Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[benale]

It is illegal to text and drive, and incredibly stupid..and it is amazing how many younger drivers do it. Take your eyes off the road for more than a second and it's an accident waiting to happen...and now back to the original subject that has an amazing number of posts.

 

[RIN3GUY]

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree...My thing is you can play those 500 staple songs along with 300 more to give the station some flavor..The problem with alot of stations is there is no flavor..Its vanilla or nothing and that's the issue...It has to be done within reason and cannot be based on any personal taste within the station...Thre are so many factors that go into a stations failure or success and music is only part of the puzzle..Let's face it its all about the dollars..Whether its 200 songs or tweny thousand..it has to be properly promoted..your sales staff has to sell it..and you have to have good people to execute it...I don't care to play what I like..I can do that at home..I want to please listeners and clients. I will say this one more time the #1 compliant I hear is from listeners is it seems like I hear the same songs on the radio everyday... and well if you play_____ by Fleetwood Mac why don't you play____________ by Fleetwood Mac...We owe the people an intelligent answer to that question and giving them a bunch of research shows____ is not a good enough answer in my opinion if we answer them at all.

Adding 300 tracks to a base of 500 means that just under 38% of your songs don't test as well as the others (or else you'd have been playing them all along).

To do that to a station that's doing well in ratings and revenue is like walking into the control room of a nuclear power plant and pushing a third of the buttons just to find out what they do.

Michael,
Stations with a "very conservative" playlist end up with much faster burnout. Such is the case with KJMK in Joplin. In spite of their high ratings, here's what's going on there now, according to their own Facebook comments:

(anonymous listener) "I love that you have added "Every Time I Think Of You" & "Ticket To Ride"! We listeners love newly added music! I especially love both these groups! Thanks!!"

Classic Hits 93.9 "You are welcome. We've always had them, but we rest some of the hits from time to time to keep them fresh. More "Freshness" coming soon."

Now if a groups of songs has already been scientifically selected to be among those "elite" few songs worthy enough for heavier (28 to 36-hour) rotation, why the need to ever have to "rest" them??? The only answer is because by their too frequent airplay the station is making people sick of some songs even though they "tested well"! And chances are, the "rested" songs are not the only ones which are annoying their listeners. But if more of the "fresh" songs (which had probably "tested" less well) had been in rotation all along, then perhaps listeners (and DJs/PDs as well) would not be growing weary of their skimpy library.

 

[michael hagerty]

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree...My thing is you can play those 500 staple songs along with 300 more to give the station some flavor..The problem with alot of stations is there is no flavor..Its vanilla or nothing and that's the issue...It has to be done within reason and cannot be based on any personal taste within the station...Thre are so many factors that go into a stations failure or success and music is only part of the puzzle..Let's face it its all about the dollars..Whether its 200 songs or tweny thousand..it has to be properly promoted..your sales staff has to sell it..and you have to have good people to execute it...I don't care to play what I like..I can do that at home..I want to please listeners and clients. I will say this one more time the #1 compliant I hear is from listeners is it seems like I hear the same songs on the radio everyday... and well if you play_____ by Fleetwood Mac why don't you play____________ by Fleetwood Mac...We owe the people an intelligent answer to that question and giving them a bunch of research shows____ is not a good enough answer in my opinion if we answer them at all.

Adding 300 tracks to a base of 500 means that just under 38% of your songs don't test as well as the others (or else you'd have been playing them all along).

To do that to a station that's doing well in ratings and revenue is like walking into the control room of a nuclear power plant and pushing a third of the buttons just to find out what they do.

Michael,
Stations with a "very conservative" playlist end up with much faster burnout. Such is the case with KJMK in Joplin. In spite of their high ratings, here's what's going on there now, according to their own Facebook comments:

(anonymous listener) "I love that you have added "Every Time I Think Of You" & "Ticket To Ride"! We listeners love newly added music! I especially love both these groups! Thanks!!"

Classic Hits 93.9 "You are welcome. We've always had them, but we rest some of the hits from time to time to keep them fresh. More "Freshness" coming soon."

Now if a groups of songs has already been scientifically selected to be among those "elite" few songs worthy enough for heavier (28 to 36-hour) rotation, why the need to ever have to "rest" them??? The only answer is because by their too frequent airplay the station is making people sick of some songs even though they "tested well"! And chances are, the "rested" songs are not the only ones which are annoying their listeners. But if more of the "fresh" songs (which had probably "tested" less well) had been in rotation all along, then perhaps listeners (and DJs/PDs as well) would not be growing weary of their skimpy library.

