Not true. Legal stations pay license fees, comply with FCC rules, and pay taxes. Illegal stations don't. So in addition to stealing frequency, they're stealing city services and not paying their share of other costs.
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WGBH looks at Pirate Radio in Boston.....
- Thread starter Wimmmex
- Start date
Not true. Legal stations pay license fees, comply with FCC rules, and pay taxes. Illegal stations don't. So in addition to stealing frequency, they're stealing city services and not paying their share of other costs.
Not true. Legitimate lower-powered non-profit non-commercial all-volunteer college/community stations in the metro Boston area such as WMBR at MIT, WZBC at BC, WMFO at Tufts U., WMWM at Salem State, WBRS at Brandeis U., WRBB at Northeastern, and Public Radio station WUMB at U. Mass. Boston often have to field calls from listeners complaining about interference from adjacent pirate stations.
Occasionally these non-commercial stations can be successful in getting the FCC to remove pirate stations from frequencies that cause interference to them, but often they can't, and even when they are successful, another one will just pop up adjacent to them on the dial and splatter their signals again.
In addition to a wide variety of programming produced by college students, most of these college/community stations also have community volunteer produced programming serving many groups in the area that are not served by corporate radio, including Haitian, Caribbean, Latin, genuine locally produced Urban R&B and Hip-Hop, and much more. However, not only are the pirate operators not interested in going through the process to apply to host programming in community slots that are often available on these legitimate stations (they wouldn't be able to air commercials so they wouldn't make money off of it), they also don't think twice about interfering with their signals.
A thought from my Government teacher from way back when: The thing that makes this country work is it's citizens have respect for the law and demand our elected officials be accountable according to the law. When government is not, it is the citizen's fault because in a country where they elect their government, the government is a reflection of the citizens.
She made another great statement I didn't get at the time: true freedom comes by not exercising your freedom to the fullest extent.
Why those two comments she made that I took notes on stuck with me, I can't say, but man was she a babe!
She made another great statement I didn't get at the time: true freedom comes by not exercising your freedom to the fullest extent.
Why those two comments she made that I took notes on stuck with me, I can't say, but man was she a babe!
Also important to mention is that the average pirate station is poorly engineered, using equipment bought on the internet from dubious manufacturers and installed with often minimal regards for "Good Engineering Practices", building codes, OSHA RF protections, etc.
Anecdotally, I have one case about pirates that is still frightening to think of. Some years back, I was on a Triple-7 flying into Miami from LA, and we were just west of the airport in final descent, having passed the Turnpike and approaching the outer market when the descent was halted with an immense application of power to the engines. The plane shot upwards and turned sharply to the south (MIA has no north or south facing runways). The acceleration was considerable, causing loose items to fly around the cabin and under-seat luggage to slide rapidly towards the rear of the plane.
The cause was the plane's lack of last-moment communication with the tower due to a pirate station with a transmitter that was radiating in the aircraft band. The pilot instituted collision abatement procedures and got off the regular flight lanes until he could contact the tower on an alternate channel.
300 people could have died due to that particular pirate and its crappy equipment and incompetent maintenance.
I have other stories of a pirate wiping out an LA station in a significant area of LA's Westside, or another pirate that threatened club owners with fights and disruptions in their venue if they did not buy advertising. Another had such a bad installation that they showed up on a half dozen places on the dial, destroying reception of licensed stations in a considerable area around the transmitter.
There is a big difference between the endangerment of the lives of other by speeding and the actual harm and mayhem (borrowed from Allstate!) that pirates cause on the radio dial and to public safety.
And the next time I read or hear about a speeder hitting and killing a pedestrian or bicyclist, I'll remember how you have decided to ignore the law on that one, too.
What is interesting is there have been options for a pirate to go legit. Sure the law says if you operated a pirate you don't qualify but if you voluntarily shut down and apply the FCC will likely approve. That doesn't mean there will be many objections filed. Then again, those options have been non-commercial. To choose to operate outside the law does not earn my respect and I would say government officials that choose to be a part of the station by agreeing to interviews and such aren't worthy either. I'm sure there is a licensed station that they could afford to lease and make a living operating while serving the community. If they are 'that' popular, the agency dollars they could court by going legit would likely offset any additional costs of leasing.
