Where in North America Can You Hear The Most 50 kw AM Stations at Once?

[Gregg.]

In a separate thread I was remarking how in some places around NYC you could pick up six different CBS-owned 50 kw AM stations. Then Schmave talked about places in the Midwest where you can hear numerous 50 kw stations, where ground conductivity is better. So where would be the best spot in North America to hear the most fulltime 50 kw AM stations at once? Would it be the Hudson Valley, such as Newburgh or Poughkeepsie, where you could pick up both WGY and WPHT?

660 WFAN CBS NYC
710 WOR iHeart NYC
770 WABC Cumulus NYC
810 WGY iHeart Schenectady
880 WCBS CBS NYC
1010 WINS CBS NYC
1030 WBZ CBS Boston
1050 WEPN Disney NYC
1080 WTIC CBS Hartford
1130 WBBR Bloomberg NYC
1210 WPHT CBS Philadelphia
1560 WFME Family Radio NYC

That's twelve 50 kw AM stations able to be picked up by day. Could we top that by going to the middle of Indiana? There you might get the Chicago 50 kw stations, as well as Cincinnati, St. Louis, Nashville, Louisville, maybe Detroit, maybe Cleveland, maybe Des Moines? Perhaps it would be Northern Ohio, where you'd get many of the Toronto stations, as well as Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Wheeling? Or maybe it's South Florida, although we have no idea what the Cuban stations are pumping out, so maybe we'll skip that idea.

And we should limit the test to full time 50 kw stations. In the Atlanta market alone, there are nine stations that run 50 kw by day, although only 750 WSB is 50 kw fulltime. Some of those 50,000 watt Atlanta stations sign off at sunset and many drop down to 1000 watts or less at night.

 

[charlestondxman]

Here in Charleston, only 2 50kw/50kw stations are audible, maybe 3 if you have the right radio. WSB (750) comes in very weakly, as there's nothing else on the frequency for hundreds of miles, and WBT (1110) is a little bit stronger, especially in the winter.

WPTF (680) from Raleigh comes in clear at night (perhaps the strongest skywave), but WOKV (690) from Jacksonville brings such a strong groundwave up the coast that it makes it inaudible daytime.

Somewhere on the Outer Banks or maybe even Virginia Beach would be a spot with a ton of 50kws. You can get 660/710/770/880/1130 from New York, 1500 from Washington, 1090 from Baltimore, 680 Raleigh, 1030 WBZ possibly, 1210 from Philly, WRVA from Richmond, and perhaps WTIC. That's 12.

At Virginia Beach I've heard the first 7 on that list plus WRVA, which comes in HD daytime even into Norfolk and the western part of Virginia Beach.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

I don't think I come remotely close at my location. :/ 50 kW stations I hear here are:

580 - KMJ (night only)
640 - KFI
660 - KTNN (night only)
680 - KNBR (night only, have heard a couple times near midday)
690 - XEWW (but it's 77 kW daytime so I guess it doesn't count?)
700 - KALL (drops to I think 10 kW night; have heard a few times midday)
710 - KSPN (drops to 10 kW night)
720 - KDWN
740 - KBRT (day only)
740 - KCBS (night only)
760 - KFMB (drops to 5 kW daytime)
780 - KKOH (night only)
800 - XEROK (night only)
810 - KGO (night only, have heard a couple times near midday)
820 - WBAP (night only, occasionally, if Mexicali is off)
830 - KLAA (drops to 20 kW at night)
840 - KXNT (drops to 25 kW night)
850 - KOA (night only)
870 - KRLA (drops significantly at night)
880 - KRVN (night only)
900 - XEW (night only, or is it over 50 kW and doesn't count?)
940 - KFIG (or whatever Fresno's call is now, I remember it as KYNO and KFRE)
1000 - KOMO (night only)
1020 - KTNQ
1040 - WHO (night only, only if my local 1040 KURS is off)
1050 - KTCT (night only, occasionally)
1070 - KNX
1080 - KRLD (night only, haven't heard in a while though)
1090 - XEPRS
1100 - KFAX (occasionally; also I don't remember if Vegas is 50 kW, and I may have heard Phoenix now and then too)
1110 - KDIS (drops to 20 kW night)
1150 - KTLK (drops to 44 kW night)
1160 - KSL (night only)
1170 - KCBQ (drops to 2.9 kW night)
1180 - KERN (drops to 10 kW night)
1200 - WOAI (night only, occasionally)
1430 - KMRB (occasionally, drops to 9.8 kW night)
1500 - KSTP (night only, occasionally)
1520 - KOKC (night only, I hear they're on STA for lower power right now?)
1530 - KFBK (night only, sometimes heard midday in winter)
1540 - KMPC (drops to 37 kW night)
1570 - XERF (night only, or is it over 50 kW and thereby doesn't count?)
1580 - KBLA
1580 - KMIK (night only, sometimes midday in winter)

