Why Do News and Sports Formats Do So Poorly in LA Ratings?

[SuperRadioFan]

"White flight" and "white fear" are terms that hosts on KFI use.

You need to retract that statement. I have never heard Bill Handel, John and Ken, John Ziegler, and Wayne Resnick use either term. I am a regular listener and I doubt you could say the same, so therefore I must conclude all you are going by is hearsay!

The fact is, KFI has used, very sucessfully, the immigration issue to parlay themselves into the top couple of positions in the ratings by dedicating hours and hours of every day to immigration issues. The mayor of LA, Antonio Villaraigosa, is referred to as "Villalaraza" and "Villareconquista" to fan the flames.

And you don't like that?? Well that's entertainment but there is truth in jest. But they are talking about a mayor who makes ZERO distinction between legal and illegal immigrants.

I think such an approach is despicable because they are not discussing issues, but, rather, talking about the perception that Hispanics are dumb, have a separatist agenda, are dirty, are all criminals, etc. Their playbook reads like the "find a scapegoat" tactics of the National Socialists in Germany prior to W.W. II, and that makes me object to the content. I do not object to thier freedom to do it, and I find that they do what they do skillfully with a magnificently produced radio station. But I disagree with the content, just as I disagreed with the content of George Wallace's statements .

LOL so now you're comparing KFI hosts with Nazis and segregationists!!??!!

Clearly, you are not a regular listener and you add NOTHING to the debate without acknowledging that the whole immigration issue has to do with ILLEGAL immigration!!

Opinions on immigration are a dime a dozen. So here are my $0.0085 cents worth. There is no way to deport 10 to 12 million people.

No shittt, Sherlock! No one really expects that could happen, but amnesty granted IMHO will just about guarantee another huge migration from South of the Border.

At the present growth rate, LA will be 50% Hispanic in about 8 years. That is a reality, not a wish or a desire. Radio stations exist to serve profitable sectors of the audience, and that will mean that there will be more Spanish language stations.

But NOT 50% dominant Spanish I would presume. And is that just within the city limits of LA?

BTW David, how do the spot rates compare between similarly rated Spanish language stations and English language stations?

 

[davideduardo]

"White flight" and "white fear" are terms that hosts on KFI use.

You need to retract that statement. I have never heard Bill Handel, John and Ken, John Ziegler, and Wayne Resnick use either term. I am a regular listener and I doubt you could say the same, so therefore I must conclude all you are going by is hearsay!

The fact is, KFI has used, very sucessfully, the immigration issue to parlay themselves into the top couple of positions in the ratings by dedicating hours and hours of every day to immigration issues. The mayor of LA, Antonio Villaraigosa, is referred to as "Villalaraza" and "Villareconquista" to fan the flames.

And you don't like that?? Well that's entertainment but there is truth in jest. But they are talking about a mayor who makes ZERO distinction between legal and illegal immigrants.

I think such an approach is despicable because they are not discussing issues, but, rather, talking about the perception that Hispanics are dumb, have a separatist agenda, are dirty, are all criminals, etc. Their playbook reads like the "find a scapegoat" tactics of the National Socialists in Germany prior to W.W. II, and that makes me object to the content. I do not object to thier freedom to do it, and I find that they do what they do skillfully with a magnificently produced radio station. But I disagree with the content, just as I disagreed with the content of George Wallace's statements .

LOL so now you're comparing KFI hosts with Nazis and segregationists!!??!!

Clearly, you are not a regular listener and you add NOTHING to the debate without acknowledging that the whole immigration issue has to do with ILLEGAL immigration!!

Opinions on immigration are a dime a dozen. So here are my $0.0085 cents worth. There is no way to deport 10 to 12 million people.

No shittt, Sherlock! No one really expects that could happen, but amnesty granted IMHO will just about guarantee another huge migration from South of the Border.

At the present growth rate, LA will be 50% Hispanic in about 8 years. That is a reality, not a wish or a desire. Radio stations exist to serve profitable sectors of the audience, and that will mean that there will be more Spanish language stations.

But NOT 50% dominant Spanish I would presume. And is that just within the city limits of LA?

BTW David, how do the spot rates compare between similarly rated Spanish language stations and English language stations?

I am a talk radio junkie, coming from having programmed quite a few of that kind of station and having been the head of AM programming for what is now Univison Radio for several years. So, I listen to KFI a lot... probably enough to make me a P1 to them. I happen to think that they do have about the best n/t news department I have heard, and the station is incredibly well produced.

