What is with all the $10 rates for full mix radio :60s or :30s?

[fgilly]

I saw this today on All Access:

Want To Cut Some Commercials? We need some fresh voices. We're a small station that wants a big sound. Will pay $10.00 for a spot. Mostly rip and reads. You won't get rich, but you can make a few extra bucks.

Followed by:

Zeta 105 Three in the United Kingdom is looking for VO people who can cut & produce :30 & :60 spots for our non-profit community radio station. We pay $25 per spot and pay via Paypal once the spot is apporved by the client. We are looking for a base of 5 VO people to add to our regualr roster.

Then I noticed an ad for a position which I used to have in CT before I moved on:

PRODUCTION/ TRAFFIC/ PROGRAMMING ASSISTANT
Cumulus Media of Danbury is looking for a radio "jack of all trades." You'll quarterback our production department, back up the traffic & continuity department, and voicetrack a shift on one of our music stations. Experience with audio editing software is a must. Working knowledge of commercial traffic systems would be a huge plus as well. T&R to Tim Sheehan, Cumulus Media, 1004 Federal Road, Brookfield CT 06804. Email submissions of less than 4 MB are OK to [email protected].

(I knew the guy who held the position last...he was essentially the Traffic AND Production Director and Voicetracked nights. In the morning he would enter the orders, write up prod orders, etc. Then he would have to go and produce everything. Then he'd voicetrack....well that is if he wasn't filling in for someone on the air....he would have to voicetrack afterwards.)

Are the folks who are willing to work for $10 a spot contributing to the cannibalization of our industry?

 

[unpwn]

I wouldn't really look at the people willing to do the $10 work, I'd be concerned with the stations that are only offering that. And if you're out of work, but "in the biz", you know that everything is an opportunity. No matter what, SOMEONE will take this offer.
IMHO, 10 is fine for just a read. You gotta take into consideration that if they go to a "seasoned" pro, there are usually contracts involved, or monthly rates. If I just needed a female to work for about 5 minutes, on one read, then 10 is enough. I'd love to get 50 an hour...(seems a little more worth it, right?)

 

[VODood]

I won't cut a spot for less than $25.00, for local cable TV or an unrated radio market, which I still think is low. But better than nothing.

Other gigs, depending on market, usage, etc the rate is higher. Every project is different.

 

[Mike Walker]

I charge 20 per spot from prepared script, 30 if I write it from notes. And I thought I was cheap. This stuff scares the crap out of me. I'm disabled (legally blind), working from home. I have 35 years in this business. My work is WORTH SOMETHING. It's not a hobby for me. Hell, I haven't raised my rates in a decade! By the way, I AM worth it! Here's my demo http://www.theproductionroom.net/demo.m3u and a direct link for download http://www.theproductionroom.net/demo.mp3

I don't sound like anybody else! I'm worth the (very fair!) bucks. So are you!

 

[Emmett1057]

I start at $500 and work my way down. $150-300 is typical, but for clients who bring volume, I'll go to $100. $85 for internet or non-comm projects. Here's the thing: my gear wasn't free, my experience isn't free, my electric bill isn't free to keep the gear running. At $10 per spot, it would have taken about 3000 spots to break even. A new PC would require 250 spots. That's just bad business. Also, if a client pays you $10, you're sending the message that your work has no value. If I pay $2 for prime rib, I'll probably get sick. If I pay $40, it's probably delicious. I know this and would never try $2 steak because I assume it's crap.

Emmett

 

[surfdude]

I do some $20 reads for friends. Usually it's lousy, typical "radio" copy, and even trying to bring it to life takes just a few minutes. These are usually small, local client buys.

A serious radio advertiser, who spends 10K a month or more on radio, should be much more demanding than a typical radio script and read. A good general rule for pricing for local level "creative" - copywriting, voicing, and producing, is 5% of the "buy". Some agencies I work with use this formula.

Example: $10k buy x 5% = $500 for spot, or $250 each for two spots in rotation a month.

If a client is spending 10k a month on radio, he/she needs something MUCH better than what they would get for $20.
Or, they may be throwing their money away.

Good agencies and direct cleints ARE paying good money for great commercials. Find the good ones!

 

[Jono_g]

I could guess them UK adds are for pirate or local radio stations? Still though $10 is quite low.

 

[robnokshus06]

If you take a job paying $10 for a produced commercial it is because you believe your work is only worth $10 a commercial.

 

[jefflaurence]

Holy crap. 10 bucks? Biggest question would be the music and effects used. That stuff may be reasonable but it is NOT dirt cheap. And if you get some guy wanting to make a few extra bucks they are likely to use the music library at the station they might work at (or at least a few rogue CDs snatched before they left or got fired) and THAT sets the client up for major law suits and C&D orders..bet the 10 buck people don't use that as a selling point huh?

Hey there is nothing wrong with making moiney on volume deals. I cut deals all the time for the 800 number "voice tags" done for infomercials..but many times those number in the HUNDREDS of tags per project..you bet the client gets a break if they use me for the tags as well as the main voice..but jeez if you sell out for 10 bucks (and I know some do because..hey, ten bucks is ten bucks I didn't have before) that is casue for a major case of lack-of-self-esteem.

