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WHDH - Home of the non-existant signal

Ron said:
Oh please. You mean to tell me that their business doesn't mean enough to them to figure out how to install a new transmitter? They're running 1/10th the power. How much can 'the other half' be?
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Where do you get the figure "1/10"th?  Please refer to the FCC power vs frequency curves and the rules regarding maximum TPO for the various bands.
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http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WHDH

WHDH-TV       MA BOSTON                    USA                      

 Licensee: WHDH-TV
 Service Designation: TV   NTSC (analog) television station

 Channel: 7      174 - 180 MHz   Licensed
 ~

    Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 316. kW ERP
 
WHDH-TV       MA BOSTON                    USA             (Digital)

 Licensee: WHDH-TV
 Service Designation: DT   Digital television station

 Channel: 7      174 - 180 MHz   Modification of Construction Permit
~
  Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 29.7 kW ERP
 
This change is as determined by whom?

Understanding there is more nuance in the output power rating: i.e. the maximum power employed by an analog station is engaged by the sync pulse, and the ATSC Digital modulation scheme has its own peculiarities vis a vis power output-who determined that 30kW is the max VS. 300+ kW within the same assigned frequencies would be maximum for performance?




In this case to "figure out how to install a new transmitter" is a simple matter of space.  You cannot place two objects in the same physical space, simple law of physics.  Also there is probably not enough capacity in the electrical feeders.  "But they wont run at the same time" you may say... no electrician who wants to keep his license will connect 800 amps worth of equipment to a 500 amp feeder.  No matter how much you swear up and down and promise they wont run at the same time. 
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Brilliant, Ron. I am well aware of the physical and the metaphysical limitations you speak of. Do you think they could figure all the Electrical Codes, construction permits, etc. in the X amount of years prior to the transition? Chances are they did, and the person explaining away the loss of the signal with different 'equipment issues' than what actually is at play here.

Right now, in the city of Philadelphia, I have the same antenna-(not the highest tech-it's an 18" comm on the roof) I use for DTV hooked up to an analog set, watching the 'nightlight' station (Channel 3). Not a perfect picture, but the level of signal that should produce a clear digital one (according to the hype). Now, Channel 6 in this town is having issues, and (according to someone on the Philly TV board) the FCC is granting them a nominal power increase either today or tomorrow. So there apparently is some thought about the TPO allowed in the 82-88 mHz freq range.
 
raccoonradio said:
Larry from Ch 7 posted again on boston-radio-interest and said they are actually at full power but if you still have trouble w/ Ch 7 there is a help line at 617-248-5500 (leave message if you get recording). I just passed that info along to a friend in Vinnin Sq Salem area (in a high rise but they have no master antenna; he
uses indoor antenna, and can't pick up 7

more info
http://lists.bostonradio.org/pipermail/boston-radio-interest/2009-June/021178.html
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"In the meantime, it seems I posted some erroneous information the other day.
The station is currently broadcasting at it's full licensed power, the part
of the transmitter that remains to be installed is for backup purposes.
Sorry for the confusion, like I said earlier sometimes even those of us at
the station don't have the full info. That is why I urge you to contact the
trouble number if you are having problems and not me."
 
How is the Channel 7 helpline going to do me any good? I already know what they are going to say. They will ask if I have a converter box or a Digital TV. Then they will ask if I re-scanned the channels, then they will ask if I have a VHF antenna attached. Then they will ask me if I've tried to move the antenna around. I've already done it all. I will then have a question for them. Can they boost the power or move the channel back to UHF? They will tell me No. End of call. period.

Oh well. I lost a channel, but they stand a lot more to lose. Who made the dumb decision to move the station back to VHF. This is just a lose lose situation for all.


PS. I didn't lose just one channel. I lost their MOVIE subchannel too! That's another reason I'm upset. Two channels gone with the flick of a switch.
 
The move by WHDH to change their RF channel back to 7 has to be one of the most foolish moves in TV history! :mad: I can no longer get ch. 7.2 - This TV, and it's not available on any station in Providence! I miss the Mister Ed show!!!! Wilbur, where are you!!!! :D
 
alg2468 said:
The move by WHDH to change their RF channel back to 7 has to be one of the most foolish moves in TV history! :mad: I can no longer get ch. 7.2 - This TV, and it's not available on any station in Providence! I miss the Mister Ed show!!!! Wilbur, where are you!!!! :D
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Yeah.. "THIS TV" has now vanished for me and turned into "THIS IS GONE TV." Any chance that WHDH could just go back to UHF again. Would the FCC let them?
 
