What Can Save AM Radio in Southern California?

[michael hagerty]

And if you go back and listen to airchecks from the 60s you'll find successful L.A. stations were running mostly national and regional spots then.

Banks, airlines, automakers, beers...local spots were rare...and a chunk of the ones that did air were businesses with multiple locations throughout L.A. (Wallach's Music City).

Individual car dealers were sparse, too...Hillcrest Motors on KHJ (whose owner, Willett Brown, was a major RKO stockholder), Martin Cadillac on KMPC, Felix Chevrolet, and Longo Toyota on Lohman & Barkley's show on KFI. In fact, Longo Toyota was probably the pioneer of the modern big dealer trying to attract sales from outside their neighborhood through radio (Felix, Ralph Williams Ford, Cal Worthington Dodge and Cormier Chevrolet had been doing it on TV since the early 60s).

I remember being shocked at hearing a local spot for a one-location business on KHJ in 1973....about the time Robert W. Morgan guested on Don Imus' show on WNBC and remarked about how nice it was to hear nothing but national spots...meaning "your sales guys aren't blowing three hours at lunch trying to lure some flower shop onto the air".

 

[TheBigA]

One killer for radio is that a lot of local car dealers feel they can sell cars better on cable TV than on radio. They will tell you "People can't buy what they can't see." Car dealers are selling image, and TV is a better way to do that. Also, format radio doesn't work with car sales. They want to reach across format barriers. If you can't put together a multi-format package, you'll probably lose a car dealer. Sports venues are a popular use for car dealer advertising bucks. They buy a sponsorship package at the Staples Center, they get tickets they can give out, plus during a break, they can drive a brand new car out on the ice, and park cars in the areas near the food venues. The Staples Center becomes an extension of their lot. Can spots on the radio do that?

 

[Uncle Rob]

Personally I think going local could save it. That and getting rid of the current crop of idiots hell bent on destroying whatever is left of radio. Radio isn't local anymore.

Huh? Do you actually listen to the radio? Lot of local radio, especially in LA. As far as local sponsors, have you been to the mall? How many local businesses do you see. Local stores have been replaced by national chains. Not many local businesses to sell to any more. All replaced by Wal Mart, Home Depot, and Staples. The world has changed. Not just radio.

Yea, I listen to the radio, but it's obvious you don't listen to people that do. I bought my tires from a local place, not a national chain. (They beat the national chains prices) I bank at a local credit union. (Get a better deal there than at the big banks) Most of the restaurants I go to are not national chains. (Food is better) My vacuum cleaning supplies and repairs, done locally. Need work done on my edger or lawn mower. Done locally. Doctors and Lawyers, Local. I could go on and on.

Do I do this intentionally, no, I just find better deals and food than with the national brands. So, once again, instead of tuning in to radio to get what I need, I turn it off and get my information elsewhere. In this case, the newspapers or the phone book. And yep, I still use the phone book, it is far more superior than online. Looking for a restaurant I can find the # easily as opposed to online where looking up things takes a lot longer. Put in a type of restaurant you are looking for in your local area and you'll come up with numerous ones out of the area (including yelp.com) or that are closed and have been for years.

Radio and the people that run it are trying to make radio irrelevant in everyone's lives and they are succeeding beyond their wildest dreams. It used to be if I need information of any type I could get it from the radio. Now? I get less and less information.

 

[Tom Wells]

Personally I think going local could save it. That and getting rid of the current crop of idiots hell bent on destroying whatever is left of radio. Radio isn't local anymore.

Huh? Do you actually listen to the radio? Lot of local radio, especially in LA. As far as local sponsors, have you been to the mall? How many local businesses do you see. Local stores have been replaced by national chains. Not many local businesses to sell to any more. All replaced by Wal Mart, Home Depot, and Staples. The world has changed. Not just radio.

Yea, I listen to the radio, but it's obvious you don't listen to people that do. I bought my tires from a local place, not a national chain. (They beat the national chains prices) I bank at a local credit union. (Get a better deal there than at the big banks) Most of the restaurants I go to are not national chains. (Food is better) My vacuum cleaning supplies and repairs, done locally. Need work done on my edger or lawn mower. Done locally. Doctors and Lawyers, Local. I could go on and on.

Do I do this intentionally, no, I just find better deals and food than with the national brands. So, once again, instead of tuning in to radio to get what I need, I turn it off and get my information elsewhere. In this case, the newspapers or the phone book. And yep, I still use the phone book, it is far more superior than online. Looking for a restaurant I can find the # easily as opposed to online where looking up things takes a lot longer. Put in a type of restaurant you are looking for in your local area and you'll come up with numerous ones out of the area (including yelp.com) or that are closed and have been for years.

