• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

KRTH 2013 Labor Day Countdown

Hello.

Jumping into this discussion.

I have heard over the years that most listener countdowns are fake. KRTH's most certainly is.

You've just accused the station of lying. Got anything to back that up?

And if you think WCBS-FM's countdown was legit because "Tracy" (I assume by the Cuff Links) made #18, you need to ask yourself...

What are the odds, with WCBS-FM's cume, that "Tracy" would garner enough legitimate votes (we'd be talking tens of thousands) to rank in the top 20 out of nowhere?

I won't question the legitimacy of the WCBS-FM countdown. If they said it was listener input, I'll believe them. But you can't (without evidence) buy one and not the other.
 
Last edited:

So what's next, Justin Beiber or Bruno Mars impersonators? There will never be another King, Mr. Hagerty. Rock and Roll will never duplicate itself. There will always be Elvis impersonators, it just will never go away competely. It's iconic in Vegas to have them.

So does this mean that Mickey Mouse and Snow White (circa 1930's...) will disappear from Disneyland in favor of Monsters Inc and Simba?
 
So what's next, Justin Beiber or Bruno Mars impersonators? There will never be another King, Mr. Hagerty. Rock and Roll will never duplicate itself. There will always be Elvis impersonators, it just will never go away competely. It's iconic in Vegas to have them.

So does this mean that Mickey Mouse and Snow White (circa 1930's...) will disappear from Disneyland in favor of Monsters Inc and Simba?

"Always" is a long time. So's "never".


"Legends In Concert", the biggest and longest-running of the celebrity impersonator revues in Las Vegas has moved on from its original roots of Elvis, Sinatra, Dean and Sammy and now features (in addition to Elvis):

Michael Jackson
Britney Spears
Rod Stewart
Elton John
Aretha Franklin
Faith Hill
Tim McGraw
Steven Tyler
Stevie Wonder
Adele
Whoopi Goldberg
Madonna
Lady Gaga
The Blues Brothers
Cher
The Temptations

As for the comparison...unlike Elvis, Disney's characters don't die, and are a part of childhood for generation after generation. However, Disney does put characters on ice. Mickey's the franchise. Snow White's close. But among those "timeless" Disney characters are these whose costumes are in mothballs:

The Big Bad Wolf
Dumbo
Huey
Dewey
Louie
The Three Little Pigs
 
"Legends In Concert", the biggest and longest-running of the celebrity impersonator revues in Las Vegas has moved on from its original roots of Elvis, Sinatra, Dean and Sammy and now features (in addition to Elvis):

Michael Jackson
Britney Spears
Rod Stewart
Elton John
Aretha Franklin
Faith Hill
Tim McGraw
Steven Tyler
Stevie Wonder
Adele
Whoopi Goldberg
Madonna
Lady Gaga
The Blues Brothers
Cher
The Temptations

Fully half of that list are not "legends".
 


Fully half of that list are not "legends".

From a standpoint of personal taste, I'd agree with you (even if we didn't agree on which ones), but the show is successful, has been for 30 years, and they obviously are pleasing their audience.

Interestingly, I just looked up the average age of a Las Vegas tourist....49.
 
From a standpoint of personal taste, I'd agree with you (even if we didn't agree on which ones), but the show is successful, has been for 30 years, and they obviously are pleasing their audience.

The LV audience, in my experience, is typically a low-threshold audience - that is, easy to please. Part of that is due to the anticipation of a show (any show), part due to alcohol intake and part due to general emotion with the party atmosphere of Vegas in general. Most of the professional shows there are also very well done and fairly expensive to attend which tends to make people more satisfied when spending lots of money. The old Sands Rat Pack ad hoc beer-fest wouldn't go over today as well as it once did for all the above reasons.

As for Elvis, the Colonel did him a huge disfavor when he departed from his Blues and RnR foots into the ballads and put him in potboiler movies which cheapened his character. Although I was never a fan I admit he was a very gifted singer and a decent actor when in the right situation and could have been a huge star. As it was he was turned into a charactercher of himself long before he bit the dust and it has gotten much worse since his death. I can think of no other famous person (with the single exception of Liberace) who has suffered a similar fate and for this reason alone both will most probably be forgotten as the people my age who remember the real person die off.
 


