What Can Save AM Radio in Southern California?

[davideduardo]

I can find no coorelation to the $$ flow or value of any station vs. the enjoyment I have recieved from them at times. Some were making a lot of money, some were in total collapse, but either still able to do that special thing that radio does.

The ability to bring in more money than goes out is the long-term issue. While a new idea may be funded, if it does not provide an income capable of sustaining the concept, it will eventually die (unless it appeals to a potential owner with lots of money and little sense).

Radio has been called a bi-modal marketing situation, where the users are not the income providers. Or where the true users are the ones who provide income... advertisers... so a model that does not give advertisers a large audience will not be sustained by them.

I have found more examples of things that appeal to me yet were not profitable in television and magazines over the years. But I did recognize that my interests might not represent enough other people to be viable for a broadcaster.

 

[w9wi]

I read in another place that the government has been placing 5KW transmitters in hardened enclosures at AM transmitter locations. It has always been my contention that AM radio is more viable in case of a massive disaster to reach wide areas. But that only works if there are still receivers and people who would use them. Perhaps instead of cluttering up the FM band with a new group of LPFM stations for community broadcasters, why not put them on AM and gradually migrate the existing LPFM to the AM band. That would create a better FM band and at the same time a cadre of AM users which would be able to receive emergency information should the need arise.

Depending on the nature of the disaster, I would suggest in most cases FM is preferable to AM for emergency coverage.

Remember that on AM, the entire tower is the antenna. On FM, a makeshift antenna is roughly the size of a garbage can cover. Any elevated location where you can temporarily fasten such an antenna could serve as an effective FM transmission site. If the tower falls, stick an element up in a tree or something like that... On AM, either you re-erect the tower or you run a long wire. (and suffer from very inefficient transmission)

Routine operation of LPAM stations is economically impractical. You *can't* just toss up a long wire -- the high-angle radiation will clobber full-power stations elsewhere. Either that, or the LPAM puts up a full tower/folded unipole, which will limit interference but be way too expensive to implement. That, and the high noise levels on AM would limit coverage to useless levels.

 

[ercjncpr]

So, is there anything that could save AM radio?

Didn't we just have a thread on this about KABC?

Look, this is really only an issue for boomers over the age of 50. What we're talking about is some kind of preservation of the past. Because all other avenues here have been exhausted. The FCC ruined AM radio a long time ago. They over licensed the band, cut back on power, and removed all requirements. Then we had misguided attempts at AM stereo and IBOC. Neither were of any use.

So what about preservation of the past. In the scarcity of spectrum environment, AM radio was very important. Now that everyone has access to an audience, the spectrum scarcity is no longer as important. Technically speaking, AM is inferior to FM. Low power AMs are inferior to high power AMs. So that sort of answers the question.

Given that the American system of broadcasting is based around commercial radio, I'd say there's not much that can save AM as it is now. The FCC would have to reverse a lot of its bad decisions, and perhaps make it advantageous for profit making companies to donate their AM frequencies to non-profit organizations that might be more willing to use the stations as museums from the past. I could see some non-profit foundations set up to preserve old time AM radio, make it sound the way it did 50 years ago, supported by donations from boomers and similarly motivated companies. Sort of like groups who preserve drive-ins, merry-go-rounds, and roller coasters. But it's all a huge long shot, and the FCC doesn't seem predisposed to do anything with these frequencies. I think IBOC was the last chance for an electronics manufacturer to attempt to build something designed to improve the frequency response of AM radio. It's failure makes it very unlikely that anyone will invest money in improving AM radio.

I am very much in to OTR, the old time ways etc. I truly miss the way AM used to be. BUT--Most of the world is now on FM and it is time that the USA joined them.

 

[nmoore6676]

Perhaps instead of cluttering up the FM band with a new group of LPFM stations for community broadcasters, why not put them on AM and gradually migrate the existing LPFM to the AM band.

I asked that exact question and was told that AM transmitters and towers are more expensive to operate than LPFM.

But just for argument's sake, what if KABC's AM towers were turned over to a public or community broadcaster and maintained for their use. The there are a lot of AM installations already in existence and at relatively low powers, 1KW or less, diplexing several of them on a single tower wouldn't be that hard. Then many AMm stations such as one local operator here in Ottumwa have a side mounted AM array installed on their FM tower. It could work and not have to cost that much as any tower or any tower lease has to cost money even for LPFM.