I'm not sure which of those counts for the topic at hand. Something I've been wanting to know (probably for another topic of course) is what places in the USA can you hear a station on every single frequency in the middle of the day, with an armchair-copy listenable signal, on an ordinary inexpensive portable radio (as in not one of the ones with enhanced DSP selectivity, but something like the Sony SRF-M37W, or something less sensitive than that, for example).

 

[gr8oldies]

I'm assuming we aren't specifying I-A or I-B clears, so in East Tennessee (by memory) days it's only weak WSM and WSB.
By night 680-WPTF
690-WOKV (just before sunset)
700-WLW
710 WOR or WAQI (when not buried by Cuban chorus)
740-CFZM
750-WSB

760-WJR
770-WABC
780-WBBM
800-CKLW (rare)
810-WGY
820-WBAP
830-WCCO
840-WHAS
850-KOA
860-CJBC
870-WWL
880-WCBS
890-WLS
940-WCPC (near sunset)
1000-WMVP
1010-CFRB/WINS
1020-KDKA
1030-WBZ
1040-WHO
1060-KYW
1070-WFNI (at day power before sunset)
WFLI
1080 - WTIC
1090 KAAY (though haven't been 50k for awhile)
1100- WTAM (pretty strong at night normally
1120-KMOX if our local daytimer is off
1140-WRVA / KFAQ
1180-WHAM (on rare occasions when daytimer WVLZ signs off )
1190-WOWO daytime power is still 50,000, can get even in WVLZ splash, 9800 watt night power still makes it
1200-WOAI
1210-WPHT
1510-WLAC (night only for the most part)
1530-WCKY
1540-KXEL
1560-WQEW
1580-WPGC or whatever they are, always one of first stations that comes in in winter.

Almost all of these same stations were audible in Dayton, OH

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Just found this KAAY Skywave Service Map. I had seen various versions before. I'm not sure what skywave prediction curves were used, but since the North and South look the same, it appears that the old skywave curves without geomagnetic midpoint correction were used. I thought the 0.5 mV/m 50% Skywave went out further though. I think the old skywave model may be more accurate with the low solar activity of the last few years anyway.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uiIoap97FRY/TxYylhjf4uI/AAAAAAAABYU/kKHEBOEBgQI/s1600/KAAY+Coverage+3a.jpg

 

[cyberdad]

I'll take a stab at this. Not sure if I'm correctly following "the rules", but what I'll do is list 50kw stations audible via skywave at least 50% of the time at my QTH in the northwestern reaches of the Chicago area at night. I'll omit groundwave signals and stations that run 50kw by day and then power down at night. Here goes...