The LV audience, in my experience, is typically a low-threshold audience - that is, easy to please. Part of that is due to the anticipation of a show (any show), part due to alcohol intake and part due to general emotion with the party atmosphere of Vegas in general. Most of the professional shows there are also very well done and fairly expensive to attend which tends to make people more satisfied when spending lots of money. The old Sands Rat Pack ad hoc beer-fest wouldn't go over today as well as it once did for all the above reasons.

As for Elvis, the Colonel did him a huge disfavor when he departed from his Blues and RnR foots into the ballads and put him in potboiler movies which cheapened his character. Although I was never a fan I admit he was a very gifted singer and a decent actor when in the right situation and could have been a huge star. As it was he was turned into a charactercher of himself long before he bit the dust and it has gotten much worse since his death. I can think of no other famous person (with the single exception of Liberace) who has suffered a similar fate and for this reason alone both will most probably be forgotten as the people my age who remember the real person die off.

Agreed.

Vegas was bad for both those guys in the long run....and Elvis wasn't there long. He bombed in '56, stayed away until '69 and died 8 years later. But the image most people have is fat Elvis in the white jumpsuit...and that's Vegas Elvis.
 


The LV audience, in my experience, is typically a low-threshold audience - that is, easy to please. Part of that is due to the anticipation of a show (any show), part due to alcohol intake and part due to general emotion with the party atmosphere of Vegas in general. Most of the professional shows there are also very well done and fairly expensive to attend which tends to make people more satisfied when spending lots of money. The old Sands Rat Pack ad hoc beer-fest wouldn't go over today as well as it once did for all the above reasons.

As for Elvis, the Colonel did him a huge disfavor when he departed from his Blues and RnR foots into the ballads and put him in potboiler movies which cheapened his character. Although I was never a fan I admit he was a very gifted singer and a decent actor when in the right situation and could have been a huge star. [FONT]


You're right. With just a bit more quality management, he could have really hit it big.
 
I agree. We'll never know how well Elvis would have done if he had kept Bob Neal as his manager.
 
It sounds as if it's anybody's guess whether this countdown was completely based on listener votes and in fact legitimate. Or was this the easiest and most seamless way of moving the KRTH playlist out of the 60s and deeper into the 80s? * There were far too many obvious omissions, such as" hey Jude" - *and conversely songs such as "rappers delight" "on the dark side" *that one would not be consider to be a good fit with the older demographic KRTH supposedly plays to. All of that maybe somewhat immaterial though. A greater concern would seem to be *the latest book and the ratings drop in the new pds first full month at the helm. Subtle changes, yet changes nonetheless. The interesting question going forward -will Rick Thomas be to KRTH in 2013 what John Sebastian was to KHJ in 1978?
 
March 2013: KOLA drops 1960s, adds 1990s.

October 2013: KRTH................?
 
It sounds as if it's anybody's guess whether this countdown was completely based on listener votes and in fact legitimate. Or was this the easiest and most seamless way of moving the KRTH playlist out of the 60s and deeper into the 80s? * There were far too many obvious omissions, such as" hey Jude" - *and conversely songs such as "rappers delight" "on the dark side" *that one would not be consider to be a good fit with the older demographic KRTH supposedly plays to. All of that maybe somewhat immaterial though. A greater concern would seem to be *the latest book and the ratings drop in the new pds first full month at the helm. Subtle changes, yet changes nonetheless. The interesting question going forward -will Rick Thomas be to KRTH in 2013 what John Sebastian was to KHJ in 1978?

1. "Hey Jude" not making a lot of 40-somethings' 3 favorite songs is not a surprise.

2. "Rapper's Delight" was part of a 1,500 song specialty weekend some time back, not this countdown.

3. "On The Dark Side" is a Springsteen-esque Top 10 from 29 years ago. On what planet is that not a good fit for a 40-something Classic Hits listener?

4. 3/10ths of a point in the meaningless 6+ numbers is not anything to put Rick Thomas' name in a dead pool over...especially since nothing has actually changed yet.

5. Sebastian, to the amazement of everyone who sees the numbers, actually reversed a 4-book slide when he took over KHJ. It had gone from a 4.3 to a 3.3. His first book took it to a 3.6, beating KLOS and KMET, both of which had overtaken KHJ.