The proliferation of LPFMs is cluttering up the band and many of them are as unlistenable as any AM station I've ever heard. There are a bunch licensed to here and only a couple of them, mostly NPR repeaters, are even usable. Some of them just transmit unmodulated carrier most of the time along with hum and static too.

 

[TheBigA]

But just for argument's sake, what if KABC's AM towers were turned over to a public or community broadcaster and maintained for their use.

Maybe I'm missing what you're saying....who would do the maintaining?

The proliferation of LPFMs is cluttering up the band and many of them are as unlistenable as any AM station I've ever heard.

I agree.

 

[davideduardo]

The there are a lot of AM installations already in existence and at relatively low powers, 1KW or less, diplexing several of them on a single tower wouldn't be that hard. Then many AMm stations such as one local operator here in Ottumwa have a side mounted AM array installed on their FM tower. It could work and not have to cost that much as any tower or any tower lease has to cost money even for LPFM.

A huge percentage of AMs, particularly the fulltime ones, are directional. The cost of diplexing directionals is astounding, and only done where land is very costly, zoning difficult and the patterns both point the same way.

AM antennas are not mounted on the side of FM towers. FM antennas are mounted on towers. In some cases, the tower is, first, an AM radiator. FM can be put on it via special couplers... or, what you may have seen, a folded unipole. A unipole has outrigger wires parallel with the tower, and is fed to a matching point... the tower and the outriggers are both part of the antenna. Only one station would use a unipole, I believe, because the system uses a feed point matched to the station's frequency.

But what could be done in many cases is to figure out the minimum non-directional power for directional stations... KABC might be 5 kw day, 1 kw night which I think it was at one time. But some might be down to a few hundred watts daytime and perhaps 50 watts at night if they have deep nulls, making any operation impractical.

 

[nmoore6676]

The there are a lot of AM installations already in existence and at relatively low powers, 1KW or less, diplexing several of them on a single tower wouldn't be that hard. Then many AMm stations such as one local operator here in Ottumwa have a side mounted AM array installed on their FM tower. It could work and not have to cost that much as any tower or any tower lease has to cost money even for LPFM.

A huge percentage of AMs, particularly the fulltime ones, are directional. The cost of diplexing directionals is astounding, and only done where land is very costly, zoning difficult and the patterns both point the same way.

AM antennas are not mounted on the side of FM towers. FM antennas are mounted on towers. In some cases, the tower is, first, an AM radiator. FM can be put on it via special couplers... or, what you may have seen, a folded unipole. A unipole has outrigger wires parallel with the tower, and is fed to a matching point... the tower and the outriggers are both part of the antenna. Only one station would use a unipole, I believe, because the system uses a feed point matched to the station's frequency.

But what could be done in many cases is to figure out the minimum non-directional power for directional stations... KABC might be 5 kw day, 1 kw night which I think it was at one time. But some might be down to a few hundred watts daytime and perhaps 50 watts at night if they have deep nulls, making any operation impractical.

Sorry I oversimplified, I meant on the sides(s) but the point is that an AM antenna could be installed on existing FM towers or here in the Midwest where cell towers are tall structure requiring strobe light air craft navigation lighting it would be easy to put such an array onto one of them, so long as we are using lower powers. Of course a 50KW transmitter would not be good in such cases. There isn't much other use for the 530 to 1710 KHz band as the new technologies are all scrambling for VHF, UHF and higher frequencies.

But just for argument's sake, what if KABC's AM towers were turned over to a public or community broadcaster and maintained for their use.

Maybe I'm missing what you're saying....who would do the maintaining?

Maintained as in allowing them to remain in position by the owners of KABC. Maintained as to the painting and lighting by whoever is using them.

In these days of zoning squabbles it would not be easy to relocate an existing antenna array unless shared existing facilities were available. The FCC might have to streamline the procedure to get them moved to an alternate location but I just see it a mostly a win win for all concerned.

A properly configured 1KW or less AM could serve the area (or greater) covered by most LPFMS in urban and suburban communities. In rural areas they could be given higher power up to 5KW which could cover those areas were a single LPFM, even with repeaters, could not reach all the target audience.