I have heard plenty of mentions over the last few years of "white flight" and "white fear" in the shows. A few weeks ago, on a Friday as I was driving to the Desert, John and Ken were discussing the net decrease in non-Hispanic white population of the market.

It is not the mayor's job in any city to enforce immigration law. That is the Federal Government's responsability and authority. So you can hardly expect the mayor to become the "migra" and start staging raids on businesses.

I do think it is inappropriate for a radio station to create out of the Hispanic population a scapegoat... a group to blame... for everything that is wrong in LA and California. Trying to single out a group as responsible for all manner of problems may be entertaining to those who don't understand economics, but is not good for the community.

The LA Metro is currently 42% Hispanic in 12+ and close to 45% in all ages; by just after 2010 the total population will be 50% Hispanic, and the 12+ will be at 50% by about 2012.

The top Spanish langauge stations are at about 1:1 power ratios. This is way behind Houston, for example, where KLTN has a 1.28 to 1 ratio, and Miami, where WAMR has a nearly 1.5 to 1 ratio. In other words, outperforming the average for the market. While we do not get the ratios of KOST or KROQ, Hispanic media is the only growth segment in radio int he last two years.

 

[briancraig]

The children and grandchildren of the current group of immigrants will most likely be fans of American sports. The power of American culture on the next generation is usually pretty overwhelming.

The last L.A. sporting event I attended was a Clippers game back in March at the Staples Center. The crowd was probably at least 60 percent ethnic. I went with a Hispanic friend. All of the people on the row behind us were Asian. It was the absolute opposite of the Academy Award winning film, Crash.

The lack of a NFL team in L.A. has absolutely nothing to do with the market being 70% ethnic. It is mainly the lack of the will to build a new stadium.

David, you are smart enough to know that in a DMA of 5,300,000 households there is room for a NFL team.

A new NFL team (even in a dump like the Coliseum) would outdraw the Galaxy by a huge margin.

 

[davideduardo]

David, you are smart enough to know that in a DMA of 5,300,000 households there is room for a NFL team.

A new NFL team (even in a dump like the Coliseum) would outdraw the Galaxy by a huge margin.

The new MLS team, Chivas America, is outdrawing the Galaxy already. The Galaxy has limited Hispanic appeal, so there is no core partisan group. Chivas, due to its relationship with Civas from Guadalajara, has a built in fan base of millions. But you are right... anything could outdraw the Galaxy.

I presume you are calculating the household number from beyond the LA metro (LA and Orange County) which is reasonable... football fans fromt he IE and Ventura end even Bakersfield would come to games. Still, this is not a particularly good sports town and I wonder if the increased tax revenue would pay the costs of building the stadium.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

The fact is, KFI has used, very sucessfully, the immigration issue to parlay themselves into the top couple of positions in the ratings by dedicating hours and hours of every day to immigration issues. The mayor of LA, Antonio Villaraigosa, is referred to as "Villalaraza" and "Villareconquista" to fan the flames.

And you don't like that?? Well that's entertainment but there is truth in jest. But they are talking about a mayor who makes ZERO distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. .........
you add NOTHING to the debate without acknowledging that the whole immigration issue has to do with ILLEGAL immigration!!

....... It is not the mayor's job in any city to enforce immigration law. That is the Federal Government's responsability and authority. So you can hardly expect the mayor to become the "migra" and start staging raids on businesses.

WHERE did I say that the mayor has to enforce Federal Law?? Although one would hope any mayor would not take contrary action to Federal law.

At the present growth rate, LA will be 50% Hispanic in about 8 years. That is a reality, not a wish or a desire. Radio stations exist to serve profitable sectors of the audience, and that will mean that there will be more Spanish language stations.

I'll ask again (since you are around!):
But NOT 50% dominant Spanish I would presume. And is that just within the city limits of LA?

BTW David, how do the spot rates compare between similarly rated Spanish language stations and English language stations?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Still, this is not a particularly good sports town and I wonder if the increased tax revenue would pay the costs of building the stadium.

What do you consider to be "a particularly good sports town" anyway??

Hmmmm let's see .... the Dodgers average 48,000 per game (are in contention for their 2nd division title in 3 years), the Angels average 42,000+ per game with many sell-outs and are in contention for postseason for the 4th time in 5 years, the Lakers are always sold out and usually make the playoffs, the Clippers are there now too, the Kings do quite well, even though the last season they didn't meet expectations, the Ducks do well and went a few rounds into the playoffs, USC football team made the Championship game after winning 30+ games in a row, UCLA is also strong in football and basketball, the Cal State Fullerton Titans baseball team won a championship a few years ago and have made it to the College World Series for 4 years or so straight, .....

