WPHT 1210 AM, a 1.4 in the latest ratings

[MDefl]

Let's face it, they are limited in terms of changing the format. The AM dial doesn't really offer many viable options for a station that large. Any "change" would still result in talk something. I think they should either go way to the left or back to the right with very well known talkers. This approach is failing. Clearly. The market cannot handle an all sports talk station and KYW will prevent another all news station.

 

[MoldaMania182]

WPHT is at a real disadvantage because it has to survive ONLY on Talk. People in Philadelphia hit 1060 when they just want news.

But I don't think CBS is ready to give up on a 50,000 watt Talk station in a top 10 market. I'd guess they'll try moving some people around or getting rid of the lowest rated hosts for new people. They're not going to change the format.

I wonder if CBS would ever really consider giving KYW the better signal eventually. I guess the Phillies prevent that. for now.

 

[EJ204]

>>>These days, you'll never know. <<<

Clear Channel is an owner that is willing to dump underperforming Talk stations. In Boston, they discontinued Talk on 50,000 watt 1200 WXKS. It's now Comedy. In Atlanta, the Talk format on 640 WGST was replaced by ESPN Deportes. (WGST is 50,000 watts by day, but only 1000 watts at night.) And in San Diego, Clear Channel ended the Talk simulcast on 95.7 KOGO-FM for Rhythmic Oldies, but kept Talk on 600 KOGO.

CBS did get rid of Talk formats a few months ago on a few underperforming AM stations in Detroit, Seattle and Charlotte to run the CBS Sports Network. But those stations were running all syndicated shows all day. They weren't a legacy station like WPHT, which CBS has owned since the dawn of broadcasting.

 

[Jul]

I wonder if CBS would ever really consider giving KYW the better signal eventually. I guess the Phillies prevent that. for now.

I don't think that the Phillies will be on 1210 this season. I think they will be on 94.1 FM only. I think that CBS will blow up 1210 at some-point before the Phillies regular season begins. CBS can't accept the status Que for WPHT. The ratings show it.

 

[MDefl]

I thought the simulcast was going to continue.

 

[rdcuffpa1]

I wonder if CBS would ever really consider giving KYW the better signal eventually. I guess the Phillies prevent that. for now.

Heh - whether or not WPHT is "better" depends on your perspective. Up in the Lehigh Valley KYW is local-grade and stays that way in my daily commute to Reading.

WPHT is clearly inferior in that geography. However, heading towards NYC WPHT is better.

So which would they rather serve...Chester County or Trenton?

Richard in Allentown

 

[Jul]

I thought the simulcast was going to continue. 

Who knows. Personally, I think having the Phillies games on 2 stations doesn't make sense, Eagles yes, Phillies no. Having the Phillies on for half a year hurts the local talk programming on 1210. Shows like The Crime Guy with Walt Hunter gets shortened of skipped because of the paid programming they have to air, especially if it starts late because of the Phillies coverage.

 

[MoldaMania182]

Heh - whether or not WPHT is "better" depends on your perspective. Up in the Lehigh Valley KYW is local-grade and stays that way in my daily commute to Reading.

WPHT is clearly inferior in that geography. However, heading towards NYC WPHT is better.

This isn't really a discussion or perspective at all to be honest. Your personal situation or geo-location doesn't represent the area at large. It may be a little better in that direction (only, essentially), but omni-directional Clear Channel is better than directional, especially when the directional has a 50k co channel neighbor 90 miles or so away. This has been discussed numerous times over the years here. Don't forget the amorphous title of Lehigh Valley isn't really a part of the Philly radio market anyway, that's A-B-E, but those Jersey counties are.

 

[EJ204]

>>>I don't think that the Phillies will be on 1210 this season. I think they will be on 94.1 FM only.<<<

The trend in baseball carriage is going the other way. Teams want the big signal AM station to reach into the farther suburbs, and because older fans have been tuning to that station for decades. And they also want FM because it attracts younger demos and has better sound quality.

In fact, CBS just missed out on getting the Indians because they didn't have an AM station in Cleveland. The Indians went with Clear Channel, staying on the big 50,000 watt Talk station, WTAM and adding FM rock station (and one-time sister station to WMMR) WMMS 100.7. CBS has a new FM Sports station in Cleveland and wanted the Indians for 92.3 The Fan. But with no AM station in the market, they lost the chance to steal the Indians.