That's not the only answer. Could be that KJMK just did another music test, and some songs tested less well this time, while others ("Every Time I Think Of You" and "Ticket To Ride") did better. That would be optimal. Could be that they're knee-jerking to that half-point drop in the ratings, which wouldn't be.

The station says it rests songs from time to time, which is normal, especially with songs that are close to not making the cut. Those are songs that would be in a lower rotation anyway. And they haven't said what it is they're not playing.

That Facebook post didn't say the listener was sick of anything, just that she (or he) liked new music, The Babys and The Beatles. And as we've discussed before, in a city of 50,000+ people, Facebook comments from a handful of people aren't anything by which to make decisions.

 

[PirateJohnny]

In the days of contemporary Top 40 radio, there were usually three or more groups of current songs with a different rotation rate for each group. How many "oldies" stations group all the songs into one group with the same rotation rate and how many create different groups (and not just based on decade) with different rotation rates? Wouldn't that solve some of the more common complaints?

After joining in this discussion in all the threads in which it appears I believe we will never convince us to change our minds.

 

[CTListener]

In the days of contemporary Top 40 radio, there were usually three or more groups of current songs with a different rotation rate for each group. How many "oldies" stations group all the songs into one group with the same rotation rate and how many create different groups (and not just based on decade) with different rotation rates? Wouldn't that solve some of the more common complaints?

After joining in this discussion in all the threads in which it appears I believe we will never convince us to change our minds.

Nor will it convince the radio professionals to change their minds, and soon the whole discussion will be moot, as all the music central to this marathon debate will be too old to play for a "sellable" audience. Unless the next generations will take over and argue that there should be more by Jewel on their local classic hits station than "You Were Meant For Me" (currently the only Jewel song WDRC-FM plays).

 

[michael hagerty]

In the days of contemporary Top 40 radio, there were usually three or more groups of current songs with a different rotation rate for each group. How many "oldies" stations group all the songs into one group with the same rotation rate and how many create different groups (and not just based on decade) with different rotation rates? Wouldn't that solve some of the more common complaints?

After joining in this discussion in all the threads in which it appears I believe we will never convince us to change our minds.

I don't know of any oldies/classic hits station that doesn't have three or more rotations.

I take that back. There's one we talked about a year or more ago in the Antelope Valley area of California with a 10,000 song....or was it 20,000?...library...and the system is set up to play each one before repeating. So not only will it be months before you hear a specific song you like again, it could be years.

I had four for my gold when programming AC in the 70s, plus another 3 current and one recurrent.

 

[michael hagerty]

In the days of contemporary Top 40 radio, there were usually three or more groups of current songs with a different rotation rate for each group. How many "oldies" stations group all the songs into one group with the same rotation rate and how many create different groups (and not just based on decade) with different rotation rates? Wouldn't that solve some of the more common complaints?

After joining in this discussion in all the threads in which it appears I believe we will never convince us to change our minds.

Nor will it convince the radio professionals to change their minds, and soon the whole discussion will be moot, as all the music central to this marathon debate will be too old to play for a "sellable" audience. Unless the next generations will take over and argue that there should be more by Jewel on their local classic hits station than "You Were Meant For Me" (currently the only Jewel song WDRC-FM plays).

Which is likely what will happen.

Classic Hits has evolved out of a format ("Oldies") that a lot of people thought was dead 8 years ago because it had allowed itself to stagnate, almost never moving beyond 1956-1972, and with an average listener age rapidly approaching 60.

Today, Classic Hits is successful in most markets (including Joplin), and some people are wondering if there will be anything as old as 1972 played a year or two from now.

Eventually, I see Classic Hits returning to what Oldies was 40 years ago...songs from your high school and college years aimed at people in their mid-30s. But it's a process because the format calcified when it was Oldies.

 

[semoochie]

Up until about 1987 or so, Oldies stations generally went in short spurts. Suddenly, the music was available and everyone tuned in for awhile, until they got tired of the old songs. The ratings petered out and the station changed format because the audience was still too young and fickle. There are exceptions but that was the norm.

 

[michael hagerty]

Up until about 1987 or so, Oldies stations generally went in short spurts. Suddenly, the music was available and everyone tuned in for awhile, until they got tired of the old songs. The ratings petered out and the station changed format because the audience was still too young and fickle. There are exceptions but that was the norm.

Probably true, but the standard-bearers (WCBS-FM, KRTH, KOOL) have (except for KRTH's 10 years as an AC 1976-85 and CBS-FM's disastrous JACK experiment) hung in there.