 

[TheBigA]

Maintained as in allowing them to remain in position by the owners of KABC. Maintained as to the painting and lighting by whoever is using them.

The reason they'd donate the station is the expense exceeds the value. So there's no point in keeping one of the biggest expenses. It'[s a boat anchor they'd be anxious to get rid of. A non-profit could get the tower land taken off the tax roles, which would be good.

 

[LKellerIII]

Whatever technical knowledge I know about radio signals I've learned from this website. I'm just a listener, but I have ears and I know what sounds better...FM So did my parents. In my childhood, as early as the late 1950s, my parents - who were both classical and jazz music connoisseurs - would listen at home to the KFAC-FM simulcast, and various FM jazz programs - because they understood that the FM band broadcast in much higher fidelity.

This was about a decade before stereo. My father was not a guy that required the latest thing. They didn't get a color TV until the mid 70s, and made the switch to stereo records only begrudgingly - when they could no longer get LPs in monaural. Nevertheless, my parents preferred FM for music when they were home (no FM in the car in those days).

So if we're talking about "nails-in-the-coffin" for AM radio, it seems to me that the AM fidelity deficit was one of the first "nails" - which meant that AM began a slow downhill slide in popularity as soon as FM got commercially viable, and consumer awareness caught up.

Electronic devices were much more expensive in those days relative to income, so it took a long time for FM receivers to gain wide acceptance compared to today, when new technology seems to be adopted by the masses almost overnight.

 

[davideduardo]

Maintained as in allowing them to remain in position by the owners of KABC. Maintained as to the painting and lighting by whoever is using them.

The reason they'd donate the station is the expense exceeds the value. So there's no point in keeping one of the biggest expenses. It'[s a boat anchor they'd be anxious to get rid of. A non-profit could get the tower land taken off the tax roles, which would be good.

Given that an AM like KABC in LA is likely still worth in the $20 to $30 million range for religious or ethnic broadcasting, it's still likely that it's worth more dead than alive. When KFWB is finaly sold out of the trust, we'll have a better idea of the value of AM in this era.

 

[davideduardo]

Sorry I oversimplified, I meant on the sides(s) but the point is that an AM antenna could be installed on existing FM towers or here in the Midwest where cell towers are tall structure requiring strobe light air craft navigation lighting it would be easy to put such an array onto one of them, so long as we are using lower powers. Of course a 50KW transmitter would not be good in such cases. There isn't much other use for the 530 to 1710 KHz band as the new technologies are all scrambling for VHF, UHF and higher frequencies.

Most utility towers don't have insulated guys, so a lot of retrofitting of a guyed structure would be required. And both guyed and self supporters would have different potentials on the outriggers and the tower, so any access to the utility antennae would require shut-down of the AM. And many utility towers are not tall enough, either.

 

[Tom Wells]

..... AM fidelity deficit was one of the first "nails"

I'm truly sorry you and your family were saddled with AM radios that did not have full high frequency response.

FM may have "more or less guaranteed" 15 khz response, but most often has been squished flat as a pressed flower in a book.

The WHAM ( not Rochester) of 150% positive asymmetric modulation is something I've yet to hear on FM and I'm 50 this summer.

I can easily find examples of good and bad radios from all decades. There are others here who also know firsthand that there
truly is NO reason for AM to have been intentinally hobbled as it was.

If prescription lenses were made as sloppily as most AM radios are built, the popular notion would be that "glasses are just junk, you need contact lenses."

It is a good comparison.
Each is about one the senses, and there is no reason to do a sloppy job when serving any of the senses information.

 

[nmoore6676]

Sorry I oversimplified, I meant on the sides(s) but the point is that an AM antenna could be installed on existing FM towers or here in the Midwest where cell towers are tall structure requiring strobe light air craft navigation lighting it would be easy to put such an array onto one of them, so long as we are using lower powers. Of course a 50KW transmitter would not be good in such cases. There isn't much other use for the 530 to 1710 KHz band as the new technologies are all scrambling for VHF, UHF and higher frequencies.

Most utility towers don't have insulated guys, so a lot of retrofitting of a guyed structure would be required. And both guyed and self supporters would have different potentials on the outriggers and the tower, so any access to the utility antennae would require shut-down of the AM. And many utility towers are not tall enough, either.