There was no stopping rock on FM in 1978, especially KMET, so that was a short-lived achievement, but KHJ beat every other Top 40 in Los Angeles (KFI, KTNQ, KIQQ) as well as KLOS for Sebastian's entire tenure. It wasn't until after he left that KHJ lost the Top 40 crown to KFI by 2/10ths of a point.

Whether you agree with the approach he took, and I've told John personally what I think was wrong with it, those are the facts from Arbitron at the time.
 
Now tell us what you think of Sebastian using KHJ-style formatics and heavy rotations on KZLA (1996-98) and hiring Humble Harve (!) to play country music.
 
Now tell us what you think of Sebastian using KHJ-style formatics and heavy rotations on KZLA (1996-98) and hiring Humble Harve (!) to play country music.

The most successful country stations in modern times have used Top 40 formatics and rotations. It works.

Harve's a pro. Sebastian gave him a chance. I don't know what either of them thinks about it, whether it was a success or not. Charlie Tuna was doing country at the same time. I don't remember anyone suggesting Art Astor didn't know what he was doing by hiring him.
 
I'm surprised this thread has continued as long as it has. Although KRTH seems to generate a great deal of passion. To clarify a couple of points from a prior post. The fact that "hey Jude" - whether one likes the song or not, not finding itself in a classic hits / oldies top 500 countdown is still rather shocking to me.

"Rappers delight" *by the sugar hill gang amassed enough votes on this years survey to come in at number 189

"On the dark side", not musically surprising, but much like Bryan Adams "summer of 69" - was not a record to my knowledge ever played on KRTH previously - and being such is difficult to believe would attract enough votes to make the survey and beat out perennial favorites.

Ratings slippage for one book may not be indicative of anything. However many here have been citing KRTH issues when they were at 3.8 - 3.5 may be cause for concern.*

As for mr.Sebastian - no doubt top 40 music on am was in deep trouble when he replaced Michael spears in 1978. If memory serves me correct, within months, he blew up the format of the previous 13 years. He is remembered as the one who brought drastic, maybe desperate changes to the playlist, took away the personalities and removed the jingles all in part to make KHJ sound more "fm". It didn't work. By the time chuck Martin took over in 1979 the damage done was too deep.
 
I'm surprised this thread has continued as long as it has. Although KRTH seems to generate a great deal of passion. To clarify a couple of points from a prior post. The fact that "hey Jude" - whether one likes the song or not, not finding itself in a classic hits / oldies top 500 countdown is still rather shocking to me.

"Rappers delight" *by the sugar hill gang amassed enough votes on this years survey to come in at number 189

"On the dark side", not musically surprising, but much like Bryan Adams "summer of 69" - was not a record to my knowledge ever played on KRTH previously - and being such is difficult to believe would attract enough votes to make the survey and beat out perennial favorites.

Ratings slippage for one book may not be indicative of anything. However many here have been citing KRTH issues when they were at 3.8 - 3.5 may be cause for concern.*

As for mr.Sebastian - no doubt top 40 music on am was in deep trouble when he replaced Michael spears in 1978. If memory serves me correct, within months, he blew up the format of the previous 13 years. He is remembered as the one who brought drastic, maybe desperate changes to the playlist, took away the personalities and removed the jingles all in part to make KHJ sound more "fm". It didn't work. By the time chuck Martin took over in 1979 the damage done was too deep.

I stand corrected on "Rapper's Delight".

Again, remember that the list was asking people, from the top of their heads to name their three favorite songs. Not "what do you think was big or important". If you figure that the bulk of votes were likely people in their 40s and "Hey Jude" is 45, it's not a surprise. I'm 57. "Hey Jude" might...maybe...have made my three favorite songs the first month it was out. Not since.

Some people here think the countdown is rigged if it's only songs on the KRTH playlist. I agree that those songs are most likely to get votes from KRTH listeners, but it's clear that when you say "your three favorite songs", there will be others. It doesn't surprise me that either Bryan Adams or John Cafferty had enough common votes.

"Rapper's Delight" surprises me.

6+ tells you nothing about demos. This would be a good time for David to tell us if there was any significant change 25-54.