540: CBK Mixing with or underneath WAUK
650: WSM
660: WFAN....This one is problematic. Do we omit it because it can't usually crack WSCR's IBOC? When that's off it's a fairly reliable signal.
690: Montreal (CINF?) Whatever, it's usually there
710: WOR Weak, but present more often than not
740: CFZM Usually rock solid
750 WSB
760 WJR
770 WABC
810 WGY
820 WBAP mixes with WCPT. Null one, get the other
830 WCCO One of the better night signals
840 WHAS
850 KOA
860 CJBC
870 WBBM
880 WCBS Strongest New Yorker
990 CBW Sometimes a pest for local WMVP (1000)
1020 KDKA slightly better signal of late
1030 WBZ until a few months ago. Used to be the best east coast signal until local 1030 commenced nighttime operations
1040 WHO
1060 KYW
1090 KAAY weak....not sure if it's actually 50kw at the moment
1100 WTAM
1120 KMOX may be the best night skywave signal here
1150 CKOC usually under WHBY these days, but clearly identifiable
1140 WRVA
1180 WHAM with Cuba underneath more often than not
1200 WOAI mixing with Chicago 1200....similar to WBAP
1210 WPHT
1510 WLAC
1520 KOKC Should I include this one? It's been doing better with the non-directional STA. But when at 50kw, it's still usually audible in the mix
1530 WCKY It's a monster before they go to their DA at Sacremento sunset. After that, it's so-so, but reliable
1540 KXEL Usually one of the better night signals, but sometimes prone to fading.

 

[radioman148]

From about 30 miles or so east of you I concur with most everything you said. The only exceptions at my location is that WABC gets blown away by WBBM's IBOC. I used to hear WABC very well. Regarding WCBS, it is & for me has always been the best NYC signal. WBZ still is the best east coast signal at my location.

 

[dtvdxer]

Just found this KAAY Skywave Service Map. I thought the 0.5 mV/m 50% Skywave went out further though. I think the old skywave model may be more accurate with the low solar activity of the last few years anyway.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uiIoap97FRY/TxYylhjf4uI/AAAAAAAABYU/kKHEBOEBgQI/s1600/KAAY+Coverage+3a.jpg

I use a rule of thumb of 700-750 miles for 50kw skywave. The curves you reference go out about 950 miles, which would seem about right given the tightly directional KAAY signal with an effective power of 200+ kw.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The 750 miles refers to a typical Class I-A nondirectional facility using an antenna in the 195 degree range, using the old 50% Skywave Curves. These are still used in international treaties to protect stations from other countries. The new skywave prediction curves using a geomagnetic midpoint latitude show much lower skywave values at higher latitudes, and protected skywaves only going out 450 or 500 miles for those same stations at higher latitudes in the contiguous 48 states. Stations like WSB show the 750 mile skywave service to the South. If you look at patterns like the old 50 kW WOWO which are symmetrical, it looks like it radiates more to the South than to the North. However, solar activity has been usually so low the last few years that the old skywave curves may be more accurate at this time.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I would guess that nighttime skywave - anywhere in the Ohio Valley would be in range of at least 25 to 30 50 kW stations. Some of the posts above bear that out.

Daytime in Jackson, Michigan - all the Chicago clears, WJR, WLW, probably some others I wasn't looking for under these parameters. I would think that equidistant from New York City to Boston would yield good daytime results. I was stranded at a rest stop in CT waiting for a major wreck to clear a bridge in NYC - and had several hours to DX in the rent car. The band was quite packed, as you would expect. All of the high power Boston stations were still there, all the NYC high power, WTIC, of course. Don't know what others in the parameters of this search, but it was certainly a great DX spot.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

Bruce, what about Lubbock, TX?

 

[gar hi]

I've never counted how many 50 kw stations I can get at night but the west coast of Florida is in a unique position to where stations can be heard from the south, northeast, mid west, the center of the country, and parts of the west too.

In addition to regulars from the eastern half of the country, I've also heard KOA, KSL, KFI, and KNX more than just once or twice.

 

[davideduardo]

I've never counted how many 50 kw stations I can get at night but the west coast of Florida is in a unique position to where stations can be heard from the south, northeast, mid west, the center of the country, and parts of the west too.

In addition to regulars from the eastern half of the country, I've also heard KOA, KSL, KFI, and KNX more than just once or twice.

You also might consider counting how many Cuban, Mexican, Colombian and Venezuelan 50 kw and above stations you can get. On a good evening in South Florida back when I lived there 50 kw stations (and above) on almost every channel from 540 to 1000 could be heard, with a few (Cubans) above 1000 kHz also (Colombia does not grant 50 kw above 1000 and Venezuela still appears to do the same).

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Here are all the former Class I-As in the US I have heard in Michigan since the 1960s.

KFI 640
WSM 650
WNBC/WFAN 660
WMAQ/WSCR 670
WLW 700
WGN 720
WSB 750
WJR 760
WABC 770
WBBM 780
WFAA/WBAP 820
WCCO 830
WHAS 840
WWL 870
WCBS 880
WLS 890
KDKA 1020
WBZ 1030
WHO 1040
KYW/WKYC/WWWE/WTAM 1100
KMOX 1120
KSL 1160
WHAM 1180
WOAI 1200
WCAU/WOGL/WPHT 1210

Here are all the former Class I-Bs in the US I have heard in Michigan since the 1960s.

KNBR 680
WOR 710
WGY 810
KOA 850
WCFL/WMVP 1000
KYW 1060
KNX 1070
WTIC 1080
KRLD 1080
WBAL 1090
KAAY 1090
WBT 1110
KFAB 1110
WNEW/WBBR 1130
KWKH 1130
WRVA 1140
WWVA 1170
KVOO/KFAQ 1170
WOWO 1190 (Sadly, no longer a Class A/Class I-B)
WTOP 1500
KSTP 1500
WLAC 1510
WKBW/WWKB 1520
KOMA/KOKC 1520
WCKY 1530
KXEL 1540
WQXR/WQEW/WFME 1560
KPMC/KNZR 1560 (Now 25000 Watts Day, 10000 Watts Night)

 

[cyberdad]

From about 30 miles or so east of you I concur with most everything you said. The only exceptions at my location is that WABC gets blown away by WBBM's IBOC. I used to hear WABC very well. Regarding WCBS, it is & for me has always been the best NYC signal. WBZ still is the best east coast signal at my location.

I'm able to null WBBM, which on most nights is just enough to let WABC in. I can similarly null WGN, which creates an opening for WOR, which is much weaker than WABC and close to the 50% threshold I put on my list. WOR probably wouldn't be able to break through if WGN was still running IBOC. WSCR is the most difficult of the Chicago big boys to null, but WFAN is just strong enough to sneak in once in a while. As for WBZ, my local 1030 is two miles from my house. I am in the null of their 210-watt figure eight north-south pattern. WBZ sometimes does break through underneath, but most nights it does not. That null extends right to where you are (Radioman), so I can see where 1030 would be wide open for WBZ at your location.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Other 50000 Watt stations I have heard since the 1960s. Note that I am not making a distinction about night power, considering that stations with as little as 5000 watts or even less input power have major lobe maximum IDFs above 50000 watts equivalent referenced to the Class B minimum efficiency. I may point out that at least one Class A station licensed as 50000 watts night does not use a full 50000 watt input power.

WGTO/WFLF 540 (50/46) CH/PSS
WTCM 580 (50/1.1) CH
WTMJ 620 (50/10)
WPTF 680 CH
WVOK/WJOX 690 (50/0.5) CH
WHB 810 (50/5) CH
WJW/WKNR 850 (50/4.4)
KRVN 880 CH/STA
WFDF 910 (50/25)
WCPC 940 (50/0.25) CH
WWJ 950
WTEM (50/5) CH
WINS 1010 CH/Night
WWGB 1030 CH
WHN/WEPN 1050 CH/Night
WIBC/WFNI 1070 (50/10) Night During Emergency 50 kW on Day Pattern
WEEP/WWNL (50 Day/25 CH) 1080 CH
WCAR/WDFN 1130 (50/10)
WISN 1130 (50/10) CH
KFAN 1130 (50/25) CH
WJJD/WYLL 1160 (Formerly 50/5, Limited Time 50 until KSL SS, 50 WATT Special PSRA Service) Available All Hours On Air Before WFEN/WCXI Came On In 1985
WCHB 1200 (50/15)
WLDR/WJNL 1210 (50 Day/2.5 CH) Daytime Skywave
WGAR/WHKW 1220
WXYZ/WXYT 1270
WOV/WADO 1280 (50/7.2) CH, Possibly on STA, N (5 kW)
WIL/KZQZ 1430 (50/5) CH
WJBK/WCZY/WLQV 1500 (50/10)
WMEX 1510 Formerly (50/5) Nighttime in 1960s-1970s
WPTR/WDCD 1540 Night
WPGC/WJFK 1580 (50/0.27) CH