I understand the hefty fees associated with broadcast radio. You are all talking about sunken costs and at most fixed costs. Obviously it’s not fair they’re operating, but honestly-that’s subjective. I do not think the way the radio industry operates is fair at all.
The most legitimate complaint would be airplane signal but it would seem to me that 87.7 is so far down on the frequency it is harmless.
87.7 itself is much more out of the way than say 101.3 105.3 and 96.5- those stations are much more low quality and I sometimes get their interference. I’ve never caught interference from WERS from 87.7 in 12 years...
Phenomena like this are becoming rarer and rarer in today’s monitored, policed, and ever more corporate society. I intend to enjoy it while it lasts.
The most legitimate complaint would be airplane signal but it would seem to me that 87.7 is so far down on the frequency it is harmless.
87.7 itself is much more out of the way than say 101.3 105.3 and 96.5- those stations are much more low quality and I sometimes get their interference. I’ve never caught interference from WERS from 87.7 in 12 years...
Phenomena like this are becoming rarer and rarer in today’s monitored, policed, and ever more corporate society. I intend to enjoy it while it lasts.
Care to elaborate in a rationale format?
That could be said about a lot of things, but your original contention was that they didn't HARM anyone, or as you said, "No damage is being done to basic city functions." You still haven't addressed the fact that because they're illegal, they don't pay taxes. That includes the city's business tax, federal income tax, and employee Medicare tax. These are big issues that go beyond whatever you think about the radio industry.
I can't figure why UrbanTeenager thinks he's going to persuade a board frequented by people who work in licensed radio that they should just give pirates a pass if they're not right on top of their frequencies or if they provide musical genres largely ignored by licensed radio. An 87.7 pirate is second adjacent to WMBR and could easily cause interference on low-quality radios with poor selectivity or a vulnerability to overload. And commercial pirates, especially professional-sounding ones, steal potential ad dollars from legit broadcasters, I'm not in radio myself, but I totally understand the attitude of the people who work in it.
You're not going to win here, UT. Go ahead and listen to pirates if they give you music you can't hear anywhere but inconveniently scheduled weekend or late night specialty shows. There's no law that says you can't. I used to listen to Touch often when I would visit Boston, just for a change of pace. Just don't rub it in the professionals' faces.
You're not going to win here, UT. Go ahead and listen to pirates if they give you music you can't hear anywhere but inconveniently scheduled weekend or late night specialty shows. There's no law that says you can't. I used to listen to Touch often when I would visit Boston, just for a change of pace. Just don't rub it in the professionals' faces.
Certainly for owners what fuels the flames is the high cost of entry. When you jump through hoops for years, tie up money in hopes of gaining a license and pay every step of the way, have to adhere to all the FCC regulations, then the person that doesn't pay the cost takes a frequency, they're certainly up in arms. Add in a pirate that skims off some ad dollars and they're ready to unload with a defensive that spells certain death. Only it is not their battle but rather the entity that regulates them.
For some broadcasters, they found the frequency, had it assigned, fought off other applicants, built and then operated, a process that easily takes a decade or more. In more recent years it's the auction where enormous sums are paid just to apply for a frequency and then another enormous sum to construct. In both scenarios it is a very uphill battle to win, the sort that keeps you awake at night wondering if you can pull it off.Enter the guy that buys a transmitter and just goes on the air without the fight and costs and you understand why pirates are a four letter word to a licensee.
It's akin to a friend that came to the US legally. I asked him what he thought of all the folks crossing the border without going through the proper channels. He said to round them up and send them back, that they were criminals. His response was because he went through the process to gain entry and then earn his citizenship and he's not about to let somebody off the hook after the price he paid to do it right. Quite frankly he had zero compassion for them. He was dirt poor and faced much of the same reality today's border crosser faces but he went through the right channels. He said if he could do it right, they could too.