Radio and the people that run it are trying to make radio irrelevant in everyone's lives and they are succeeding beyond their wildest dreams. It used to be if I need information of any type I could get it from the radio. Now? I get less and less information.

Rob,
So good to read words that make sense.

I too, wonder why so many stations want to be anything other than we came to expect radio stations to be.


The words of Mr Wizard to Tooter Turtle are still true.

" Be just vut you iss, not vut you iss not, folks vut does dis, is da happiest lot."

 

[radio-darn]

Discussing saving AM reminds me of the Rolling Stones lyrics, "Your father's still perfecting ways of making sealing wax." I'm sure this same type of discussion ensued among steam engine enthusiasts when the Diesel-electric locomotive came along.

AM was fun while it lasted, but it's not a technology that can evolve into a second century with any sort of economic practicality, no matter if it's Clear Channel or the People's Committee for Local Information running it. Like the Western Union telegram it will just fade away over a long period and then one day a few people will notice it's gone, but most will have never used it and not even be aware it no longer exists.

Here in San Diego one local radio blog touted how great it was that the ops/news director for the big AM has an ISDN line at home so when big news - such as the Japan earthquake/tsunami - breaks, they can be on top the story. Of course in the good old days that AM had a news department staffed 24/7, and actually had an audience who would turn on the radio in the middle of night to "get the news." This blog piece made me wonder, "Whose instinct is to turn on AM radio in the middle of the night to find out what's going on? Darn few people anymore could even find an AM radio around the house and even fewer would think to turn to it for such a situation. Those who do are, let's face it, old.

Everyone else, including most of those who do support the daytime AM talk shows, turns on cable news or the internet for breaking news. Now I will confess that if I get wind of something big happening while I'm out driving around, I'll try to remember where the AM/FM button is on my car radio so I can jump over to KNX (if there's an earthquake or big fire, they do San Diego reports even better than any San Diego radio station - go Tom Reopelle!).

 

[recto101]

I think all of the Talk radio and news shows shoud move to FM. I don't listen to KCBS 740 am in San Francisco anymore I only use KCBS 106.9 fm in San Francisco. Mainly because the sound is clearer.

 

[recto101]

Define "save".

If you mean "is there anything that will make a mass audience return to a radio band with noise issues and lower fidelity than FM?", the answer is no.

If you mean "can we get one or two of the stronger signals other than KFI and KNX to get good ratings again?", the answer is a highly conditional maybe.

If you mean "could the FCC eliminate short-spacing, abolish IBOC, outlaw devices that create interference on the AM band of the public airwaves, require licensees to repair and maintain the radials at their tower sites, require AM recievers built in the future to be high-quality wideband units and settle on a single standard for stereo?", the answer is yes. But it'll never happen.

Why do we need Shortwave and AM when the Web does this better and FM radio.

 

[radioguy39nj]

One killer for radio is that a lot of local car dealers feel they can sell cars better on cable TV than on radio. They will tell you "People can't buy what they can't see." Car dealers are selling image, and TV is a better way to do that. Also, format radio doesn't work with car sales. They want to reach across format barriers. If you can't put together a multi-format package, you'll probably lose a car dealer. Sports venues are a popular use for car dealer advertising bucks. They buy a sponsorship package at the Staples Center, they get tickets they can give out, plus during a break, they can drive a brand new car out on the ice, and park cars in the areas near the food venues. The Staples Center becomes an extension of their lot. Can spots on the radio do that?

WFAN New York, a sports station, runs tons of ads for car dealers in New York and New Jersey. Pine Belt Chevy, Smithtown Nissan, Lexus of Englewood, Bay Ridge Honda, Loman Ford-Kia and countless others run ads on the station. Loman Ford-Kia even offers a promotion if a customer mentions he heard the ad on WFAN. If these ads on WFAN didn't sell cars, you wouldn't hear them every day!

 

[radioguy39nj]

I think all of the Talk radio and news shows shoud move to FM. I don't listen to KCBS 740 am in San Francisco anymore I only use KCBS 106.9 fm in San Francisco. Mainly because the sound is clearer.

IMHO, I believe it's coming to that. As people move away from FM for music and migrate to satellite, MP3s, iPods and internet radio, FM stations that insist on playing music are competing for a dwindling market. News, talk and sports stations that have migrated to FM or simulcast on AM and FM have been able to increase their audiences and lower their demos.

This trend so far as stayed away from the top 3 markets of NY, LA and Chicago, mainly because those markets have 50 kW AM blasters that get out far from their location. That is true, but AM listenership is dwindling. Listeners under 55 grew up with FM. It is inevitable that this trend will catch up with the big 3 markets eventually.

 

[michael hagerty]

I think all of the Talk radio and news shows shoud move to FM. I don't listen to KCBS 740 am in San Francisco anymore I only use KCBS 106.9 fm in San Francisco. Mainly because the sound is clearer.

IMHO, I believe it's coming to that. As people move away from FM for music and migrate to satellite, MP3s, iPods and internet radio, FM stations that insist on playing music are competing for a dwindling market. News, talk and sports stations that have migrated to FM or simulcast on AM and FM have been able to increase their audiences and lower their demos.

This trend so far as stayed away from the top 3 markets of NY, LA and Chicago, mainly because those markets have 50 kW AM blasters that get out far from their location. That is true, but AM listenership is dwindling. Listeners under 55 grew up with FM. It is inevitable that this trend will catch up with the big 3 markets eventually.

And ultimately, it's not even about signal strength. It's about what other stations the listeners tune in to. If your intended listener has four other stations he/she likes and they're all on FM, it becomes a hassle, however small, to hit the "band" button and tune you in.

Plus, talk gets a lot of "drive-by" audience...people who are tuning around and hear a conversation that they want to be a part of either as a listener or as a caller. The fewer people listening to anyone other than you on AM, the fewer listeners you'll pick up that way.

The AM pond is just about fished out when it comes to listeners advertisers want. There are more fish in the FM pond. And that's why the move is inevitable.

 

[radioguy39nj]

I think all of the Talk radio and news shows shoud move to FM. I don't listen to KCBS 740 am in San Francisco anymore I only use KCBS 106.9 fm in San Francisco. Mainly because the sound is clearer.

IMHO, I believe it's coming to that. As people move away from FM for music and migrate to satellite, MP3s, iPods and internet radio, FM stations that insist on playing music are competing for a dwindling market. News, talk and sports stations that have migrated to FM or simulcast on AM and FM have been able to increase their audiences and lower their demos.

This trend so far as stayed away from the top 3 markets of NY, LA and Chicago, mainly because those markets have 50 kW AM blasters that get out far from their location. That is true, but AM listenership is dwindling. Listeners under 55 grew up with FM. It is inevitable that this trend will catch up with the big 3 markets eventually.

And ultimately, it's not even about signal strength. It's about what other stations the listeners tune in to. If your intended listener has four other stations he/she likes and they're all on FM, it becomes a hassle, however small, to hit the "band" button and tune you in.

Plus, talk gets a lot of "drive-by" audience...people who are tuning around and hear a conversation that they want to be a part of either as a listener or as a caller. The fewer people listening to anyone other than you on AM, the fewer listeners you'll pick up that way.

The AM pond is just about fished out when it comes to listeners advertisers want. There are more fish in the FM pond. And that's why the move is inevitable.

Well said! As a sports fan who listens to WFAN, I once was having a conversation with some young people in their 20s about sports. I mentioned WFAN and the young man said to me, "What's F-A-N?" He said he gets most of his sports news on his smartphone. If WFAN isn't reaching him with its 50 kW AM blaster signal, he'll never download the app to his smartphone!

Think about it! Even 50 kW blasters in New York, the largest media market, aren't bullet proof!

 

[recto101]

Who really listens to music on FM radio? I do for some but I get most of it from web radio and my MP3 player.

 

[TheBigA]

Who really listens to music on FM radio?

About 240 million people. You'd be surprised. You'd also be surprised the impact it can have.

 

[fybush]

Well said! As a sports fan who listens to WFAN, I once was having a conversation with some young people in their 20s about sports. I mentioned WFAN and the young man said to me, "What's F-A-N?" He said he gets most of his sports news on his smartphone. If WFAN isn't reaching him with its 50 kW AM blaster signal, he'll never download the app to his smartphone!

Think about it! Even 50 kW blasters in New York, the largest media market, aren't bullet proof!

And my 14-year-old cousin in Rockland County, a rabid Mets fan, tells me he goes to bed every night with WFAN on his radio.

At least for now, the FAN doesn't seem to have much to worry about.

 

[Marv-L.A.]

News-talk is also the most-listened to radio format in the nation, having surpassed country in the summer of 2008; country had been tops in total listeners since 1992, and still leads comfortably among all music formats.

