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WZLX, when are they going to stop running the sophmoric HD ads for no one?

Especially considering the Boston HD market is already saturated at 13 listeners, 12 of whom probably post here?
Also when is WBZ going to stop jamming the east coast with it's IBOC hash since the HD carrier only goes about 20-30 miles on a good day with a good receiver during the late afternoon (with drop outs galore and nothing at night at all) while the iBlock hash goes 200 miles during the day and one thousand miles easily at night. Great system this HD. Good thing the Russians didn't have it during the cold war.
 
I am done with SATRAD, Mel has killed it. It might be 15 listeners soon.
I agree these are dumb ads, heard them on other stations also.
It would be much better to hear about each individual stations HD2 programming.
Does anyone know if stations run these ads for free ?
 
dumber than a box of hair said:
freqlost said:
Does anyone know if stations run these ads for free ?

The ads are run in commercial time that's on the market but as yet unsold.

Yeah. So it's a sure bet, these spots are not going away, anytime soon. Yes, they ARE irritating, aren't they? Like pulling teeth.
 
KB1OKL said:
Also when is WBZ going to stop jamming the east coast with it's IBOC hash

Answer? Never. Get used to it Peter.

You mention the 12 or 13 HD listeners.....that's more than care about IBOC has, besides a few DX-ers living in their moms basement.

HD radio isn't going away anytime soon. The broadcasters like the functionality.

What would be good is if these stations used those HD radio spots to actually TELL PEOPLE what formats they might receive if they bought an HD receiver!

I know many people who would spend $100-$200 one time on an HD radio if they knew they could get smooth jazz.

When cars start coming equipped with HD stock, people will start to find some formats they like...like coffeehouse, 70's, etc.

The IBOC haters are all spouting issues that the average listener doesn't care about. (like DX)
 
having the hd content as online subchannels seems to generate a good response....the alternative programming idea works it's just the hardware that p[people seem hesitant to buy into.
 
Don Juan said:
KB1OKL said:
Also when is WBZ going to stop jamming the east coast with it's IBOC hash

Answer? Never. Get used to it Peter.

You mention the 12 or 13 HD listeners.....that's more than care about IBOC has, besides a few DX-ers living in their moms basement.

First of all Jack, I hardly understood that sentence anyway but if I deciphered it correctly then if no one cares about it (which is precisely my point anyway) why then isn't it shut off? It's doing no one any good at all, sounds like krap and is virtually unreceivable unless you live within line of site of the towers. It is driving the sound floor up on both FM and AM and believe me all consumers even though they don't know why that is, care about it and migrate toward other music forms. So IBOC spewers instead of helping radio, you're helping kill it.

HD radio isn't going away anytime soon. The broadcasters like the functionality.

What functionality is that? The ability to jam 50 KHz of spectrum and take out 4 other stations with it as WTAG 580 does here even though i can't receive it in glorious iBlock and I live less than 10 miles away from it's transmitters? And incidentally it comes in like gangbusters here in analog

What would be good is if these stations used those HD radio spots to actually TELL PEOPLE what formats they might receive if they bought an HD receiver!

in glorious 28 Kbps lo fidelity?

I know many people who would spend $100-$200 one time on an HD radio if they knew they could get smooth jazz.

Smooth jazz? yeah that's a big seller.

When cars start coming equipped with HD stock, people will start to find some formats they like...like coffeehouse, 70's, etc.

HD overstock you mean? NO ONE is ordering them in cars and they're certainly not going to offer them stock except in a few certain high priced cars and those will be returned as defective which is what has been happening recently to the few poor unfortunates that got stuck with them.

The IBOC haters are all spouting issues that the average listener doesn't care about. (like DX)

That's right because the average listener doesn't know it exists and couldn't care less, great way to sustain a business, keep trying to cram a POS unworking format down people's throats. Just how long are stations going to waste money transmitting a signal no one listens to?
 
KB1OKL said:
First of all Jack, I hardly understood that sentence anyway

You mention the 12 or 13 HD listeners.....whatever listeners HD has...it's more than those whining about not being able to DX.

OK Harry, I mistyped.