For some broadcasters, they found the frequency, had it assigned, fought off other applicants, built and then operated, a process that easily takes a decade or more. In more recent years it's the auction where enormous sums are paid just to apply for a frequency and then another enormous sum to construct. In both scenarios it is a very uphill battle to win, the sort that keeps you awake at night wondering if you can pull it off.Enter the guy that buys a transmitter and just goes on the air without the fight and costs and you understand why pirates are a four letter word to a licensee.
It's akin to a friend that came to the US legally. I asked him what he thought of all the folks crossing the border without going through the proper channels. He said to round them up and send them back, that they were criminals. His response was because he went through the process to gain entry and then earn his citizenship and he's not about to let somebody off the hook after the price he paid to do it right. Quite frankly he had zero compassion for them. He was dirt poor and faced much of the same reality today's border crosser faces but he went through the right channels. He said if he could do it right, they could too.
How is this different than a liquor license? There is a limited supply, if you want one, you have to buy one that is already assigned and "apply" for the transfer.
Rubbing it in people’s faces? ?I’m just giving my POV. I’m not trying to necessarily convince anyone. If anything, I’m trying to see if these posters can say something that would change my mind. It’s radio discussions dot com not former radio professionals only dot com. The fact that one contrasting mindset is a “rub in the face” is outrageous.
The most controversial mindset I hold is that I think the actual cost of raiding these guys makes the FCC look weak and foolish and is more costly than is worth. I have close to zero empathy for large corporations that benefited from the dergeulaization of the radio industry have large bankrolls to lay out lazy and unappealing stations.
The overall outcome is The FCC looks less legitimate and the station looks more so, no?
Part of my difference on this board is I of the generation of non radio listeners. These Laws and Regulations, blind adherence to them, and the ageism of professional industries in general is why the radio has declined in FM popularity.
LOL! Touche'!
It's called a business....and with every business, you need a business model that works. Many of the large companies started out with small bankrolls....and grew. Look at Greater Media that stated with one station in Southbridge(?).
Seems to me these Pirates want something (of value) for nothing.
I don't understand this logic at all. No, I don't agree at all.
I think radio in ALL it's forms, (FM, AM, DX, SWL, Scanners, CB, Sirius/XM, HD) are all in decline, and much of the magic for listeners is gone. Is anyone amazed at radio anymore when they have a cellphone in their pocket that allows them to talk to someone on a camel in the desert on the other side of the earth. (In that environment, the idea of shortwave seems awfully quaint, doesn't it.)
But the major reason it has declined is that most people have multitudes of more choices to engage them. Many of us remember that radio was the ONE place you could go for FREE music. Now....not so much!
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I disagree. Shall we not eliminate all traffic laws and let people drive as they desire without impunity? Everything has certain laws and regulations to adhere to. Sometimes it hampers an operation but more often than not it benefits in the long run.
I suppose the sticking point for me is the aforementioned 'pirate' has had options all along to do things right. They could easily lease a station or HD frequency. They have been around long enough to have applied for a frequency. The leasing option is still there and I suspect there are stations willing do take them on tomorrow and they're affordable. If there was not an option, it would be easier to have sympathy but when there are options other than breaking FCC Rules and Regulations, the choice puts them in the company of thieves and bandits in my book regardless of the 'service' to the community they provide or the listening audience they have. Robin Hood stole from the rich to give to the poor. Robin Hood was still a thief and a lawbreaker. Robin Hood might have helped the poor but he stole what one earned to give it to someone who did not earn it. It's that old line two wrongs don't make a right. Society only stands when we comply with the rules and when the rules aren't fair, the only way not to fall in to chaos is to cause change through the proper channels (which I admit is a long and difficult process but it sure beats chaos any day).