In Boston, the Red Sox are on both WEEI-AM and FM. In Detroit, the Tigers are on both WXYT-AM and FM. In NYC, the Mets will be on both WFAN-AM and FM. Now the Indians will be on both WTAM-AM and WMMS-FM.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

A bit of a veer, but there has been talk about the erosion of WABC in NYC in quite the same fashion. Both WABC and WPHT are omni-directional powerhouse AM signals. Both are owned by big companies who will continue to pay big electric bills as long as there are enough gold nugget morsels at the bottom of the pan they shake.

True; the markets are as different as, well, the Eagles and the Giants. But reading that 'live and local' doesn't work on one 50,000 legacy station and that 'syndicated/cutback' is swirling toward the drain on another 50,000 watt marquee signal doesn't bode well at all for AM. (And WABC doesn't carry the Yankees anymore to help 'carry' the station).

I listen to WPHT when the Phillies and Mets are playing, mostly because they come in better than WFAN. And the beer buddy and I were listening to a complete game of the Phillies world series off WPHT when he dropped by. (It seems his wife doesn't like him drinking beer at home, so he dropped by here :- )
But I'm way out of any sensible demo for modern sports marketing. 'Me and my radio' and my birth certificate nowadays gives bad meaning to the word 'anachronism'.

In any case, I'll join the line that says WPHT isn't changing anything soon.

 

[aindik]

A bit of a veer, but there has been talk about the erosion of WABC in NYC in quite the same fashion. Both WABC and WPHT are omni-directional powerhouse AM signals. Both are owned by big companies who will continue to pay big electric bills as long as there are enough gold nugget morsels at the bottom of the pan they shake.

True; the markets are as different as, well, the Eagles and the Giants. But reading that 'live and local' doesn't work on one 50,000 legacy station and that 'syndicated/cutback' is swirling toward the drain on another 50,000 watt marquee signal doesn't bode well at all for AM. (And WABC doesn't carry the Yankees anymore to help 'carry' the station).

I listen to WPHT when the Phillies and Mets are playing, mostly because they come in better than WFAN. And the beer buddy and I were listening to a complete game of the Phillies world series off WPHT when he dropped by. (It seems his wife doesn't like him drinking beer at home, so he dropped by here :- )
But I'm way out of any sensible demo for modern sports marketing. 'Me and my radio' and my birth certificate nowadays gives bad meaning to the word 'anachronism'.

In any case, I'll join the line that says WPHT isn't changing anything soon.

One difference between WABC and WPHT is that WABC is owned by a company that's in the business of syndicating political talk shows, and WPHT is not. Cumulus will likely keep airing political talk shows because it wants them cleared in New York (though perhaps not on 770 AM - see below). CBS has no such incentive.

In Philly, I could see CBS flipping the Sports Network over to 1210 (pre-empted for the Phillies), and selling 610 to Cumulus or Clear Channel, which would use it as an outlet for their syndicated talk shows.

As for New York, as I've said elsewhere, the only entities that seem to care about the extra beyond-the-market coverage that a 50 KW non-directional clear channel signals provide seem to be baseball teams. Everyone else (programmers, advertisers, other sports teams) seem to be perfectly fine with major market FM coverage. That's why I think Disney will eventually buy 770 AM in New York, turn it into an ESPN Radio station (either a simulcast with the local station on FM, or a full network clear) and put one of the two baseball teams on it (simulcast with the FM). I think Cumulus wants to keep its talk shows on the air in New York, but if it can pocket some cash and air them on a lesser signal, they might be OK with that. I was thinking 94.7 FM might be that signal, but now I'm thinking maybe 1050 is. Or maybe 99.5 FM. Or maybe 94.7, with the new country format moving to 99.5.

 

[TimeIsTight]

I think Cumulus wants to keep its talk shows on the air in New York, but if it can pocket some cash and air them on a lesser signal, they might be OK with that.

The problem with trying to do conservative political talk on lesser signals in both NYC and Philly is that in geographical terms the potential audience looks like a donut.

In both NYC and Philly, the urban core of the market is very blue, and the fringe counties are politically red. The lower power AM signals were designed in the era when the bulk of the population lived in the urban core, and they don't do a good job of reaching those suburban red counties.

On the other hand, some suburban stations do, but then you can't really tell advertisers that you're on a Philly or NYC major market station.

Agreed that if the talk format on PHT hemorrhages money, that CBS will still find something else to put on the signal and will keep it in the family long term.

Also, as long as Cumulus is in the national talk syndication business it will keep WABC. If it does buy another FM in NYC it will do another format. In the whole hundreds of stations scheme of things, picking up a relative few bucks and selling off a rare station like WABC while dooming your national talk show offerings to a lesser signal doesn't make sense, especially when your chief rival in national talk syndication just bought WOR to compete with you.

When it comes to the business importance of baseball coverage, it isn't worth buying a major market AM just to do that. It should be remembered that in NYC, CBS loses millions a year on the Yankees radio broadcasts. In a market of 16-million, the average Yankees game cume was about 365,000 during the 2011 season. I don't know what the numbers are in Philly, but wouldn't be surprised if baseball isn't a loss leader for CBS Sports talk here too.

 

[aindik]

I think Cumulus wants to keep its talk shows on the air in New York, but if it can pocket some cash and air them on a lesser signal, they might be OK with that.

The problem with trying to do conservative political talk on lesser signals in both NYC and Philly is that in geographical terms the potential audience looks like a donut.

In both NYC and Philly, the urban core of the market is very blue, and the fringe counties are politically red. The lower power AM signals were designed in the era when the bulk of the population lived in the urban core, and they don't do a good job of reaching those suburban red counties.

That's true. But an FM station could accomplish that. You need a station that reaches the entire market. What you don't need is a station that reaches beyond the market.

Also, as long as Cumulus is in the national talk syndication business it will keep WABC. If it does buy another FM in NYC it will do another format. In the whole hundreds of stations scheme of things, picking up a relative few bucks and selling off a rare station like WABC while dooming your national talk show offerings to a lesser signal doesn't make sense, especially when your chief rival in national talk syndication just bought WOR to compete with you.

See, I think the only reason Clear Channel bought WOR is because it was already maxed out on FM stations in New York City (and it's not about to flip a NYC FM to talk because all 5 of Clear Channel's NYC FM's are killing it in the ratings). They bought WOR because it was the best option they legally had. If they (like Cumulus) could have legally acquired an FM station for the talk shows, I think they would have.

When it comes to the business importance of baseball coverage, it isn't worth buying a major market AM just to do that. It should be remembered that in NYC, CBS loses millions a year on the Yankees radio broadcasts. In a market of 16-million, the average Yankees game cume was about 365,000 during the 2011 season. I don't know what the numbers are in Philly, but wouldn't be surprised if baseball isn't a loss leader for CBS Sports talk here too.

The "leader" part of "loss leader" is the key. They take annual losses on baseball coverage for good reason. I think ESPN wants a piece of the credibility they provide.

 

[TimeIsTight]

But an FM station could accomplish that.

While it appears conservative talk is working ratings wise in Philly, full market FMs in NYC now sell for $75-to-$80-million, and with the aging demos, fading ratings, and spot sales problems that conservative talk is encountering, there are still better format options for bigger profits than putting "old guy" talk on a NYC FM, that could do better attracting younger demos. The two big talk players have squared off with next door low dial position 50-kw AMs and while Cumulus does have the option to buy another FM, it would still cost almost twice as much as WABC would sell for.

The "leader" part of "loss leader" is the key. They take annual losses on baseball coverage for good reason. I think ESPN wants a piece of the credibility they provide.

Agreed, but the question is: How much are they willing to lose for the "prestige?" Spending $40-to-50-million to acquire a declining value AM just to please a team that wants to reach game listeners beyond the primary market where the FM signals don't go, is probably more than it makes sense to spend. It would be much more efficient to line up gametime affiliates outside of the primary market, give them the game feed for free and allow them to sell some local spots. And you probably wouldn't have to give them the games for free.

Thankfully in Philly, WPHT will probably be there as the one stop "extended" range station for Phillies games for the foreseeable future. And the Philadelphia sports fan diaspora will remain grateful for its night game skywave signal.

 

[MDefl]

People keep going back to the demo's but they ignore that the income demo for conservative radio is probably the highest or very close to the highest overall. As a medium, it stays in business for a a reason. IQ is literally doubling PHT and I am not convinced that IQ has reached their max yet given that many still don't know that station exists.