You get my point, don't you?? What "town" are you talking about anyway?

 

[davideduardo]

Still, this is not a particularly good sports town and I wonder if the increased tax revenue would pay the costs of building the stadium.

What do you consider to be "a particularly good sports town" anyway??

Hmmmm let's see .... the Dodgers average 48,000 per game (are in contention for their 2nd division title in 3 years), the Angels average 42,000+ per game with many sell-outs and are in contention for postseason for the 4th time in 5 years, the Lakers are always sold out and usually make the playoffs, the Clippers are there now too, the Kings do quite well, even though the last season they didn't meet expectations, the Ducks do well and went a few rounds into the playoffs, USC football team made the Championship game after winning 30+ games in a row, UCLA is also strong in football and basketball, the Cal State Fullerton Titans baseball team won a championship a few years ago and have made it to the College World Series for 4 years or so straight, .....

You get my point, don't you?? What "town" are you talking about anyway?

You have a good point on attendance. What started this thread was the observation that LA is not a good town for spots RADIO.

40,000 people is great for a stadium. However, where a station has to cume 500,000 to get a 1 share, the number pales. What may be happening is that there is enough of a sports fan base to support teams, but it is not a big enough percentage of the total population to support a radio station. I had never thought of it in this manner, and your stats make sense towards such a conclusion.

 

[davideduardo]

WHERE did I say that the mayor has to enforce Federal Law?? Although one would hope any mayor would not take contrary action to Federal law.

I'll ask again (since you are around!):
But NOT 50% dominant Spanish I would presume. And is that just within the city limits of LA?

BTW David, how do the spot rates compare between similarly rated Spanish language stations and English language stations?

You mentioned the mayor not distinguishing between illegal and legal immigrants. That is not his job.

At present, Hispanics in LA are about 68% Spanish dominant, with another 20% being what we would call bilingual. The figure is increasing.

I anwered your rate question. It is about power ratios. Since the #1, #2, #4 and #5 25-54 stations are Spanish, these will get the highest rates; since there are no higeher rated stations, these Spanish stations hellp set the rates. Rates are based on cost per point goals by advertisers. Advertiser establish point goals, and pay in proportion to delivery. In the past, Spanish language stations have underbilled because not all advertisers used Hispanic media. Today, with the market closing in on being half Hispanic, most advertisers now use us.

 

[Herb999]

"The issue is whether there is enough of the non-Hispanic white beer drinking crowd "


"think such an aproache is deespicable because they are not discussing issues, but, rather, talking about the perception that Hispanics are dumb, have a separatist agenda, are dirty, are all criminals, etc."


Can we say double standard, some people need to lay off the hateraide.

 

[doublecashkgb]

1. Soccer will never be mass appeal, never. David does not have mainstream tastes, he is simply shadowing his target audience.

2. Sports doesn't work that well in L.A. for a number of reasons, ethnicity is part of it but not the whole
answer. Most successful sports stations have a PBP rights for their local NFL team.Without an NFL franchise, there is less of a focal point for half the year. Right now the market is so diluted there is room for 1 sports station not 3. Bad product from ESPN & The Sporting News does not help.

3. Illegal immigration is not the issue, it's an illegal invasion. This country reached greatness due to the diversity yet ultimately the melting pot of various ethnic groups. Illegals don't assimilate, worse yet the next generation tends to be where the gang and drug problems kick in. Unfortunately the great work values of the illegals, is not always passed on to the next generation.




4.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

What happened to point # 4???

BTW I like your point "Illegals don't assimilate" .... THAT is why the number of Spanish language radio (and TV) stations continues to grow IMO (that's for David). And Spanish language broadcasters would love to keep it that way. If the trend continues re. our border enforcement eventually Spanish-dominant will be a large majority in LA and most of California. Is that what people like David really want? And is that a good thing for the U.S.A.? ???

 

[davideduardo]

What happened to point # 4???

BTW I like your point "Illegals don't assimilate" .... THAT is why the number of Spanish language radio (and TV) stations continues to grow IMO (that's for David). And Spanish language broadcasters would love to keep it that way. If the trend continues re. our border enforcement eventually Spanish-dominant will be a large majority in LA and most of California. Is that what people like David really want? And is that a good thing for the U.S.A.? ???

Spanish language staitons get very little listening from second generation Hispanics. They are assimilated, and by having grown up here, have taste that is not the same as first generation.