And really, from 1992 on, the Bill Drake/Mike Phillips KRTH was the template a lot of oldies stations used.

 

[semoochie]

Other than the short list of stations you mentioned, somewhere around 1987-89 is when all the big FMs came aboard and for the most part, stayed with the format, until 2004 or so.

 

[RIN3GUY]

OK, we have designated terms of "powers," which every station plays, and "stiffs," which no station will play, but we also need to find a term for all the other songs which could be played and should be played but usually aren't, such as per my list on page 104. These are the songs which give personality and provide variety, making a station more than just another corporate clone or zombie. Such a group of songs, if sizeable enough, will also significantly assist in retaining listener interest, preventing so-called burnout or fatigue and eliminating the need to have to "rest" erstwhile "power" hits.

Right now we're really enjoying the "all-request lunch hour" on 'Big Oldies 107.3,' Richmond, Va.

 

[michael hagerty]

OK, we have designated terms of "powers," which every station plays, and "stiffs," which no station plays, but we also need to find a term for all the other songs which could be played and should be played but usually aren't, such as per my list on page 104. These are the songs which give personality and provide variety, making a station more than just another corporate clone or zombie. Such a group of songs, if sizeable enough, will also significantly assist in retaining listener interest, preventing so-called burnout or fatigue and the need to have to "rest" erstwhile "power" hits.

Right now we're really enjoying the "all-request lunch hour" on 'Big Oldies 107.3,' Richmond, Va.

First of all, "powers" are only the most frequently played songs. There are, for most stations, anywhere from 2 to God knows how many categories. I don't even know what they call them (when I programmed, they were color-coded...red for powers, yellow for songs on the way up, blue for songs on the way down, purple for re-currents, black for killer top-of-the hour songs that sounded great coming out of the legal ID, and Gold for oldies, broken down into Gold A, Gold B, Gold C, etc.).

Because chart positions from 20-57 years ago are irrelevant, a "stiff" is a song that doesn't test well enough to be played. No category needed beyond that.

 

[davideduardo]

OK, we have designated terms of "powers," which every station plays, and "stiffs," which no station will play, but we also need to find a term for all the other songs which could be played and should be played but usually aren't, such as per my list on page 104.

Gold based stations generally have categories such as "power" "medium" and "light". There may be four, even five subsets, depending on the PD's style, test results, etc.

This is no different than any other type of results based ranking... GPA's in school, MPG for cars, ROI on business. In radio the biggest songs play more often than the less strong, and the weak or negative ones do not play at all.

These are the songs which give personality and provide variety, making a station more than just another corporate clone or zombie.

The kind of song you suggest generally has one thing in common: high negatives (the cause of tune-out) and few positives. They contribute nothing to the listening experience, and the average listener just ends up listening less... or does not return at all.

Such a group of songs, if sizeable enough, will also significantly assist in retaining listener interest, preventing so-called burnout or fatigue and eliminating the need to have to "rest" erstwhile "power" hits.

"Powers" are songs that have very high test scores, very, very minimal negatives and no defects on repeated plays in MScores. We don't rest powers.

Some stations will have a group of songs that they know will build burn if in a full-time category. Usually, these are songs that pass in one test, and then are below cut off in the next and pass again in the next test. So the solution is often to give those songs a certain number of spins, rest them, and bring them back... but these are always very borderline songs.

Carefully managing song plays based on degree of acceptance and passion is a lot different from playing, for "variety", songs that are negative, drive off audience and don´t pass in tests or in MScore results.

As I've mentioned many times, in perceptual research, the stations that get the best attribute scores for maximum variety are short-list CHRs. Variety is not " a lot of songs" but, instead, "songs I all like".

 

[michael hagerty]

It appears in order to be subscribed to threads under the new system that you were under the old, you have to actually post in the new. That's the only reason for this post. Carry on.

 

[johndavis]

As I've mentioned many times, in perceptual research, the stations that get the best attribute scores for maximum variety are short-list CHRs. Variety is not " a lot of songs" but, instead, "songs I all like".

This listener comment from a perceptual on a failing AOR has always stuck with me...

"What makes you listen to (station A) more than (station B)?"

"(Station B [ours]) plays too many weird songs."

"What music is weird to you?"

"Stuff I've never heard before."

And that is why you don't play stiff records for personality and variety.

