Which is the “best” FM/TV transmitting site in the Pacific Northwest?

[fordranger797]

Hi everyone-

I was curious about some of the famous transmitting sites in the Pacific Northwest, including Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia. I was wondering which city has the best location, and what makes some of these locations superior or problematic from an engineering perspective.

Here are some of the sites up for debate:

Cougar Mountain (Seattle)
*arguably one of the best locations with its close proximity to Seattle, access to reliable power, little shadowing across the market, and being low (around 1,200 feet) enough for stations to run near 100kw for maximum building penetration. I don’t really see any downside of this site, other than the fact that it’s nearly impossible to get any other stations to use it due to complaints that were received (thanks to Kelly A for educating me on that topic).

Tiger Mountain (Seattle)
*also one of the best locations with extreme height (HAAT varying around 2,392). While these stations have to run a lower ERP, they seem to enjoy coverage that is equal to cougar mountain. The main issues here are accessibility, unreliable power, and shadowing in the market with cougar mountain being right in front).

West Hills (Portland)
*A very good site, perhaps superior to Portland’s Stonehenge tower. Little shadowing issues in the Portland market.

Mount Seymour (Vancouver, BC).
*A unique site positioned in extremely close proximity to Vancouver. High up, with a HAAT of around 2,000 feet for many stations. The biggest problem I see here is that the site is backed up against the mountains in the north side of the market, leaving some areas with shadowing.

From the perspective of an expert, is any particular site a standout from the others? It seems like each site serves its purpose well, but perhaps some are less than ideal.

 

[Kelly A]

Hi everyone-

I was curious about some of the famous transmitting sites in the Pacific Northwest, including Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia. I was wondering which city has the best location, and what makes some of these locations superior or problematic from an engineering perspective.

Here are some of the sites up for debate:

I think you summed up the upsides and downsides fairly. Only things I would add, is the height of Cougar and W. Tiger. Including tower heights, Cougar is close to 1,850ft and W. Tiger is around 2,800ft AMSL.

 

[Kelly A]

I'll toss in one, maybe more controversial, site:

Three Sisters Mt. Near Enumclaw, WA.
The original occupant was KBRD 103.7 licensed to Tacoma, WA. As I recall the AMSL was something like 3,300ft.
Upside of 'The Sisters' was the height and location took advantage to the South to North 'geological trough', allowing the FM signal to have line-of-site right up the I-5/I-405 corridor. KBRD used to have listeners well up into Snohomish County.

The downsides:
* You had to generate your own power 24/7. At least at the time, the cost of generating your own power was about the same as amortizing the cost of blasting a trench in the mountain rock for running a power line, and paying utility costs. One could argue that even through a PITA, there's something to be said for generating your own power from a pure reliability perspective alone.
* Access to the site could be as bad, if not worse that W. Tiger. At least there was a place to land a helicopter when required. WTM doesn't have that option.

Once Tacoma and Seattle were market merged, everyone wanted signal parity, which meant your choice was really Cougar, or WTM. Because of the height and location between mountain ranges, I still give Three Sisters the advantage in pure square miles covered with a listenable signal.

 

[fordranger797]

I'll toss in one, maybe more controversial, site:

Three Sisters Mt. Near Enumclaw, WA.
The original occupant was KBRD 103.7 licensed to Tacoma, WA. As I recall the AMSL was something like 3,300ft.
Upside of 'The Sisters' was the height and location took advantage to the South to North 'geological trough', allowing the FM signal to have line-of-site right up the I-5/I-405 corridor. KBRD used to have listeners well up into Snohomish County.

The downsides:
* You had to generate your own power 24/7. At least at the time, the cost of generating your own power was about the same as amortizing the cost of blasting a trench in the mountain rock for running a power line, and paying utility costs. One could argue that even through a PITA, there's something to be said for generating your own power from a pure reliability perspective alone.
* Access to the site could be as bad, if not worse that W. Tiger. At least there was a place to land a helicopter when required. WTM doesn't have that option.

Once Tacoma and Seattle were market merged, everyone wanted signal parity, which meant your choice was really Cougar, or WTM. Because of the height and location between mountain ranges, I still give Three Sisters the advantage in pure square miles covered with a listenable signal.

I’m not sure of where the exact location for Three Sisters Mountain is, but I imagine that this site has quite a bit in common with the old Rooster Rock site in Lewis County. While that site is also incredibly unique, the power supply was always a significant problem. Additionally, accessibility was an issue as well.
The other south sound sites (Capitol Peak and South Mountain) aren’t terrible, but stations that transmit from these sites are almost exclusively south sound signals due to the topography of the region.

In the north sound, Mount Constitution is another site that really stands out to me. The only problem, of course, is that cross-border rules make it difficult for any company to make it worth their while.

 

[Kelly A]

I’m not sure of where the exact location for Three Sisters Mountain is, but I imagine that this site has quite a bit in common with the old Rooster Rock site in Lewis County.