Univision and SBS and Entravision all ave stations that are in English or "Spanglish" for second generation or younger Hispanics, such as KXOL in LA, where the jocks mostly speak English... or Univsion´s The Beat in San Antonio that is nearly 100% in English.

When the Hispanic growth is from immigration, there will be needs for Spanish staitons. Remember, music taste is acquired between ages 12 and 15, so it does not matter whether folks learn English or not... they will generally not abandon the musical taste of thier formative years, ever.

First generation, legal or not, does not assimilate, whether they be the Germans of the 1880's, the Irish of the 1840's, or the Italians of the late 19th century and early 20th. The assimilation comes int he second generation.

 

[davideduardo]

1. Soccer will never be mass appeal, never. David does not have mainstream tastes, he is simply shadowing his target audience.

2. Sports doesn't work that well in L.A. for a number of reasons, ethnicity is part of it but not the whole
answer. Most successful sports stations have a PBP rights for their local NFL team.Without an NFL franchise, there is less of a focal point for half the year. Right now the market is so diluted there is room for 1 sports station not 3. Bad product from ESPN & The Sporting News does not help.

3. Illegal immigration is not the issue, it's an illegal invasion. This country reached greatness due to the diversity yet ultimately the melting pot of various ethnic groups. Illegals don't assimilate, worse yet the next generation tends to be where the gang and drug problems kick in. Unfortunately the great work values of the illegals, is not always passed on to the next generation.

Soccer is THE mainstream sport of the world, and is slowly becoming a contender in the US. I only played soccer from about age 7, so I am not shadowing anyone. I lived 30 years or so outside the Contiental US, so my interests are common with other immigrant groups, very few of which care about baseball, football or basketball.

Many sports and n/t stations are shunning the play by play rights as they are too expensive, and they tend to nuke ratings.

No first generation group assimilates. They adapt, but 99% continue to speak the native language best and they continue to like the kind of music they grew up on, no matter what. Irish, Itialian, Poles, Germans, whoever... assimilation comes with the second generation.

You are generalizing. There may be 20,000 gang bangers who are Hispanic in LA. There are 5,000,000 total Hispanics. Urban society creates these problems, going back to the Irish and Italian gangs of Boston, NY, Philly, etc., 100 years ago.

 

[chuckydoll]

News, Sports -- L.A. versus NYC

Why are KNX and KFWB rated only around #23 - #25 in LA?In NYC, WINS (sister station to KFWB) is the #1 AM station, sometimes #1 in cume and sometimes #1 in morning drive.WCBS (sister to KNX) doesn't do as well.But it's usually the #3 AM station and is often in the Top 5 in morning drive.Even in morning drive, LA's all-news stations don't make the top 10.

1010 WINS is focused heavily on the five boroughs of New York City. That's why it does well in NYC and less so in the suburbs.

WCBS-880 has a broader approach plus CBS News and (at least through this year) the Yankees.

KFWB-980 emphasizes "News, Traffic, Dodgers", which makes it easy to sell to advertisers despite a 1 share. Keep in mind that Los Angeles is more saturated with signals than New York.

And why are all of LA's sports stations well below a 1 share?In NYC, WFAN is usually ranked around #15 or so.And it reportedly earns a lot of revenue.Meanwhile, KSPN and KLAC (with very good signals night and day) are ranked in the 30s.KMPC, the Sporting News station, and the powerful 1090 XEPRS don't even show in the ratings.(Yes, I know XEPRS is mostly about San Diego sports. But still with that signal, you'd think they'd at least make the LA book.)

WFAN-660 is the radio flagship for Imus, the Mets and the football Giants, which helps explain its sizable billings.

KLAC-570 has UCLA, the Lakers and (yes) the Raiders but no local teams in the summer. ESPN-710 has USC but just lost Kings hockey to KTLK-1150 and will lose Angels baseball to AM 830 next year. KMPC-1540 is highly directional, which is why it lost USC to 710.

As you admitted, The Mighty 1090 is a San Diego station (Padres, San Diego State). Besides it's sandwiched between two L.A. signals at 1070 and 1110.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Re: News, Sports -- L.A. versus NYC

KLAC-570 has UCLA, the Lakers and (yes) the Raiders but no local teams in the summer. ESPN-710 has USC but just lost Kings hockey to KTLK-1150 and will lose Angels baseball to AM 830 next year. KMPC-1540 is highly directional, which is why it lost USC to 710.