There are more people who care to listen to the HD2 Channels....than those who want to DX.

HD-2 can deliver more revenue to a station than the benefit of DX listeners in the nether regions.

KB1OKL said:
It is driving the sound floor up on both FM and AM....

The ability to jam 50 KHz of spectrum and take out 4 other stations with it ...

in glorious 28 Kbps lo fidelity?...

None of the research says that anyone cares about these issues. Just geeky DX-ers in their moms basement.

KB1OKL said:
Smooth jazz? yeah that's a big seller..

Outside of the rock genres...it's probably the next viable format thats not on currently on the dial. Also, very passionate and slightly more affluent listeners who would have no problem purchasing a radio, if it meant hearing their favorite format.

KB1OKL said:
NO ONE is ordering them in cars and they're certainly not going to offer

I recall the same issue confronting FM. No one was going to order them, cuz their wasn't any good programming. The only cars that came with them were high-end "loaded" cars.

Like most "extras" people don't "order" cars with these items...they buy them off the lot and the "extras" are included. The same way FM became standard in cars. When it became a 'stock' item, people started discovering the programming.

KB1OKL said:
The IBOC haters are all spouting issues that the average listener doesn't care about. (like DX)

Quote
That's right because the average listener doesn't know it exists and couldn't care less

What they don't care about is being able to recieve a DX signal carrying Coast to Coast AM

KB1OKL said:
Just how long are stations going to waste money transmitting a signal no one listens to?

How long did FM do it? For a long time they simply rebroadcast the AM signals in glorious mono!

The digital world is here...and it's not going away. Progress cannot be stopped.

However, you are free to use DOS if you like.
 
>>None of the research says that anyone cares about these issues. Just geeky DX-ers in their moms basement.<<

Clearly you know very little about these folks because the basement is usually a horrible place to dx! ::)

As for the rest of your missive, it totally overstates the effectiveness of HD Radio. And, you seem to be in some little clique where people would spend $200 on one of these POS radios if they could get smooth jazz. I'd like to submit that the dx interest group is almost certainly much larger than that Algonquin Roundtable of yours.

In general, there are 3 main issues with HD and all three are potentially fatal:

1) The product rollout has been slow, involves bulky and expensive units and provides big boxy (and battery sucking) products to a marketplace where portability is king. People adore iPods and you give them something that looks like a Polaroid camera from 1975! Furthermore, aside from some of the more expensive component-type HD Radios, most of these units do not perform well when it comes to reception of HD stations, which brings me to....

2) The technology annoys more than just dxers. The digital sidebands are absolutely murder on AM; particularly at night. As much as the coneheads at Ibiquity and those who are in the tank for them want the laws of physics to be repealed, they won't be. So you have issues with propagation on AM and the signal interfering with other stations IN THEIR HOME MARKETS. Furthermore, AM HD f-s up reception for hundreds of miles in many cases, but the technology sucks so hard that you can only depend on a usable range of one-tenth that. Even then, it bounces in and out of lock as you travel. Not to mention that the sidebands take up half of the bandwidth that was formerly used for analog audio, rendering that flat to the 99.97% of listeners that tune in via analog radios. Face it, AM HD is faulty and like a horse with 2 broken legs, it needs to be turned into dog food.

FM's issue is similar, but not as bad. To get the subchannels, you need a rock-solid signal - the range is less than half of the analog. Go over a hill in Westford and you lose lock. Turn a corner in Andover and you lose that HD-2 signal you were listening to in the car. And, it may not be listenable again until you get back to that spot. To power them up would mean interference with nearby stations, so you have that problem to address. In other words, they're trying to shoehorn too much into too small of a space. Honestly, a new slice of spectrum that would be digital only is the better solution. And it would sell much better.

3) Apathy. No one cares! You poke fun at dxers? Everyone else pokes fun at the dozen of you who are HD proponents. An answer to a question that no one asked. Insipid marketing, lousy products, none of which is in tune with where technology is headed have conspired to make HD Radio obsolete before it even gets off the ground. Nobody is buying into it! For every one person you show me who has an HD radio, I'll show you 300 others who don't have one and who don't plan to buy one. And, a solid percentage of your HD radio owning group are unhappy with their purchase and won't buy another.