Three Sisters was higher and a little further North than Rooster. Unlike Sisters, Rooster had utility power running to the site, but was very old and prone to failure. That's the main reason Rooster was essentially abandoned.

The other south sound sites (Capitol Peak and South Mountain) aren’t terrible, but stations that transmit from these sites are almost exclusively south sound signals due to the topography of the region.

Other than skating by Line A-Canadian borders issues, I've never been impressed with anything on Capitol Peak, especially as it relates to the Seattle/Tacoma metro. Capitol has some serious shadows in key hot zip codes like: Kent, Auburn, Maple Valley, Southcenter Lake Washington East Waterfront, areas of Bellevue, and Issaquah. It's for that reason, no station located on Capitol Peak has made much of a dent in the overall metro.

In the north sound, Mount Constitution is another site that really stands out to me. The only problem, of course, is that cross-border rules make it difficult for any company to make it worth their while.

Constitution is a great site for Bellingham, Sedro Wooley, (which who really cares), and across into Vancouver and Victoria. As you pointed out, there's essentially zero opportunities from a business perspective anymore North of the border.

 

[fordranger797]

Three Sisters was higher and a little further North than Rooster. Unlike Sisters, Rooster had utility power running to the site, but was very old and prone to failure. That's the main reason Rooster was essentially abandoned.

Other than skating by Line A-Canadian borders issues, I've never been impressed with anything on Capitol Peak, especially as it relates to the Seattle/Tacoma metro. Capitol has some serious shadows in key hot zip codes like: Kent, Auburn, Maple Valley, Southcenter Lake Washington East Waterfront, areas of Bellevue, and Issaquah. It's for that reason, no station located on Capitol Peak has made much of a dent in the overall metro.

Constitution is a great site for Bellingham, Sedro Wooley, (which who really cares), and across into Vancouver and Victoria. As you pointed out, there's essentially zero opportunities from a business perspective anymore North of the border.

Thanks for clarifying, Kelly. I think that I’d rather set up on South Mountain than Capitol Peak, simply because it moves your transmitter slightly closer to Seattle and gives you a more direct shot into the western portion of the metro. With that being said, most of the coverage is still wasted if you ask me. Not to mention, I’ve been told that there is literally no space left up there for anybody new. As for Capitol Peak, you’re absolutely right; signals are almost unlistenable by the time you hit Seattle.

Unfortunately I’m not an engineer, and therefore I can’t think of any other site that could be used by any of these signals that share a co-channel in Vancouver or Victoria (like 93.7, 97.7, 99.3, 96.1, 98.5, etc and 96.9 on Maxwell Hill). Unless you’re specifically marketing yourself to the south sound, either location is far from ideal.

As for Mount Constitution, it’s a great site, possibly one of the best in the region. If you were a Canadian broadcaster who wanted to hit Vancouver and Victoria at the same time, it’s the spot to go. Of course, the only one arguably doing that is KWPZ.

 

[boiseengineer]

KXLY (KXLY-FM also) on Mt Spokane.
HAAT: 936 m (3071 ft.)
Electrical Beam Tilt: 2 degrees
R/C AGL: 54 m (177 ft.)
R/C AMSL: 1840 m (6037 ft.)
Site Elevation: 1786 m. (5860 ft.)
Nearly everyone else is on Krell Hill SE of Spokane.

 

[RF101]

Great thread! Thank you! Question: Was there ever a broadcaster on Rooster Rock in Lewis County? All i see now on Google Earth is a solar-assisted cell tower up there.

Regarding South Mountain , I wonder if the capacity logjam up there can be resolved. Is there a federal agency blocking expansion or are the tower companies just constraining the market?

 

[fordranger797]

Great thread! Thank you! Question: Was there ever a broadcaster on Rooster Rock in Lewis County? All i see now on Google Earth is a solar-assisted cell tower up there.

Regarding South Mountain , I wonder if the capacity logjam up there can be resolved. Is there a federal agency blocking expansion or are the tower companies just constraining the market?

You are welcome! I’ve always been interested in some of the mountain microwave sites that we have in the Pacific Northwest.

KXXO used to use that site up until the AC power became too unreliable. I believe that the site has since been abandoned and is used be the forest service. That site was incredibly unique, as it seems too far away too make an impact in the south sound, yet the coverage is arguably better than Capitol Peak. As for your second question, I am not sure why space is an issue. Perhaps Kelly can answer that.

 

[fordranger797]

KXLY (KXLY-FM also) on Mt Spokane.
HAAT: 936 m (3071 ft.)
Electrical Beam Tilt: 2 degrees
R/C AGL: 54 m (177 ft.)
R/C AMSL: 1840 m (6037 ft.)
Site Elevation: 1786 m. (5860 ft.)
Nearly everyone else is on Krell Hill SE of Spokane.

That’s quite an amazing site! The only issue that I can see with mount spokane is that many antenna users probably have their directional antennas pointed towards Krell Hill. It’s not a problem at all for KXLY-FM though.