Also, since over 90% of us listen to radio on a daily basis, satellite is not a viable threat to the 'demise' of terrestial radio anytime soon.

And as Tom taylor pointed out in his newsletter earlier this week, the percenatge of the coveted 18-34 demo which listens to radio is well north of 90%.

 

[TheBigA]

News-talk is also the most-listened to radio format in the nation, having surpassed country in the summer of 2008;

What has really help propel news-talk to #1 is the movement of the format to FM, and the addition of NPR news-talk to the ratings in PPM markets. It doesn't hurt that the #1 station in Washington DC is WTOP-FM, and NPR News-talk FM stations are in the Top 10 in major markets like Boston, San Francisco, and DC. All that doesn't help the topic of this thread.

 

[AM FM listener]

The consensus opinion appears to be that nothing can save AM radio in So Cal nor anywhere else. The News-Talk format will prolong its life for awhile but eventually even that format will be more prevalent on FM.

The day when new radios are sold with only an FM band may be here before you know it. Radios with AM bands will be only for hobbyists, like shortwave is now.

 

[systemdump]

I would agree, AM antennas are so long most people broadcasting from home would not have a place to put the wire up, might as well transmit shortwave. There probably nobody would care unless you get on a good bounce, it's virtually unused in US, as I try to find a station with my Zenith long distance. My Dad says it is because there are no major sunspots activity but that seems counter intuitive. Does anyone know if gamma rays would cause this?
They ought to extend the fm band to the old VHF TV frequencies for lpfm playground!

 

[Tom Wells]

The consensus opinion appears to be that nothing can save AM radio in So Cal nor anywhere else. The News-Talk format will prolong its life for awhile but eventually even that format will be more prevalent on FM.

The day when new radios are sold with only an FM band may be here before you know it. Radios with AM bands will be only for hobbyists, like shortwave is now.

And it will only be listened to by zombies. : I am ready to serve this underserved community, which is identifiable within my
local "greater community".

Seriously, when y'all have declared AM dead, can those of us who still use it daily (and care) begin putting some life back into it?
Remember, it's not good for any modern hi-speed data systems, so how soon can the hobbyists have it?
I have a nice old 500w rig just sitting over in a corner......

I would agree, AM antennas are so long most people broadcasting from home would not have a place to put the wire up, might as well transmit shortwave. There probably nobody would care unless you get on a good bounce, it's virtually unused in US, as I try to find a station with my Zenith long distance. My Dad says it is because there are no major sunspots activity but that seems counter intuitive. Does anyone know if gamma rays would cause this?
They ought to extend the fm band to the old VHF TV frequencies for lpfm playground!

"Very effective" AM antennas require space, but a darn good job can be done with something that will fit on an average home lot.
The problem with shortwave is it is still an AM signal and the short wave is even more likley to get into, and be decoded as audio
in modern cheap electronics than MW is.

SW is even more variable than MW, and sunspot activity makes a big difference.
A bigger difference over the years has been fewer international broadcasters and less inclination to beam signals to North America.
SW could work if the FCC had defined a service with national service, but this model suits neither markets nor governments.
It has value for wide range coverage, but isn't ever as "durable" as what is delivered in the bands adopted for broadcast.
In tropical regions lower SW was at one time used (AM modulated) for regional broadcast as the signals did not suffer as much
static (in a region where thunderstorms are almost continuous).

As with AM in the broadcast band, there is no inherent reason why SW can not approach high fidelity.
It just simply was never done on shortwave as it once was on AM broadcast.
But I do remember some SW stations long ago that had huge, delicious audio when heard on a big console radio.

 

[davideduardo]

As with AM in the broadcast band, there is no inherent reason why SW can not approach high fidelity.
It just simply was never done on shortwave as it once was on AM broadcast.
But I do remember some SW stations long ago that had huge, delicious audio when heard on a big console radio.

Many of the tropical ban SW stations that remained on fixed frequencies day and night had very good audio; I recall several I listened to and visited in the 60's that had fine equipment.

But those stations were not processed to resist fading, atmospherics and other issues that international SW stations suffered. They were local stations intended to serve large areas... several hundred miles around... within one country.

I bought a station that came with a Topical Band station (3 MHz band) but I surrendered the license in about 1967 as I could not figure out how to make my ratings / agency sales based model work for SW. But in the process, I listened to the near-100 domestic stations on the 3 and 4 MHz bands and found that a few sounded marvelous compared to the AMs most of which had inverted L antennas or short towers, with the resultant bandwidth issues.