By the way, the marketing has been awful! I could hire the Three Stooges to do a more effective campaign armed with a hammer and two cream pies! The "stations between the stations" was the only line that ever even seems to address the concept of added value and they don't feature that anymore. Tagging? So what. That would have impressed people in 1991, but not now. It's not a fatal flaw and is thus not in the numbered paragraphs above. But it is yet another failure of the HD Radio group. And it belies their ignorance and the poor planning that has become a hallmark of HD Radio.

So, yes, digital may be the future. But perhaps not with HD Radio - and certainly not on AM. Give it up.
 
BRNout said:
As for the rest of your missive, it totally overstates the effectiveness of HD Radio. And, you seem to be in some little clique where people would spend $200 on one of these POS radios if they could get smooth jazz.

Nope, personally I hate so-called Smooth Jazz. I just believe there is a little money left to be made with this format.

Since you are a former radio person, you should understand that people do not program the formats they like, they program for where there is money to be made.


BRNout said:
I'd like to submit that the dx interest group is almost certainly much larger than that Algonquin Roundtable of yours.

Radio makes no money from DX-ers. They are irrelevant.


BRNout said:
In general, there are 3 main issues with HD and all three are potentially fatal:

1) The product rollout has been slow, involves bulky and expensive units and provides big boxy

I recall the same issue for FM. big bulky expensive units with a need for a large antenna to pick up the signals.


BRNout said:
2) The technology annoys more than just dxers. The digital sidebands are absolutely murder on AM; particularly at night.

Again, this is a false assumption on your part. I have not seen one study (and I've seen a few) where listeners have complained about digital sidebands.

If you have seen such a study, please quote it.


BRNout said:
3) Apathy. No one cares!

No one cares about radio in general. There is apathy about radio everywhere...from SW to Ham, to AM to FM to Satellite. TO expect ultra enthusiasm from a new technology is not a fair barometer

You are right there is apathy, people don't think about HD radio, they don't think about radio in general.

However, when exposed to it, people generally react positively to HD radio.

Broadcasters like it's extra functionality. It's not going anywhere...and the technology will only improve as time goes on.

BRNout said:
>>None of the research says that anyone cares about these issues. Just geeky DX-ers in their moms basement.<<

Clearly you know very little about these folks because the basement is usually a horrible place to dx! ::)

Another thing to whine about. That and the fact that their mom won't let them hang extra wire and antennas on the house ;-)


BRNout said:
So, yes, digital may be the future. But perhaps not with HD Radio - and certainly not on AM. Give it up.

Get used to it. It's not going anywhere.
 
KB1OKL said:
Especially considering the Boston HD market is already saturated at 13 listeners, 12 of whom probably post here?
Also when is WBZ going to stop jamming the east coast with it's IBOC hash since the HD carrier only goes about 20-30 miles on a good day with a good receiver during the late afternoon (with drop outs galore and nothing at night at all) ........


Well, make that 14 listeners!
I have two HD radios and love them. Correct about the signal drop, but very rare in my case, I live within the range though (29 miles north), so it's not problem for me. And I haven't noticed the night thing that you mention. I've one for the car and one for the house. With house unit, key is a good antenna. With the car unit, it's the 3-5 delay before the HD signal locks in, bothered me at first, but man the sound is 'sweet!'
I'm loving the commercial free choices as well, I especially like our HD2 channel 'The Cove.'

Oh yeah, $69.99 for the home unit, which also plays and charges my iPhone.
For the car, $150.00, it also works with my iPhone, has Bluetooth for hands free, 18 presets, HD channel search, cd player and more.
 
BRNout said:
>>None of the research says that anyone cares about these issues. Just geeky DX-ers in their moms basement.<<

Clearly you know very little about these folks because the basement is usually a horrible place to dx! ::)

As for the rest of your missive, it totally overstates the effectiveness of HD Radio. And, you seem to be in some little clique where people would spend $200 on one of these POS radios if they could get smooth jazz. I'd like to submit that the dx interest group is almost certainly much larger than that Algonquin Roundtable of yours.