You might play a deep cut from a core artist as part of a special feature, properly promoted and supported by a more familiar cut on either side of it, but you'll never go deep for the sake of going deep if you want to have an audience. You can't pay the bills on the 5 guys who dig your favorite stiffs unless you're streaming to the world on Shoutcast and it's only costing you $25/month to get 6 listeners, one of which is you.

Heck, even on Shoutcast, the times I get the most listeners are the times when I play nothing but the hits.

 

[michael hagerty]

This listener comment from a perceptual on a failing AOR has always stuck with me...

"What makes you listen to (station A) more than (station B)?"

"(Station B [ours]) plays too many weird songs."

"What music is weird to you?"

"Stuff I've never heard before."

And that is why you don't play stiff records for personality and variety.

You might play a deep cut from a core artist as part of a special feature, properly promoted and supported by a more familiar cut on either side of it, but you'll never go deep for the sake of going deep if you want to have an audience. You can't pay the bills on the 5 guys who dig your favorite stiffs unless you're streaming to the world on Shoutcast and it's only costing you $25/month to get 6 listeners, one of which is you.

Heck, even on Shoutcast, the times I get the most listeners are the times when I play nothing but the hits.

I may have told this story before, but about 7 or 8 years ago, there was an FM here in Phoenix (a rimshot from one of the mountains near Prescott) that decided to do Nostalgia right....not just the three or four big hits from Sinatra, Nat Cole, Dean Martin and Streisand that you usually hear (no disrespect to the folks at "America's Best Music").

They'd play the hits...absolutely...but they'd also play songs from the albums that weren't singles. Just for flavor...probably one out of five or six songs. As long as it was really tasty, it was in. And it was really tasty. In glorious FM stereo.

At the time, I was the director of programming and promotion for a local TV station. My GM was in his early 60s and liked the music from that era (and the Rolling Stones...he had "Start Me Up" for a ringtone). One day, we had lunch with some clients at the Capital Grille. There were probably 7 of us at the table and at 50, I was the kid. The conversation turned to the radio station, which had been on the air about four months at the time. I expected raves. Here's what I heard:

"It's nice to have it in stereo, but they need to play more of the good stuff."

"Yeah, if you're going to play Sinatra, why not play "I Get A Kick Out Of You" instead of some song I've never heard."

"Or even some song I have. Do I need to hear his 9th biggest hit? Life's too short. Give me his three or five biggest. Then I'll hear them more often and there's time to hear the other artists' three or five biggest, too."

My hand to God, that's verbatim.

Not kids, not stupid people. Adults with money (I was probably the only one at the table with a 5-figure income), probably exactly the kind of people the station had in mind when they launched the format.

As much as I caution against anecdotal evidence, I will tell you that the station never got traction, and flipped to an adult CHR, where it appears to be able to at least pay its bills.

 

[Thomps2525]

So the station's clients thought the station should focus on only the hits...but what did the listeners[/i] think? There are so many people---myself included---who complain about repetition and shallow playlists and want to hear more low-charting songs, I would think there'd be enough of us in any particular metropolitan area to support a station with a deep playlist.

By the way, Sinatra had seven number-one hits, including his recordings with Tommy Dorsey and Harry James. His eighth biggest hit was My Way, which reached #2 and was on the chart for 30 weeks. His "ninth biggest hit" was Young At Heart, the title song of a movie starring Sinatra; the song got to #2 in 1954 and was on the chart for 22 weeks. And some schmuck thinks that 'life's too short" to hear Young At Heart, eh? Wow.

 

[landtuna]

This listener comment from a perceptual on a failing AOR has always stuck with me...
"Stuff I've never heard before."

EVERY song is "one you haven't heard before" (until you hear it the first time).

This makes no sense.

 

[landtuna]

And some schmuck thinks that 'life's too short" to hear Young At Heart, eh? Wow.

Call me a schmuck but I would be happy NEVER to have to listen to another Sinatra song ever again. Most overrated popular singer in history IMHO.

 

[johndavis]

So the station's clients thought the station should focus on only the hits...but what did the listeners[/i] think?

I think you missed the point.

The clients were customers of Michael's TV station, not of the radio station, and knowing the properties, not with common ownership.

They were most likely the target demo, though.

BWTFDIK?

And another FM in that market had me worried when they signed on because they were planning to come straight at me at an AM that I oversaw. Except they played such an unfocused mess of music (they played charted hits, regardless of whether anyone wanted to hear them in the present... sound familiar?) they never got traction outside of when they did all Christmas. Their Christmas programming stole my lunch money because it was well done. If they ever had figured out how to program the rest of the year, they would have whooped my @$$.