The utility towers in SoCal no, the ones in rural Iowa and Missouri that I see everyday, mostly are tall enough. Yes there would have to be made electrical adjustments but it could be done. And yes maintenance would require the AM to be shut off as was done last summer when they painted the tower for the local AM/FM combo. I am talking non-profit community radio so shutting then down long enough to do maintenance would not be the same as turning off a commercial station.
In this photo you can see the AM antenna running along the sides on big standoffs.

http://www.tomfmottumwa.com/photos/tower-painting-7-25-10.html

All I am suggesting is that it is something to be considered before making the FM band sound like a graveyard AM channel. They, meaning government leaders and local civic groups, want more local community radio and this could provide it. perhaps even more effectively than flea powered FM. Here, as I said I, can only get about two or three of the ones licensed to this town and which are supposed to be receivable from my home yet I can receive an AM station 35 miles away which only uses 229 watts at 740KHz.

 

[davideduardo]

In this photo you can see the AM antenna running along the sides on big standoffs.

http://www.tomfmottumwa.com/photos/tower-painting-7-25-10.html

The outriggers are only half of the antenna... the tower itself is part of it. The thing, in fact, is correctly called a "folded unipole" as the outside skirt wires are connected to the tower itself at a matching point. This is sort of like shunt feeding an antenna, so the base of the tower can be at ground potential... but the guys have to be insulated.

 

[kenglish]

........I would second the "wideband" idea........
If you have an old Sony SRF-A100 and there's an AM playing moldy oldies, wideband it and
patch it into your home stereo system. Sounds pretty good.

If you don't have the Sony, try the Denon "NAB Supertuner" fed by a directional (shielded loop or ferrite bar) antenna, like the old McKay-Dymek DA-5 or DA-9. Then, call the station and tell them which wheel of the DJ's chair is squeaking! ;D

 

[radioguy39nj]

Perhaps instead of cluttering up the FM band with a new group of LPFM stations for community broadcasters, why not put them on AM and gradually migrate the existing LPFM to the AM band.

I asked that exact question and was told that AM transmitters and towers are more expensive to operate than LPFM.

Very interesting point! This isn't about SoCal AM, but I'll raise it anyway. WCTC (1450 AM) in New Brunswick, NJ just returned to a talk format from syndicated oldies. IMHO, their best hope to survive as a regional talk outlet is to move to LPFM. 1450 is a poor signal, particularly at night.

 

[TheBigA]

IMHO, their best hope to survive as a regional talk outlet is to move to LPFM. 1450 is a poor signal, particularly at night.

Two things about that: A commercial entity can't apply for an LPFM license. Second, there aren't any frequencies available there.

 

[radioguy39nj]

IMHO, their best hope to survive as a regional talk outlet is to move to LPFM. 1450 is a poor signal, particularly at night.

Two things about that: A commercial entity can't apply for an LPFM license. Second, there aren't any frequencies available there.

OK, question answered! Just thought I'd ask!

 

[Uncle Rob]

Personally I think going local could save it. That and getting rid of the current crop of idiots hell bent on destroying whatever is left of radio. Radio isn't local anymore. When have you heard a commercial for a local business outside of a car dealer? Most are national accounts. KVEN 1450 in Ventura just changed to ESPN and they bragged about how from 3-5 p.m. everyday they would talk about local sports. So I tuned in one day when 22 local high school teams were in playoff matchups in boys and girls basketball, water polo, soccer, et. al.. And yep, they were local allright. They had some peoople on who just opened a local "sports" bar. Now, upon attending a game that night I saw a heck of a lot more adults (and kids) at this event than would fit in that sports bar. Talk about missing the boat. To bad nobody gets it.

 

[TheBigA]

Personally I think going local could save it. That and getting rid of the current crop of idiots hell bent on destroying whatever is left of radio. Radio isn't local anymore.

Huh? Do you actually listen to the radio? Lot of local radio, especially in LA. As far as local sponsors, have you been to the mall? How many local businesses do you see. Local stores have been replaced by national chains. Not many local businesses to sell to any more. All replaced by Wal Mart, Home Depot, and Staples. The world has changed. Not just radio.