You fellas and ladies go ahead and do as many ten dollar spots as you like. I'll ride in Emmet's boat and aim high..sometimes I get less, but at least it is a respectable rate and I feel like I have value.

Trade secret: (we might find that clients WILL pay a higher rate if we ask for it..if they feel they are paying a respectable rate they will value YOU and your work all the more..if they think it's being given to them..they will abuse us..and will treat us like the chumps we are)

 

[unpwn]

I kinda hear what you people are saying about low pay, low quality, but that is NOT always the case. There are alot of people trying to get in the biz, some of which are better than alot of us. To judge them on how much they charge is ridiculous. Especially since most people that can really tell "good" production from "bad" production are people that are in the biz. The normal listener doesn't really care about the quality of a commercial.

 

[Emmett1057]

I kinda hear what you people are saying about low pay, low quality, but that is NOT always the case. There are alot of people trying to get in the biz, some of which are better than alot of us. To judge them on how much they charge is ridiculous. Especially since most people that can really tell "good" production from "bad" production are people that are in the biz. The normal listener doesn't really care about the quality of a commercial.

The normal listener will respond to a better quality spot. If someone is just getting into it and charging super low rates, they're setting the pace for future deals and cheapening the industry. Just getting started is no excuse to avoid investing in quality gear and charging a fair rate to recoup that investment.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

The normal listener will respond to a better quality spot. If someone is just getting into it and charging super low rates, they're setting the pace for future deals and cheapening the industry. Just getting started is no excuse to avoid investing in quality gear and charging a fair rate to recoup that investment.

Who decides what is a "fair rate" vs. what is a "super low rate"?

Where does the beginner, the new kid on the block turn for guidance on what is a "fair rate for a beginner"?

Where does the beginner go to be "evaluated"? What resource says to the beginner:
1. Your voice is too poor for you to enter the market.
2. Your voice is adequate, but you should ask only a modest, fair rate.
3. Don't ever tell anybody you are a beginner. (They will never know unless you tell them!) You are "full market quality".

 

[robnokshus06]

I kinda hear what you people are saying about low pay, low quality, but that is NOT always the case. There are alot of people trying to get in the biz, some of which are better than alot of us. To judge them on how much they charge is ridiculous. Especially since most people that can really tell "good" production from "bad" production are people that are in the biz. The normal listener doesn't really care about the quality of a commercial.

Well that's just stupid. Perhaps there are people trying to get into the biz who are better than YOU and are charging $10 a spot. If you are competing on a price level it is because you can't compete on a quality level. If there is someone who is doing better work than me they are STUPID if they are selling it for $10 a pop. For christ's sake, minimum wage is what, $7.50 an hour? You're saying radio production isn't even worth minimum wage?! Maybe yours isn't. Perhaps you're still in school with mommy and daddy paying your freight and you haven't ventured out into the "real" world yet, but I will tell you this, your employer will judge your performance and measure it by how much they pay you. Same thing with clients.

As for the "normal" listener not caring about the quality of commercials, I call bullshit. Are you going to tell me you have never hit the button when a crappy commercial hit the air? As far as I am concerned, the ultimate critic of our commercials is the listener. Believe me they care.

I've invested a lot in my craft and career. Books, trades, conferences, college, business school. I keep up with current trends in advetising, marketing and radio production. I deliver a quality product to my clients that gets them results, gets me referrals and new business and supports my family. Rest assured you're not stealing any of my business with a $10 spot, but you're not doing yourself any favors either.

Another old axiom to keep in mind; the smaller the client, the bigger the pain in the ass.

Now you'd better get to work, you've got 80 spots to produce to catch up to the one I produced yesterday (I'm taking today off).

 

[unpwn]

Ooo..looks like I hit a nerve. You didn't have to downright insult me, but it's okay. I smiled.
And yeah, I HAVE turned the station when a crappy commercial comes on. BUT, not because it's crappy, because it's a COMMERCIAL! Though, I'm still waiting for listeners to call in requesting we play that new one from Home Depot.
By your response, you're definitely NOT a pro. Sure, you may do good work, but I won't just assume that you don't because you have a different opinion. Why do you think people ARE posting these low pay gigs? Probably because people TAKE them.
And as for school, I finished years ago. And I agree, my employer DOES judge me on my performance..that's probably why they hired me as production director.
I wasn't trying to start some flame war. I just understand and empathize with new blood. Yeah, minimum wage may be 7 something..but are you telling me it takes you an hour to do a spot? I would still take 5 minutes of my time to do a 10 dollar spot. I'm helping someone, getting my voice "out there", and I f'ing love doing it. Sure, I won't put as much effort into it, but that's my decision.
So just relax dude. It's your day off. Go find a radio job. *WINK*

And anyone that has an opportunity to do a 10 dollar spot and is trying to get in the biz, do it. You don't have to do it forever, but it's great demo material and reference.