In general, there are 3 main issues with HD and all three are potentially fatal:

1) The product rollout has been slow, involves bulky and expensive units and provides big boxy (and battery sucking) products to a marketplace where portability is king. People adore iPods and you give them something that looks like a Polaroid camera from 1975! Furthermore, aside from some of the more expensive component-type HD Radios, most of these units do not perform well when it comes to reception of HD stations, which brings me to....

2) The technology annoys more than just dxers. The digital sidebands are absolutely murder on AM; particularly at night. As much as the coneheads at Ibiquity and those who are in the tank for them want the laws of physics to be repealed, they won't be. So you have issues with propagation on AM and the signal interfering with other stations IN THEIR HOME MARKETS. Furthermore, AM HD f-s up reception for hundreds of miles in many cases, but the technology sucks so hard that you can only depend on a usable range of one-tenth that. Even then, it bounces in and out of lock as you travel. Not to mention that the sidebands take up half of the bandwidth that was formerly used for analog audio, rendering that flat to the 99.97% of listeners that tune in via analog radios. Face it, AM HD is faulty and like a horse with 2 broken legs, it needs to be turned into dog food.

FM's issue is similar, but not as bad. To get the subchannels, you need a rock-solid signal - the range is less than half of the analog. Go over a hill in Westford and you lose lock. Turn a corner in Andover and you lose that HD-2 signal you were listening to in the car. And, it may not be listenable again until you get back to that spot. To power them up would mean interference with nearby stations, so you have that problem to address. In other words, they're trying to shoehorn too much into too small of a space. Honestly, a new slice of spectrum that would be digital only is the better solution. And it would sell much better.

3) Apathy. No one cares! You poke fun at dxers? Everyone else pokes fun at the dozen of you who are HD proponents. An answer to a question that no one asked. Insipid marketing, lousy products, none of which is in tune with where technology is headed have conspired to make HD Radio obsolete before it even gets off the ground. Nobody is buying into it! For every one person you show me who has an HD radio, I'll show you 300 others who don't have one and who don't plan to buy one. And, a solid percentage of your HD radio owning group are unhappy with their purchase and won't buy another.

By the way, the marketing has been awful! I could hire the Three Stooges to do a more effective campaign armed with a hammer and two cream pies! The "stations between the stations" was the only line that ever even seems to address the concept of added value and they don't feature that anymore. Tagging? So what. That would have impressed people in 1991, but not now. It's not a fatal flaw and is thus not in the numbered paragraphs above. But it is yet another failure of the HD Radio group. And it belies their ignorance and the poor planning that has become a hallmark of HD Radio.

So, yes, digital may be the future. But perhaps not with HD Radio - and certainly not on AM. Give it up.

All great points.

Technically, you know when one of the best audio makers in the world - Bose Corporation - absolutely refuses to touch HD Radio it says something about this technology. Bose's engineers won't have anything do with HD Radio because they determined to be crap which it is. I'd rather take my audio advice from Bose engineers than from some misinformed poster on this board.

From the radio industry's standpoint, they don't even have a working business model for the HD product which says a lot about where all this going. Nowhere. Simulcasting analog stations over HD subchannels is not going to make people go out and spend extra for new hardware. Analog FM already serves its purpose just fine. They can market 'mystery radio stations' all they want, but in reality the vast majority of the listening public won't be persuaded to switch unless the government steps in and makes it mandatory.
 
DJbobo said:
Technically, you know when one of the best audio makers in the world - Bose Corporation - absolutely refuses to touch HD Radio it says something about this technology. Bose's engineers won't have anything do with HD Radio because they determined to be crap which it is. I'd rather take my audio advice from Bose engineers than from some misinformed poster on this board.

Bose is an expert in speakers and speaker technology. I would not call them radio experts. Their wave radio has one of the crappiest AM sections for any radio I've seen in that range.

They are also a very slow methodical company...and they don't move fast on anything. BTW...They are not doing too well these days.

Again, back to facts, if you have a quote from a Bose engineer that you can cite....please do.