 

[RF101]

The push to re-locate KXXO off Rooster Rock was also brought about by getting the approval (Table of Allocations, etc.) for then-KWLZ Warm Springs to move into the Portland market (West Linn). Rooster Rock and Portland's West Hills are just too close for a co-channel arrangement. Old KXXO contour maps show that former Lewis County site was indeed remote but launched a massive signal.

The original proposal called for KXXO to move to South Mountain, not Capitol Peak where I understand it sits now,

 

[fordranger797]

The push to re-locate KXXO off Rooster Rock was also brought about by getting the approval (Table of Allocations, etc.) for then-KWLZ Warm Springs to move into the Portland market (West Linn). Rooster Rock and Portland's West Hills are just too close for a co-channel arrangement. Old KXXO contour maps show that former Lewis County site was indeed remote but launched a massive signal.

The original proposal called for KXXO to move to South Mountain, not Capitol Peak where I understand it sits now,

Indeed, Rooster Rock was a great location to broadcast from (aside from the power supply issues). I’ve heard that the signal was audible as far north as Vancouver BC at times, which doesn’t even seem fathomable to me. Not to mention, if you wanted your signal to perform in Seattle, you’re better off transmitting from a location closer to the east than the west. Capitol Peak and South Mountain struggle severely in the eastern portions of the market.

 

[RF101]

I noticed North Three Sisters still has an registered tower there, licensed to King County IT Department, There is also a mountaintop site east of Enumclaw that holds translators for CSN and KACS.

Regarding Mt Seymour (Vancouver BC) it's a great site indeed. To prevent reflections off the higher elevations, the typical broadcast antenna up there is a multi-panel affair with a serious backside null. CFBT's null is -19 dB, CFMI's is -38, CFOX is -31, CBUF is -19, etc.

 

[fordranger797]

I noticed North Three Sisters still has an registered tower there, licensed to King County IT Department, There is also a mountaintop site east of Enumclaw that holds translators for CSN and KACS.

Regarding Mt Seymour (Vancouver BC) it's a great site indeed. To prevent reflections off the higher elevations, the typical broadcast antenna up there is a multi-panel affair with a serious backside null. CFBT's null is -19 dB, CFMI's is -38, CFOX is -31, CBUF is -19, etc.

While I don’t have an engineering background, what you are saying makes very good sense when it comes to mount Seymour. I’ve been up there a few times, and it seems like all of towers are positioned on the cliff side, with a significant mass of land behind them. The overall coverage is excellent in the metro area, though reception is shadowed by mount cypress.

 

[dxsphere]

Mission Peak above Wenatchee is home to KPQ 102.1, KNWR 90.7 and KPLW 89.9. It doesn't take much ERP to blanket the central third of the state.

In Tri-Cities, nearly every FM & TV station in the market transmits from one these locations: Jump Off Joe, Johnson Butte (both above Kennewick), Badger Mountain (above Richland) and Pikes Peak (above Walla Walla). There are a few exceptions of course. The full-powered stations that transmit from above Kennewick and Pikes Peak generally have good reception across huge swaths of Eastern WA and Eastern OR.

 

[crainbebo]

Seconded on Mission Ridge/Peak. KPQ 102.1 is on an LP STA of 5KW but I can still hear them in spots even as Yakima has multiple ridges in the way of the signal. At 35KW regular power, they are easy to pick up.

I thought KPLW was still on a transmitter at 3900 feet above Rock Island? If they were on Mission Peak, KLWS would have no choice but to relocate their Ellensburg translator on 89.9. PLR could add tons of new listeners in Kittitas County (91.1 is pretty multipathed there) and maybe even launch a translator at Cle Elum. It may even affect the Air 1 translator here in Yakima (K210CX).

 

[RF101]

The new KZJJ 104.5 Mesa-Pasco ended up on a short tower hidden in an orchard on the southern edge of Jackass Mountain. Surprisingly not chosen was a much taller cell tower along Mahler Ridge to the north of there, They reach into the Tri-Cities which is all that really counts for this Class C3.

 

[boiseengineer]

Deer Point NNE of Boise get honorable mention.
~2800' above average terrain.
20 full or near Class C FM
8 FM translators
6 full power TV
5 Low Power TV

 

[valvashon]

Not a super big fan of West Tiger. It's been two weeks plus since we have been able to get up to that site. If we really had to get up there for something we could ask AccelNet for a ride in their sno-cat thing but it just seems uncomfortable being cut off from your transmitter like that. It's nice to have solid state everything and our own generator.

 

[boiseengineer]

I thought KPLW was still on a transmitter at 3900 feet above Rock Island? If they were on Mission Peak, KLWS would have no choice but to relocate their Ellensburg translator on 89.9. PLR could add tons of new listeners in Kittitas County (91.1 is pretty multipathed there) and maybe even launch a translator at Cle Elum. It may even affect the Air 1 translator here in Yakima (K210CX).