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XETV San Diego and KSBY San Luis Obispo

M

mteran5

Guest
I was wondering how some AM even FM stations that use the same frequiency run into each other within 200 miles, I was wondering if XETV San Diego and KSBY San Luis Obispo, which use the channel 6 frequiency run into each other whithin a 150 miles.

For example if you are in LA and put the TV on 6 and get a snowy picture which 6 would come in clearer XETV or KSBY.
 
Good question.

Actually, neither XETV nor KSBY would come in on a TV in Los Angeles, because of KSFV-LP, a Spanish-religious station licensed to the San Fernando Valley, which is on channel 6.

Hope this helps.
 
San Luis is much farther away, and I doubt the signal could ever reach LA. I grew up in the 50s and 60s in Tujunga, in the foothills above the San Fernando Valley - near Glendale. Before cable came into town, we got the San Diego/Tijuana stations clearly - 6, 8, 10 and 12 with our 20 foot rooftop antenna. Depending on atmospheric conditions, we would frequently watch network shows on the San Diego affiliates because the picture would be clearer than the LA stations - 2, 4, and 7. XETV was the ABC affiliate in those days.
 
Thanks for the answer but I also forgot to add is XHSFB 6, in San Felipe BC, Mexico I would think XETV San Diego/Tijuana would interfere with that station because Tijuana is closer to San Felipe.
 
Tijuana and the Central Coast -- no problemo

mteran5 said:
I was wondering if XETV San Diego and KSBY San Luis Obispo, which use the channel 6 frequiency run into each other whithin a 150 miles.

Fox 6 is actually licensed to Tijuana, Mexico, far enough away for its signal to not interfere with KSBY.

Tijuana and the Central Coast share 2 other VHF channels. XHTJB-3 is far enough away from KEYT-3 out in Santa Barbara. XEWT-12 is well clear of KCOY-12 up in Santa Maria.
 
Also, don't same frequency stations usually broadcaset differently (and not exactly on the same frequency), like XETV transmitting horizontally and at 5.9, with a differet 6 going Vertical and at 6.1?
 
Garrett said:
Also, don't same frequency stations usually broadcaset differently (and not exactly on the same frequency), like XETV transmitting horizontally and at 5.9, with a differet 6 going Vertical and at 6.1?


No. They offset the transmitting frequency either higher or lower than the "center-slot" for the channel.
 
Garrett said:
Also, don't same frequency stations usually broadcaset differently (and not exactly on the same frequency), like XETV transmitting horizontally and at 5.9, with a differet 6 going Vertical and at 6.1?

All TV stations in the U.S. and Canada are horizontally polarized. (I'm pretty sure this is the case in Mexico too, but not 100% certain) A small number of stations also have a vertically-polarized component.

Many analog stations are required to operate 10KHz "off frequency". XETV is not - they operate exactly on channel 6 (83.25MHz video, 87.75MHz audio) but KSBY is offset +10KHz. (83.26 video, 87.76 audio) Basically, when you receive two analog TV stations on the same frequency, the interference appears as horizontal bars in the picture. The greater the difference between the frequencies of the two interfering stations, the smaller the horizontal bars - until the difference frequency approaches that of horizontal sync.

According to my calculations KSBY and XETV's towers are 287 miles apart. The FCC only requires 220 miles between VHF stations on the same channel. XHSFB is only 163 miles from XETV, but on the other hand I have infomation that it's only running 350 watts of power.
 
Antenna Polarization--was (Re: XETV San Diego and KSBY San Luis Obispo)

w9wi said:
Garrett said:
Also, don't same frequency stations usually broadcaset differently (and not exactly on the same frequency), like XETV transmitting horizontally and at 5.9, with a differet 6 going Vertical and at 6.1?

All TV stations in the U.S. and Canada are horizontally polarized. (I'm pretty sure this is the case in Mexico too, but not 100% certain) A small number of stations also have a vertically-polarized component.

Sorry W9... but your reference to horizontal polarization is not accurate.

Many US stations transmit with circularly polarized emissions, to help reduce "ghosting" and problems that occur when the viewed station's signal hits the antenna from multiple paths (multi-path).