And I guess JJ Wrights (not so anonymous) comments just means he's misinformed. I'm sorry JJ you have been enjoying your TWO HD radio's JJ...you must be misinformed...you couldn't be enjoying them that much! ;-)
 
Don Juan said:
KB1OKL said:
First of all Jack, I hardly understood that sentence anyway

You mention the 12 or 13 HD listeners.....whatever listeners HD has...it's more than those whining about not being able to DX.

OK Harry, I mistyped.

There are more people who care to listen to the HD2 Channels....than those who want to DX.

HD-2 can deliver more revenue to a station than the benefit of DX listeners in the nether regions.

Why are you talking about DXers? Incidentally how do they deliver revenue when they don't advertise and even if they do how much revenue could 10 listeners deliver?

KB1OKL said:
It is driving the sound floor up on both FM and AM....

The ability to jam 50 KHz of spectrum and take out 4 other stations with it ...

in glorious 28 Kbps lo fidelity?...

None of the research says that anyone cares about these issues. Just geeky DX-ers in their moms basement.

You missed my point John, I said that the noise floor is being driven up UNBEKNOWNST to to the radio listening audience and driving them away to other sources, why do you keep mentioning DXers?

KB1OKL said:
Smooth jazz? yeah that's a big seller..

Outside of the rock genres...it's probably the next viable format thats not on currently on the dial. Also, very passionate and slightly more affluent listeners who would have no problem purchasing a radio, if it meant hearing their favorite format.

I've heard smooth jazz is so big in elevators that people are taking extra rides on them and requesting HD Musak machines. Joke aside there's probably a good reason it's not currently on the dial.

KB1OKL said:
NO ONE is ordering them in cars and they're certainly not going to offer

I recall the same issue confronting FM. No one was going to order them, cuz their wasn't any good programming. The only cars that came with them were high-end "loaded" cars.

You cannot compare FM with iBlock, completely different scenarios.

Like most "extras" people don't "order" cars with these items...they buy them off the lot and the "extras" are included. The same way FM became standard in cars. When it became a 'stock' item, people started discovering the programming.

I recently bought a new car there was not one car on the lot with it, in fact the salesmen never even heard of it. They are impossible to find even in Fords unless they're on the way to their local Salvation army to donate their inoperative (works as designed) home HD radio

KB1OKL said:
The IBOC haters are all spouting issues that the average listener doesn't care about. (like DX)

Quote
That's right because the average listener doesn't know it exists and couldn't care less

What they don't care about is being able to recieve a DX signal carrying Coast to Coast AM

What's this thing you have with DXer's, failed at that too?

KB1OKL said:
Just how long are stations going to waste money transmitting a signal no one listens to?

How long did FM do it? For a long time they simply rebroadcast the AM signals in glorious mono!

I remember when FM came to the fore, it had much more to do with the content than the technology but the technology worked and worked well, but it WAS driven by the content, can you say that about iBlock?

The digital world is here...and it's not going away. Progress cannot be stopped.

In the case of radio IBOC is not progress

However, you are free to use DOS if you like.

Yes, computers need to be digital, sound doesn't
 
Don Juan said:
DJbobo said:
Technically, you know when one of the best audio makers in the world - Bose Corporation - absolutely refuses to touch HD Radio it says something about this technology. Bose's engineers won't have anything do with HD Radio because they determined to be crap which it is. I'd rather take my audio advice from Bose engineers than from some misinformed poster on this board.

Bose is an expert in speakers and speaker technology. I would not call them radio experts. Their wave radio has one of the crappiest AM sections for any radio I've seen in that range.

Bose is also obviously an expert on trends and lead balloons he was smart enough to stay away from iBlock. Their AM section is no better nor no worse than in most other radios out there, but they blow away iBlock AM sections, have you ever tried an AM section in an IBOC radio? They're pathetic. No one makes good AM sections anymore except for a few radios from Japan that are C-Quam and Meduci which is also C-Quam.

They are also a very slow methodical company...and they don't move fast on anything. BTW...They are not doing too well these days.