 

[robnokshus06]

Ooo..looks like I hit a nerve. You didn't have to downright insult me...

Yes, you did hit a nerve, and yes, I did have to insult you.

Really, who are you helping with your 5-minute whiz-bang production? The client? I doubt it. But hey, that 10-bucks will buy you a couple of happy meals, so who am I to judge.

This may come as a surprise to someone like you, (there I go judging, my bad) but I will sometimes spend DAYS working on a commercial. Researching the client's business and market. Writing just the right piece of copy, getting the read just so, creating the music bed. Can be very time consuming to do right, but then I have an interest in doing it right. I take pride in my work and want the client to get results from their advertising.

I'm guessing you whore yourself out because you just don't know any better, don't really know what's out there. Maybe you truly believe your work is only worth 10-bucks. Perhaps you're even overcharging? Go to Barnes and Noble and check out the 2009 Writer's Market and see what the going rate for radio copy is. Pick up a copy of the Voice Over Guide and see what people are paying just to VOICE a commercial and then try to figure in your head what the person putting the whole thing together must be charging. Do you realize you can make over $125 just to read a tag?

I insulted you because you presented yourself as the personification of the type of bottom feeders who are helping to bring radio down with shoddy work and ridiculously low rates, which I find insulting. Personally I would NEVER take a 10-dollar job because that then becomes my rate.

Try this. Next time someone comes in and offers you $10 to produce a spot tell them "I can do it for $50" and see what happens. Sooner than you may think, someone is going to say "OK" Have some self respect and some respect for our industry. That's all I'm saying.

 

[surfdude]

Easy boys. There's radio spots being produced for $10, and radio spots being produced for $20,000 (Bud Light), and everything in between. Local? National? Market size? Union? Original music or jingle? Length of run? Copywriting?Number of voices?

There's not much competition for $10 spots. If that's your marketing plan, have at it. Everybody starts somewhere.
I'd probably aim higher.

 

[jefflaurence]

Yeah no need for a fire war here. There is a valid point made by the always wise Goat-Man..the evaluating is done by the person paying for the product. If they have determined that the 10 buck spot will fill the bill..that's great..and yeah many times I have heard some locally produced work by people who have only been in the industry a year or less..and they are awesome! I need to stay teachable..but rob also makes a solid point by saying that we have all spent money to get going..and that cost has to be worth some return.

The notion that someone doesn't have a "good enough voice" is foolish..I have heard some great work done by voice talent with a very light sounding delivery. You can't tell me that the "Jack FM" imaging voice is HUGE, or that Brian Eubanks was BALLZY..but they are/were making scads of money for thier style..STYLE is what sells. How many guys have you heard that had GREAT round pipes, but couldn't read..or interpret the copy? They are everywhere. I hone my skills every day, and I count the days, and eventually I raise my prices..Not one of us started out making 700 clams for a 30 sec car spot...but there needs to be a realization somewhere along the line that oone's work IS worth more..and those of us with financial responsability need to do so. Finally..I have found that a client WILL pay..if we charge a fair rate, not an inflated rate..a FAIR rate..and if it is too much for them..they will tell you..THEN..and only THEN do I lower my rate..I can always charge less..

Hell I can work for NBC for free!

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I think there is another ingredient to establishing prices that has not been mentioned here. In reading print articles about some of the "super stars" of the voice world, and examining web sites of some very successful people what caught my attention is quick turnaround and anytime availability.

Here is the picture I think I see: if you have the golden voice chords, the golden "voice actor" skill to put image and emotion into the product, and you have the top-of-the-line audio/recording equipment AND you put out the top dollar rate card, there is one additional thing that may be required to get those gigs: Fast turnaround and Anytime Availability. I gather the lifestyle of some of these work-from-my-home-studio with ISDN available, is to ALWAYS be able to turn around an unscheduled client requirement RIGHT NOW. No sneaking out for an afternoon matinee movie. Life can be like a dog tethered with a leash sliding up and down the clothesline.

I have no idea how many clients expect that added ingredient. For folks who recently lost their radio gig and decide to hang out their Voice-Over shingle, but they have to find some run-of-the-mill day-job to pay the rent in the meantime, I assume this limited schedule availability could require accepting recording deals at a slightly lower rate card.

 

[jefflaurence]

Good point..if you do the job on a part time basis..you should expect part time pay. But that 10 bucks will buy a movie ticket and a small popcorn!

 

[VODood]

Goat & Jeff, good points. IMO full timers can still sneak a movie or go shopping. iPhones, email on phones, etc have enabled peeps to be available. It's been my experience (limited) that not many client call and want a session in 5 minutes. Maybe that day or in an hour, but not right away. A re-read or pickup perhaps, but not right away. Sure, there's always an exception. Hell, Joe Cip and Jeff have both done sessions from their cars! Especially if the rate is there

Jeff, thanks for the SC info. Looking into it for home and possible license to use at work as well since we only have ISDN in one studio... and not patchable to others (my studio has my personal mic and processors). So SC here would be great should the need arise. Also can phone patch as well.