I suppose the sticking point for me is the aforementioned 'pirate' has had options all along to do things right. They could easily lease a station or HD frequency. They have been around long enough to have applied for a frequency. The leasing option is still there and I suspect there are stations willing do take them on tomorrow and they're affordable. If there was not an option, it would be easier to have sympathy but when there are options other than breaking FCC Rules and Regulations, the choice puts them in the company of thieves and bandits in my book regardless of the 'service' to the community they provide or the listening audience they have. Robin Hood stole from the rich to give to the poor. Robin Hood was still a thief and a lawbreaker. Robin Hood might have helped the poor but he stole what one earned to give it to someone who did not earn it. It's that old line two wrongs don't make a right. Society only stands when we comply with the rules and when the rules aren't fair, the only way not to fall in to chaos is to cause change through the proper channels (which I admit is a long and difficult process but it sure beats chaos any day).
WMBR does receive listener complaints of splatter from the 87.7 pirate.
Wrong. There are rules for Pandora and streaming sites too, and these rules are FAR more expensive and cumbersome than broadcast rules. The rules say if you play music on the internet, you must pay royalties to the artist, composer, record label, and musicians. That alone can be a huge bill, and is probably why the pirate choses broadcasting rather than the internet. SoundExchange polices you through your ISP. So if you pirate their music, they can shut you down.
Actually, you read the post almost entirely wrong. The poster of the comment about radio professionals is not a radio person themselves. In simpler language: you should not come to a group that includes current and former radio pros without having your facts straight.
The cost of enforcement is not the issue. Enforcement is part of the overall concept of "Rule of Law" (look it up if you do not know what the term means) where following the laws our elected officials have enacted is the cornerstone of democracy. Both obeying laws and enforcing them selectively are the first steps towards anarchy where each person only obeys the laws that they "like".
As has already been said, those big broadcasters started out as entrepreneurs. Lowry Mays, who founded Clear Channel which is now iHeart began in the 70's by buying a "broke" FM in San Antonio, turning it around and then buying a less than profitable local AM. Nearly all the "big" companies started out small... some with a single local station in a smaller market. If you go far enough back, you even find that CBS started when a tobacco merchant bought a failing station in Philadelphia and took the risk of trying to create a network in the early days of radio.
No, the overall outcome benefits public safety, protects local government tax collections, and, most important, reinforces the position for which the FCC was founded: to protect the orderly use of limited radio spectrum space.
I'm not sure what that really means. Are you advocating breaking of laws? Are you saying that some people don't listen to terrestrial radio because licensed stations follow the law?
And what "industry" is not "professional"?
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Again, get your facts right before you post nonsense.
Look up harmonics, spurious emissions (spurs) and other radiations of a bad/poorly installed/badly maintained transmitter and antenna.
Airport / flight control operations are conducted around 129 mHz and 460 mHz and TSA operations uses around 160 mHz (approximate). The lower of those frequency bands is right above the FM band, and any badly tuned transmitter can put a lot of signal there, particularly since pirates use a lot more power than airport operations and even the off-frequency radiations can seriously overpower those transmissions.
I later learned that MIA operations frequently had issues with pirates and had procedures for alerting aircraft to use different frequencies... a procedure that is in itself dangerous given the huge traffic at MIA: the airport handles over 1,100 daily landings and departures, and about one every minute in peak times.
You do know it is an online radio station right?.. b87fm.com. Also as far as me getting my facts straight-my facts are straight, and have been straight. I did but misread anything. I understand the “damages” etc. I’ve said my piece. The station is online and on-air as usual. Unless there is major legislative change the FCC is futile effort and yes the station is illegal. These are all the facts that matter.
You may not know the answer to this, but the station is operating online legally? They're paying SoundExchange for the music they play? They're paying an ISP for the bandwidth? They're following the rules online, but breaking them on air? That's all very interesting. I can tell you that the music industry polices their music with more intensity than the FCC polices the airwaves. Private industry can afford more muscle than the government. But if the online station is legal, that means someone knows their street address, and there is a paper trail. Personally I can't understand why a group would follow online rules and risk everything also running a pirate on air. What is gained by running a pirate that can't be achieved online?
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