Others Are 50 kW Fulltime or Daytime Only If Power Not Specified. May not include all stations logged, as in recent years, noise levels mainly allow DXing only in the car, and these were often not logged in written form.

If time of day is not noted, station is available at virtually all times.

 

[KML0224]

I don't seem to fare that well in central Connecticut:

WFAN-AM 660 New York City (usually strong, thank to their tower on High Island in the Bronx.)
WOR-AM 710 New York City (northern NJ site doesn't do well here.)
WABC-AM 770 New York City (see WOR-AM.)
WGY-AM 810 Schenectady, NY (very weak, even when the radio's antenna is sitting far away from the laptop screen or radio's power cord.)
WCBS-AM 880 New York City (see WFAN-AM...although local 910 AM will step on them if the antenna gets moved at all.)
WINS-AM 1010 New York City (see WOR-AM...fights with 1010 AM of Toronto at night.)
WBZ-AM 1030 Boston (very weak, since most of the daytime signal path is over land.)
WTIC-AM 1080 Hartford (OF COURSE!)
WBBR-AM 1130 New York City (very weak, almost never get it during the day.)

 

[radioman148]

I'm able to null WBBM, which on most nights is just enough to let WABC in. I can similarly null WGN, which creates an opening for WOR, which is much weaker than WABC and close to the 50% threshold I put on my list. WOR probably wouldn't be able to break through if WGN was still running IBOC. WSCR is the most difficult of the Chicago big boys to null, but WFAN is just strong enough to sneak in once in a while. As for WBZ, my local 1030 is two miles from my house. I am in the null of their 210-watt figure eight north-south pattern. WBZ sometimes does break through underneath, but most nights it does not. That null extends right to where you are (Radioman), so I can see where 1030 would be wide open for WBZ at your location.

I can occasionally hear WOR if I null WGN, but it is very weak here. Years ago it used to be much stronger. Before WBBM's IBOC, WABC was quite strong here and just a tad below WCBS. Now I don't hear it at my QTH, but if I'm up in Wisconsin it comes in great.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The only time I heard WIBC 1070 was during a snowstorm when they couldn't change patterns by remote control. It was an emergency, which probably also would have permitted them to use high power after sunset. The IDF toward Michigan is roughly he equivalent of 5000 watts in the day pattern.

Oddly enough, WERK 990, a daytimer in Muncie, IN was coming in at about the same strength with just 250 watts from a six tower array beamed North, probably with the equivalent of about 2500 watts. They were also operating at night under the emergency provision.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Bruce, what about Lubbock, TX?

The ground conductivity doesn't help with nighttime skywave. WCBS and WBZ were formerly possible from West Texas at night, of course the Chicago stations, midwest stations like WLW, WSM, WHAS, WSB. But if you are looking for sheer numbers of 50 kW stations receivable at night, the population density in the West really hurts you. Denver has KOA, ABQ had KKOB, Salt Lake City KSL. It is a fairly good location for KFI and KNX, but you start to have trouble with places like San Francisco and North - just too far away to overcome Soanish language interference. Same with Eastern Seaboard stations, New England, etc. There are a LOT of Spanish language stations. There are multiple scenarios like that, making Lubbock less than ideal for nighttime skywave.

I have no further reason to go back to West Texas, so I don't know if the situation has gotten better or worse in the past 9 years. Probably worse as more ridiculous stations are shoe-horned into a band already ridiculously overcrowded.