I think it's safe to say they're doing a lot better than all HD manufacturers together are doing with HD radio which they can't give away. You can't even find an iBlock radio in a store and yes I realize Bose is the same way but they did it that way by design, iBlock radios got neglected out of stores, they blew the dust off the returns and shipped them to overstock.com where they now languish. Incidentally I have a Bose wave radio and have been completely satisfied with it now for 10 years, I even brought it to S. America to use as my all around stereo while I lived there.

Again, back to facts, if you have a quote from a Bose engineer that you can cite....please do.

And I guess JJ Wrights (not so anonymous) comments just means he's misinformed. I'm sorry JJ you have been enjoying your TWO HD radio's JJ...you must be misinformed...you couldn't be enjoying them that much! ;-)

He must be one of the 13 I mentioned, remember 12 of them posted here?
 
JJ Wright said:
KB1OKL said:
Especially considering the Boston HD market is already saturated at 13 listeners, 12 of whom probably post here?
Also when is WBZ going to stop jamming the east coast with it's IBOC hash since the HD carrier only goes about 20-30 miles on a good day with a good receiver during the late afternoon (with drop outs galore and nothing at night at all) ........


Well, make that 14 listeners!
I have two HD radios and love them. Correct about the signal drop, but very rare in my case, I live within the range though (29 miles north), so it's not problem for me. And I haven't noticed the night thing that you mention. I've one for the car and one for the house. With house unit, key is a good antenna. With the car unit, it's the 3-5 delay before the HD signal locks in, bothered me at first, but man the sound is 'sweet!'
I'm loving the commercial free choices as well, I especially like our HD2 channel 'The Cove.'

"our HD2 channel"? Which station do you work for anyway?
 
You're proving the point. Here we have a couple of hobbyists, hams and DX-ers trashing IBOC...and the example brought up is that WTAG splatters some distant adjacent station.

Listeners do not care about this. Only DX-ers and hobbyists.

Bose is also obviously an expert on trends


....ohhh really? They have never been known to be an expert on "trends".

They are experts in speakers and room acoustics...not radio.

And, again, they are not doing so well right now. So much for seeing "trends".
 
Don Juan said:
DJbobo said:
Technically, you know when one of the best audio makers in the world - Bose Corporation - absolutely refuses to touch HD Radio it says something about this technology. Bose's engineers won't have anything do with HD Radio because they determined to be crap which it is. I'd rather take my audio advice from Bose engineers than from some misinformed poster on this board.

Bose is an expert in speakers and speaker technology. I would not call them radio experts. Their wave radio has one of the crappiest AM sections for any radio I've seen in that range.

They are also a very slow methodical company...and they don't move fast on anything. BTW...They are not doing too well these days.

Again, back to facts, if you have a quote from a Bose engineer that you can cite....please do.

And I guess JJ Wrights (not so anonymous) comments just means he's misinformed. I'm sorry JJ you have been enjoying your TWO HD radio's JJ...you must be misinformed...you couldn't be enjoying them that much! ;-)

Good for you being in the know and...misinformed at the same time.
 
Don Juan said:
You're proving the point. Here we have a couple of hobbyists, hams and DX-ers trashing IBOC...and the example brought up is that WTAG splatters some distant adjacent station.

Listeners do not care about this. Only DX-ers and hobbyists.


You are still missing the obvious point I am trying to make which is: all this IBOC hiss and whoosh is raising the noise floor on both FM and AM which makes listeners migrate even more quickly to other radio methods such as satellite and online radio. HD will kill the very thing it's trying to save or to put it more succinctly: The cure is worse than the disease. There is nothing wrong with radio as it is, just widen the AM carrier again so it doesn't sound like there are pillows on top of the speakers and FM sounds great just the way it is and obviously a majority of people agree with me, you can see that by just how slow this so called HD rollout has been, it's has been about as fast as molasses going down a slight incline in the middle of winter in Siberia.

Bose is also obviously an expert on trends


....ohhh really? They have never been known to be an expert on "trends".

They are experts in speakers and room acoustics...not radio.

And, again, they are not doing so well right now. So much for seeing "trends".

They're still doing better than HD audio manufacturers are in that part of their business. Obviously I don't believe any of them were stupid enough to stop making analog radios though but some of them took a big hit making the hissy feet warmers I would wager.
 
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