Check the FCC database at http://fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html for television or
http://fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/fmq.html for FM stations to see what polarization a station uses.

Horizontal polarization was the original polarization used for VHF, which includes North American TV channels 2-13 and the FM band, which falls between TV channels 6-7.

As more technical and "real world" experience developed over the last 60 years, new concepts were sought to improve reception for the end-user and to extend the coverage for broadcasters, which improved the revenue possibilities of stations, particularly where reception was a problem.

Some history on CP as it relates to FM is found here:
http://www.acmi.net.au/AIC/RADIO_HIST_WHITAKER.html

"Circular polarization of the transmitted signal was another major step for FM radio. One of the early proponents was KPEN-FM, Atherton (on the San Francisco Peninsula), which later would become KIOI (better known as K-101), San Francisco. KPEN received a special temporary authorization from the FCC in the later part of 1963 to start testing the effects of adding a vertical component to the existing horizontal signal.

A second Western Electric 10kW transmitter was purchased and modified to provide the needed power. Separate vertical dipoles were manufactured and installed on the station's tower. With this setup, engineers were able to vary the phase relationship and amplitude so that the station could switch from a horizontally polarized signal to a circular pattern. Monitoring points were established in rugged areas of San Francisco to observe the results. It was found that as the vertical component of the transmitted signal was increased, reception of stereo signals improved significantly.

At the same time, Lew Wetzel of WFIL-FM was proving to the commission that the vertical component of a circularly polarized transmission did not extend the 1mV contour. With these two reports, the FCC decided that it would indeed be in the public interest for FM stations to transmit with circular polarization."

Details on antenna polarization can be found in Chapter 8 of the "Television Engineering Handbook" by K. Blair Benson, McGraw Hill Publishing.

Here's a pretty good description of what happens at the receiver end, as written by Brian Beezley in a construction guide for an FM antenna using rabbit ears.
http://users.tns.net/~bb/rabbit.htm

The FM band's between Channels 6 and 7, so you might have some fun with this concept for TV.

"When a circularly polarized signal reflects from a surface, the circularity reverses. Thus right-circular signals produce left-circular reflections. If you orient a circularly polarized antenna so that reflections arrive at opposite-circularity nulls, you can reduce multipath distortion on FM signals. Unlike the simple pattern nulls characteristic of linearly polarized antennas, opposite-circularity nulls of circularly polarized antennas occur within the desired-circularity main lobes. Thus you can maximize the desired signal while rejecting multipath reflections from the same general direction. With the bidirectional nulls of rabbit ears, you can simultaneously reject reflections from the front and rear.

Rabbit ears reduce opposite-circularity reflections by at least 10 dB over nearly 40 degrees in azimuth. This wide range allows the antenna to reject diffuse forward diffraction components that may accompany a signal scattered over a range of hills or mountains. For a single specular reflection, orient the antenna to place a null at the reflection angle. The broad main lobe permits good direct-path pickup even when nulling a wide-angle reflection."

Ted.
 
Re: Antenna Polarization--was (Re: XETV San Diego and KSBY San Luis Obispo)

TedL said:
w9wi said:
All TV stations in the U.S. and Canada are horizontally polarized. (I'm pretty sure this is the case in Mexico too, but not 100% certain) A small number of stations also have a vertically-polarized component.

Sorry W9... but your reference to horizontal polarization is not accurate.

Sure it is. *All* U.S. TV stations transmit a horizontally-polarized signal; the small number that are circularly-polarized also have a vertical component. (I count only four circularly-polarized TV stations in Tennessee; spot checks of other states showed similar ratios)

CP certainly does work nicely - my current employer and our main competition uses it, and there's a pretty dramatic improvement to the signal in town.

The situation is pretty much reversed on FM - the vast majority of FM stations are indeed circular. I count 226 FM stations in Tennessee. 208 are circularly polarized. Seven of those that aren't are required to be vertical-only to avoid interference to channel 6 TV stations in Knoxville and Paducah. Eleven have apparently chosen to be horizontal-only. (one of these has a construction permit to increase power and add vertical) Only *two* of the state's commercial stations are not circularly polarized.

I've seen similar figures in other states.
 
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