As you admitted, The Mighty 1090 is a San Diego station (Padres, San Diego State). Besides it's sandwiched between two L.A. signals at 1070 and 1110.

Good analysis of the NYC sports and talk stations. And I've been predicting for a while that the Angels games will move to 830... Only question is can they/would they try to get out of their 2007 season committment with KSPN.. and if so, what, if any, would be their penalty? 1540 The Ticket's signal is terrible especially at night when they are interfered with heavily by a 5kw Hermosillo, Mexico station and also receive quite a bit of interference from another Spanish language station in the Phoenix area in the hours around sunset and sunrise. Do you forsee KMPC maintaining the Sports talk format?

 

[doublecashkgb]

Play by Play rights are expensive, but part of the cost of doing business for successful
Sports Stations. It's all about depth of image in sports radio, the PBP rights also give
you a natural platform to create revenue through features, pre & post, game days,
daily reports, etc. which are tremendous revenue generators.

Sports Radio has the highest power ratio in the business. Take the revenue generated
by a KNBR for instance, and you'll see that ratings are deceptive. I don't get reports
on LA revenue, but as bad as XTRA Sports 570 is, I would still expect they do fairly
well for a station that relies on so much syndicated programming. But I will be the
first to admit LA has never had a great sports station. XTRA-690 in the 90's from
Baja was a great biller and innovative station, yet was 150 miles from the metro of LA.

I don't expect 1st generation immigrants to assimilate, but unless these individuals
study and learn this country's values, & make certain their children speak English,
we will see more of the problems which have created mini-Mexico in a number of
California cities.

I will be the first to salute the values of hard work which have always been a hallmark
of the Mexican immigrant. Many of these people were taken advantage of by their employer,
and unfortunately never learned English, therefore failing to move up the economic ladder.
I know others who escaped that economic straitjacket by learning english and going to
school.


However, quite frankly we often see the other side. The criminal, drug dealer, or rapist, who comes to this country and commits crimes. Without tougher immigration laws, we will be overrun with people who don't
share the same values as we do. The unlicensed, uninsured illegal is everyone's nightmare,
the second & third generation's pressure to join gangs can't be ignored either. All one has to
do is look around, and examine the impact a community has once it has been invaded by Hispanics
of the lower socio economic strata. The telltale signs include tagging, buildings & dwellings in
disrepair, upsurge in crime, & crowding of hospital emergency rooms by uninsured illegals. These
are the facts, I wish it wasn't the case, but I have seen it evolve over the last 30 years.

I also know many Hispanics who are mainstream Americans, they love their heritage, yet have transcended
into the working, middle & upper class. I know many who are more critical of illegal immigration than
I am.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Well done doublecashkgb (did you work for KGB or THE KGB
"Tougher immigration laws"? No, the laws on the books are not being enforced and are ignored, as we all know, by most politicians.

 

[doublecashkgb]

The KGB is the answer, but I sure loved listening to the boss jocks of 136/kgb. 297-0043 is my hitline.

 

[gerald]

No first generation group assimilates. They adapt, but 99% continue to speak the native language best and they continue to like the kind of music they grew up on, no matter what. Irish, Itialian, Poles, Germans, whoever... assimilation comes with the second generation.

David makes sense here. My grandparents imigrated from Poland and never fully assimilated, although they did realize that they had to make their best efforts if they were to get ahead. It was left to their sons and daughters to become fully "American" for want of a better term. And for me third generation, I went through the usual progression of being "embarassed" by their foreign-ness, then missing them after they were gone and wishing I had spoken more to them about their experiences.

 

[gerald]

Let's not forget

that KNX has been dumbed down to about a fourth grade level, so that's certainly not going to help the numbers. The "morning team" is embarassingly bad, so is the "afternoon team." Larry Van Nuys seems to have a cot set up in the hall, he does almost every other shift. And while he may be a really cool guy and fun to be with, he is totally wrong for a serious news station. Starting with his goofy AM Top 40 jock voice and his desire to make everything "fun" and do happy talk with the traffic folks and Melinda Lee, which works fine in the proper setting but NOT at an all-news station.

Further proof? Bob McCormick's show may be titled Money 101 but it's really just talk, about anything he can think of. This morning's non-money-related topic (I kid you not) - what it's like for a guy to grow up with a girl's name (Kelly, Carol, etc.). I so wanted to call and once I got on the air just start dumping on the guy.

My wife had been out of town for several months on business, and on her return she had KNX on while doing her morning bathroom routine. She came out shaking her head after a coupla minutes and said What the hell have they done to KNX?