PHT needs better hosts. It is not an ideology thing with me. They could go far left and that would be fine. As long as the hosts are truly entertaining and draw the right demo. The problem for left radio in the past (besides the overall numbers) is that the demo was weak for income. It skewed young. But young with no money is still a problem. I do think there has to be a way for left radio to draw in more affluent listeners. Anyway, the mish mash being offered by PHT apparently satisifies no one. It is not working.

 

[rdcuffpa1]

It may be a little better in that direction (only, essentially), but omni-directional Clear Channel is better than directional, especially when the directional has a 50k co channel neighbor 90 miles or so away. This has been discussed numerous times over the years here. Don't forget the amorphous title of Lehigh Valley isn't really a part of the Philly radio market anyway, that's A-B-E, but those Jersey counties are.

What is that directional co-channel neighbor?

Looking at this from the perspective of 1060 vs. 1210, my assumption is that CBS could move KYW to 1210 in a heartbeat if they felt that was the better signal contour, couldn't they?

My point was that much of the 1210 signal is "wasted" to the north & east, where there is less interest in a Philadelphia news format than there is to the north & west.

But I'm biased because I've enjoyed KYW for almost as long as they've been an all-news station...when all I could hear was nighttime skip up in Western New York, then later when I lived in South Jersey, and thankfully still up in the hinterlands.

Richard in Allentown

 

[EZway2go]

The problem for left radio in the past (besides the overall numbers) is that the demo was weak for income. It skewed young. But young with no money is still a problem.

I've never understood that. I know this question comes up time and time again, but why do the advertisers go after the young at the exclusion of the older—and far wealthier—demographic? Aside from the income factor, there's also the inevitability that it's the older folks who are more likely listening to the radio in the first place while their technologically savvy younger counterparts are into other media.

 

[OldNumber7]

I've never understood that. I know this question comes up time and time again, but why do the advertisers go after the young at the exclusion of the older—and far wealthier—demographic? Aside from the income factor, there's also the inevitability that it's the older folks who are more likely listening to the radio in the first place while their technologically savvy younger counterparts are into other media.

Advertisers believe younger people haven't made up their minds about preferred brands of goods and services. Older people are more set in their ways and less likely to switch to a new a brand. It's true older people have more money, but if they've already decided not to spend it with you, your ads get no bang for the buck. This is true, of course, across all media -- radio, TV, print, web.

 

[TimeIsTight]

It's actually more than just what advertisers "believe," it's what they "know" from years and years of collecting massive amounts of data. And what's more important than "income" is "spending."

At the big ticket end, when folks buy a new car marketers "know" who that buyer is, and what their address is, and once they know that, they know how old that buyer is. That kind of information is widely available.

When it comes to items in the medium purchase range, like cruise tickets, or furniture items, enough people use their credit cards that the data is very good, and your credit card has your name on it, and they know how old you are.

Even paying cash at the supermarket, if you use one of those chain store "shopper cards" to get discounts, they know how old you are and exactly every item you have purchased while using the card.

So, the point is, they know what people in every demo buy, and how much they buy. They "know" older people who have long established brand loyalties aren't as easily switched in buying decisions by advertising, and they know that younger people who are establishing families, furnishing houses, etc. are going to buy more of certain product and services categories, are more likely to be influenced by advertising, and are themselves establishing brand preferences that they will keep for a lifetime. That's why advertisers are now more interested in them and their demos.

 

[EJ204]

>>>WWIQ is literally doubling PHT and I am not convinced that IQ has reached their max yet given that many still don't know that station exists. <<<

WWIQ had one good book in the middle of the Presidential Election. That was it. They tumbled the next book and currently are at #20. WPHT is #22. They are only .4 apart.

WWIQ has been on the air for the last five months They shot up to #10 for that one Presidential Election book. So apparently the audience found them when it was election time. Now they've left for other things.

In Philadelphia history, Conservative Talk Radio has never really done as well as it has in other markets. WWDB 96.5 was Philadelphia's most successful Talk station, with hosts who were all over the place and several hosts who never talked about politics. WWDB reached a high of #6 in an era when not all cars had FM radios. They were live and local all day and night. Today, nobody can match them.