Skynet74 said:
How is the Channel 7 helpline going to do me any good? I already know what they are going to say. They will ask if I have a converter box or a Digital TV. Then they will ask if I re-scanned the channels, then they will ask if I have a VHF antenna attached. Then they will ask me if I've tried to move the antenna around. I've already done it all. I will then have a question for them. Can they boost the power or move the channel back to UHF? They will tell me No. End of call. period.
Click to expand...

Well, even if somehow you reach the station's owner (Ed Ansin, isn't it?) himself, the person you're talking to doesn't have the authority to boost the power or turn the channel 42 transmitter back on.

If you've done what you say you've done, then you've done all that's going to be possible in the near term.
 
Well I guess viewer complaints about it did some good. I turned my TV on this afternoon and BAM. Suddenly WHDH as well as THIS TV are back. Signals are as good as ever on channel 42. I hope that they keep it this way. I don't want to have to send Ed Ansin another letter. lol

Thanks WHDH for listening. I'm a fan of people who correct problems. You've done good work today!
 
So this is a problem in regards to the model FCC used to calcuate the required power for Channel 7?

I'm curious as to what WHDH would stand to gain by going back to Channel 7. Yes the licensed ERP (now probably shown to be not enough on the VHF side) is considerably different, but how much difference is there in actual transmitter power, can I presume a UHF antenna may have better gain, do other losses (feedline, combiners) make up for it? I'm also presuming they can use a solid-state transmitter on 7 and tubes are still used at UHF (?), so there would be reliability and maintenance issues in favor of VHF? Not to mention they were already transmitting on 42, why change something that was working?
 
trojanrabbit said:
So this is a problem in regards to the model FCC used to calcuate the required power for Channel 7?

I'm curious as to what WHDH would stand to gain by going back to Channel 7. Yes the licensed ERP (now probably shown to be not enough on the VHF side) is considerably different, but how much difference is there in actual transmitter power, can I presume a UHF antenna may have better gain, do other losses (feedline, combiners) make up for it? I'm also presuming they can use a solid-state transmitter on 7 and tubes are still used at UHF (?), so there would be reliability and maintenance issues in favor of VHF? Not to mention they were already transmitting on 42, why change something that was working?
Click to expand...

Pretty much... it worked on paper. Multipath is probably at issue here. Where multipath nulls are in the order of inches on UHF, they are feet on VHF.

Pros of being on 7, less operating cost, less operating complexity, smaller feedlines, less tower loading, better signal propagation, more bang per watt.

Cons.. well we are finding them out now. The analog signal was probably none too good either, I mean if you looked at it with spectrum analyzers and waveform monitors, as that filter between your ears did a pretty good job of getting rid of the artifacts. With digital, there is no "almost".

The FCC originally intended to eliminate the VHF band all together, but they couldnt fit everyone into UHF. So some had to remain on VHF. WHDH-42 is severely limited in power because of my station to the southwest. We accepted interference during enhancement and all that. If my filing goes through, then maybe they can maximize further down the road.
 
Well I for one am able to receive channel 7 digitally on channel 7 and I live nearly 60 miles west of Boston, about 50 miles from the Needham transmitters, in the Worcester hills area, and this despite the fact that am partially blocked towards Boston. So I can't really understand how some viewers in the metro Boston area are unable to receive 7 on 7. As for the problems with VHF digitals, I am able to receive five high VHF digitals with little problem - WHDH from Boston on channel 7, WTNH from New Haven, Connecticut on channel 10, WWLP from Springfield on channel 11, WNAC from Providence on channel 12, and WPRI from Providence on channel 13. I have also been able to receive WEDN from Norwich, CT on channel 9 at times. Perhaps topography has something to do with the ease of reception, but I think the VHF band may be getting an unfair reputation when it comes to digital.
 
smaug07 said:
Well I for one am able to receive channel 7 digitally on channel 7 and I live nearly 60 miles west of Boston, about 50 miles from the Needham transmitters, in the Worcester hills area, and this despite the fact that am partially blocked towards Boston. So I can't really understand how some viewers in the metro Boston area are unable to receive 7 on 7. As for the problems with VHF digitals, I am able to receive five high VHF digitals with little problem - WHDH from Boston on channel 7, WTNH from New Haven, Connecticut on channel 10, WWLP from Springfield on channel 11, WNAC from Providence on channel 12, and WPRI from Providence on channel 13. I have also been able to receive WEDN from Norwich, CT on channel 9 at times. Perhaps topography has something to do with the ease of reception, but I think the VHF band may be getting an unfair reputation when it comes to digital.
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Tell us what kind of antenna you are using and how high up it is. I am sure that is what is making the difference.
 