As for Sebastian, well, KHJ really wasn't a model of stability. Within 7 months of Bill Drake's departure from RKO, Gerry Petersen was playing 180 records total at 48 RPM and writing memos telling jocks like Danny Martinez and Tony Mann to drop their "g"s to sound more relatable.

A year later, Charlie Van Dyke hired the best voices in the business (keeping only Machine Gun Kelly) and put on a polished, precise sound).

After two and a half years, Michael Spears tried making the station more adult, which scaled back production values, curtailed jock talk and instituted no-talk, no ID music sets.

And the numbers fell. Teens and young adults began bolting...not to KFI or KTNQ, but to KLOS and KMET, which blew past KHJ.

Sebastian was hired because in 1978, he was the most successful AM Top 40 programmer in the country. KDWB was huge, beating not only Top 40 challengers, but AOR.

When he got to KHJ, he realized it was KMET and KLOS that was eating KHJ's lunch. And he stopped it, reversed it for a book. Stayed ahead of KLOS and the other Top 40s, but KMET came back. John chose to defend against them.

In 20/20 hindsight, he could never have won that. But at the time, it was KMET that was taking KHJ's audience. And he kept KHJ #1 among Top 40s while he was there.

Did it work? Not in the long term. What would have?
 
Some people here think the countdown is rigged if it's only songs on the KRTH playlist. I agree that those songs are most likely to get votes from KRTH listeners, but it's clear that when you say "your three favorite songs", there will be others.

When a specialty is announced ahead of time and the anticipation is high for the outcome, we sort of expect something exciting, different and ear-popping. To basically hear the same weekly rotated songs, featured in a countdown, in a different order, to make it sound like it's something no one has heard throughout the entire year, leaves a question mark in my head (and others for that matter). So, when it is announced that this particular special is based solely on votes and the outcome is 98% to what we normally hear anyways, one has to wonder just a bit. Notice I said (98%), there were a "few" songs that were played in this countdown that were "out of the ordinary".

Frankly, the only thing that was different in this countdown, than any other on KRTH in recent years, is that far fewer 60's were played and more 70's and 80's were added, like an introduction to a new era on KRTH, which is what Rick Thomas is aiming for, to get his ratings back up. I believe, the top 20 was definitely listener voted and ranked accordingly. The lower 480 was most likely re-organized and featured to the new sound KRTH is looking for. If you look at the playlists since last Monday, it closely resembles the countdown as a whole, with fewer 60's now and more 70's and 80's.

And we all know that long time listeners of KRTH did vote for songs that were from the 60's and early 70's. Most of those songs did not tabulate. The songs featured this time around were aimed for the lower to mid portions of their target audience and it showed.
 
Those are just two songs from the 90's, out of hundreds of potential song titles.

Here's a small list, if I could vote for all of these, I would:

1) Crazy - Seal (1991)
2) Don't Walk Away - Jade (1993)
3) Tom's Diner - Suzanne Vega & DNA (1990)
4) You Can't Deny It - Lisa Stansfield (1990)
5) Unbelievable - EMF (1991)
6) Just Another Day - Jon Secada (1992)
7) Come Undone - Duran Duran (1993)
8 I Swear - All 4 One (1994)
9) Fantasy - Mariah Carey (1995)
10) Run Away - Real McCoy (1995)
11) As I Lay Me Down - Sophie B Hawkins (1995)
12) Don't Speak - No Doubt (1996)
13) Return of the Mack - Mark Morrison (1997)
14) Tubthumping - Chumbawamba (1997)
15) Do You Know (What It Takes) - Robyn (1997)
16) Gettin' Jiggy With It - Will Smith (1998)
17) Crush - Jennifer Paige (1998)
18) Smooth - Santana (1999)
19) Someday - Sugar Ray (1999)
20) Bailamos - Enrique Iglesias (1999)

I could list 50 more 1990's songs that would fit KRTH, but 20 is good enough.

With the exception of Smooth, I think you've just proved that 90's will never work mixed in with what KRTH plays now..
 
With the exception of Smooth, I think you've just proved that 90's will never work mixed in with what KRTH plays now..

In time, some 90's will be added as the 70's unfortunately phase out. That list was just an example of what "could" air years from now.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom