feel your pain. Last week, I flew through IAH - I travel with a set of cheap indoor rabbit ears and tuner stick for my laptop. At a south-facing window in the terminal, I could pull in UHF stations, including low-powers, but couldn't get a consistent lock onto 8, 11 or 13.

 

[flashback]

a few months ago i made the same decision the board member who started this thread did.got cable because i had problems with 3 or 4 antenas i got trying to depend on over the air tv.antenas supposidly made for DTV as well as regular rabbit ears.

as i said before living in an apartment i cant go the outdoor antena and it would anger me if i had to go the expensive outdoor antenna route to see the same channels i could see before DTV.

even if i ended finding the right expensive indoor antenna to get the proper reception it would constantly upset me to have to spend so much to get the over th air channels i had before.

at least with cable you get a lot more channels for the investment but i would love to have good over the air reception without too much damn research,trial and error and costly antenna purchasing.

 

[fredcantu]

With the money you spend on cable in just the first year...
$30 x 12 = $360
$40 x 12 = $480
$50 x 12 = $600
You could surely resolve your OTA reception issues and enjoy free viewing from there on out.

 

[KeithE4]

With the money you spend on cable in just the first year...
$30 x 12 = $360
$40 x 12 = $480
$50 x 12 = $600
You could surely resolve your OTA reception issues and enjoy free viewing from there on out.

In my case it's $90 (including tax and "fees", or $1080 per year!) for 200 channels + HDTV via Ygnition Networks/Dish Network. I paid $70 for my Terk antenna, which sits on top of a 6' bookshelf, located where I can't walk in front of it. ;D

 

[KTN Corp]

Another alternative: FM radio (and NOAA WeatherRadio). It sounds like you're watching TV. KUHF is now my major news source now. The TV news is sensationalized propaganda lacking any substance with commercials as filler. I usually stay within the non-comm band to avoid commercials.

I've been doing this since a few months before the transition. Radio is also portable over TV; I carry a pocket radio and also listen in the car and home so you'll never miss a show.

With the failure of HD Radio, FM isn't going to be digital for at least a decade or more. So no dropouts for now!

Try it before spending $50/month in these tough times.

 

[landtuna]

Better audio quality. Better video quality: no ghosts, no sparkles, no snow, sharper picture. Multicasting. 16 X 9 display.

In my analog days I never experienced ghosts, sparklies, snow and the PQ was perfectly adequate. I will admit I do get a clearer picture now but there has been no other significant change to me. 16X9 display is virtually useless when all the sets in the house are 4X3 and multicasting benefits only the station owners (unless one likes 1950's B&W sitcoms as a steady diet).

If the dipoles on your rabbit ears are fully extended, you might get 8, but don't count on 11 or 13. Those require the dipoles to be almost fully retracted.

I could probably figure it out given enough time but is there a rule of thumb as to how long the VHF dipoles should be extended to gather up the hi-band VHF signals?

 

[KeithE4]

I could probably figure it out given enough time but is there a rule of thumb as to how long the VHF dipoles should be extended to gather up the hi-band VHF signals?

I would start out with 1/4 wavelength at the middle of Channel 10 (195 MHz). A 1/4-wavelength antenna is calculated to be 234 / f, where f is the frequency in MHz. That makes it 1.2 feet, or about 14 inches for each element. Since rabbit ear elements aren't normally positioned to be perfectly horizontal, experimentation will be necessary. Positioning them like a "V" should work. It works for me, anyway.

And I would definitely set it for Channel 10 since they have the most problems. Rabbit ears with 1/8" VHF elements should have enough bandwidth to also cover Channels 8 and 12 with no issues.