I was able to pick up WHDH-DT 7 using a non-preamp telescoping rod antenna.
A $2 rod that came with an old TV set.
Once the pre-amp was turned on, it was gone.
 
Necrat said:
I was able to pick up WHDH-DT 7 using a non-preamp telescoping rod antenna.
A $2 rod that came with an old TV set.
Once the pre-amp was turned on, it was gone.
Click to expand...

Without seeing your preamp, as some of them are UHF only and make great attenuators at VHF, this sounds to be like preamp overload.

A frequency, doesnt even need to be close, other than 7, is driving the poor little amp into saturation. Then you get all sorts of horrors like intermodulation distortion and the like.

I would bet, if you put a VHF hi bandpass in front of it, then it would still work on channel 7 (assuming its a VHF preamp).
 
Ron said:
Without seeing your preamp, as some of them are UHF only and make great attenuators at VHF, this sounds to be like preamp overload.

A frequency, doesnt even need to be close, other than 7, is driving the poor little amp into saturation. Then you get all sorts of horrors like intermodulation distortion and the like.

I would bet, if you put a VHF hi bandpass in front of it, then it would still work on channel 7 (assuming its a VHF preamp).
Click to expand...

To answer your questions...
The amplifier does in fact amplify both V/U. I selected it to do so, for "experimental" reasons.
I live in a fairly heavy RF area with a lot of sporadic noise crap , and I assume its the same thing.
I am more convinced it is something downstairs in the neighbor's place that is causing the problems.
(Theyre certanly causing a lot of noise on both the AM and FM bands coming from there, do you think she'd notice if I yanked her electric meter out of the socket?? ;-) ).

I was thinking about doing a VHF bandpass on it or even using a UHF Only amp I have, the problem is the UHF only amp I have doesn't band pass, it traps! So I would've needed to come up with an alternative to that.

With all that said, theyre back on UHF now so my experiments with the VHF are on the backburner.
(Now if I could only convince my neighbor to copper line her place!)

Hopefully your app to go to the ESB goes through so that WHDH-DT can maximize.
 
Necrat said:
I am more convinced it is something downstairs in the neighbor's place that is causing the problems.
(Theyre certanly causing a lot of noise on both the AM and FM bands coming from there, do you think she'd notice if I yanked her electric meter out of the socket?? ;-) ).
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Squiggly bulbs!!

I read somewhere, I forget exactly where, someone was losing a VHF DT at exactly 7:30 and regaining it in the morning. When the husband shut off the outdoor timered squiggly bulb light for some other purpose, the wife found the VHF DT was back!

Personally I have not observed any hash with mine, but I buy nice GE or Philips or some other old name brand from The Depot. I dont buy the cheap ones from the dollar store.
 
Skynet74 said:
smaug07 said:
Well I for one am able to receive channel 7 digitally on channel 7 and I live nearly 60 miles west of Boston, about 50 miles from the Needham transmitters, in the Worcester hills area, and this despite the fact that am partially blocked towards Boston. So I can't really understand how some viewers in the metro Boston area are unable to receive 7 on 7. As for the problems with VHF digitals, I am able to receive five high VHF digitals with little problem - WHDH from Boston on channel 7, WTNH from New Haven, Connecticut on channel 10, WWLP from Springfield on channel 11, WNAC from Providence on channel 12, and WPRI from Providence on channel 13. I have also been able to receive WEDN from Norwich, CT on channel 9 at times. Perhaps topography has something to do with the ease of reception, but I think the VHF band may be getting an unfair reputation when it comes to digital.
Click to expand...


Tell us what kind of antenna you are using and how high up it is. I am sure that is what is making the difference.
Click to expand...

I have a rooftop dual Channel Master antenna system with an 8 bay UHF antenna (that works great), and a suburban combo VHF/UHF antenna that I use just for VHF signals. It is mounted with a rotor on a 10 foot mast at the center peak of my roof with a preamp. (I would say it is about 35 feet above the ground) The overall reception I receive is fantastic and I have been very pleased with Channel Master. I used to have a Radio Shack antenna on the roof and the reception was poor to fair at best.
 
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