KTRB 860

[davideduardo]

Given the patterns shown in the 2005 plots, KTRB's pattern would be fairly simple to produce. I mean, heck, this is nothing compared to the engineering mess that is KTCT 1050 (the old KOFY) or the defunct KWUN 1480, which were nightmares. But KTRB, by contrast, is a piece of cake.

What I don't understand at all is the Sunol site. It's southeast of SF not northeast as the KTRB specs showed when the station was being proposed. I don't know what kind of nulls it was supposed to produce, but I'd suggest that Sunol made it extremely complicated given that a null to

That's what leads me to believe that there was something else in play besides the desirability of the site, since as far as I've read on the issue, Sunol is not a desirable site at all.

The night pattern needs to be far removed from the population areas around the bay so that it can "open up" and cover everything from Marin County to Santa Clara County. As designed, the usable night signal barely covered San Jose and was severely nulled as you moved towards Campbell.

A tower site on the bay would miss all of the South Bay, and also the northeastern areas towards Vallejo. And because the pattern would not be able to open up enough, even parts of the north bay areas would be sacrificed.

The biggest obstacle to the south is XEMO in Tijuana. It requires enormous protection by night. And there are multiple restrictions on first adjacent channel overlaps, too. So the site, ideally, has to be right about where it is... or a bit to the south of that location if more Santa Clara County coverage is desired.

 

[alok]

OK to all that commented on the KTRB 860 Sunol site,so it seems it is still there,but not in use. I knew the reasons it was not in use,mainly the generators.

Also I did not know that nightime from the Haywood KFAX site ,KTRB is now down to 5 kw non-DA.

Papas I think had good intentions with KTRB until the economy went south in 2008 ,remember originally they were going to have two sites for 860 KTRB ,a daytime site with I think 4 very tall towers ,like 600 feet , up near Pittsburg and the nightime site in Sunol.
The Pittsburg site had PGE ,I believe, but the Sunol site no PGE.

Papas also put on KMPH in Modesto on 840 when they moved 860 from Modesto to SF. Good intentions were there ,it just happened at the wrong time.

Al

 

[DavidKaye]

Those two issues (especially in CA) can doom an Ancient Modulation operator to a life of fueling generators. Crawford fought the battle in SoCal with KBRT and through dogged determination (and probably divine intervention) succeeded in getting PG&E power to their new site in the foothills. Until a new owner comes along, it's rather doubtful anything longterm will be done at Sunol.

PG&E serves them? I'd have thought it was either Socal Edison or the LA DWP.

 

[davideduardo]

Those two issues (especially in CA) can doom an Ancient Modulation operator to a life of fueling generators. Crawford fought the battle in SoCal with KBRT and through dogged determination (and probably divine intervention) succeeded in getting PG&E power to their new site in the foothills. Until a new owner comes along, it's rather doubtful anything longterm will be done at Sunol.

PG&E serves them? I'd have thought it was either Socal Edison or the LA DWP.

DWP only serves the City of LA and some of the "surrounded" LA county / LA Baisin cities. A number of LA County locations, like Glendale, Pasadena and Burbank, have their own municipal power companies. The KBRT site is in the mountains, about half way between the city of Orange and Corona, just barely inside Orange County. I believe that area is served by the Anaheim Electricity Company, although it is virtually surrounded by Edison territory.

 

[boiseengineer]

*off topic*
According to the "Complete Project Narrative" for the KBRT build
here: http://www.crawfordbroadcasting.com/engineering.htm
It was Southern California Edison.

 

[chris319]

Just catching up with this thread.

"RECENT OPERATION FROM THE NIGHT SITE WITH THE GENERATORS HAS CAUSED SUBSTANTIAL DAMAGE TO THE TRANSMITTER"

Can someone explain how powering a transmitter from a generator can damage it? All I can think of is that the generator would have to be unregulated and go over voltage, in which case the generator manufacturer might have some liability.

 

[Truthiness4DaBray]

Just catching up with this thread.

"RECENT OPERATION FROM THE NIGHT SITE WITH THE GENERATORS HAS CAUSED SUBSTANTIAL DAMAGE TO THE TRANSMITTER"

Can someone explain how powering a transmitter from a generator can damage it? All I can think of is that the generator would have to be unregulated and go over voltage, in which case the generator manufacturer might have some liability.

The transmitter is fine. Some power modules need repair. The generators reached the end of their useful life, and Pappas couldn't afford to fix or replace the gens, so they rented a smaller genset that couldn't get the tx to more than 20kw. What the FCC was told sounds lame.

 

[DavidKaye]

Have these folks running this broadcasting company ever heard of the great quality generator sets made by Catarpiller? Just google them!

Caterpillar is not about to trade out perfectly good merchandise for airtime on a station that nobody listens to. And, have you been looking? Pappas is in bankruptcy. It is being run by a court-appointed receiver.

 

[chris319]

This reminds me of the c*ck-and-bull story KQEC gave the FCC for going dark in 1980 and which resulted in the license being revoked.

The Sunol site should never have been built -- too much expense for an AM station that doesn't even show up in the ratings and a daypart when nobody listens.

 

[Truthiness4DaBray]

This reminds me of the c*ck-and-bull story KQEC gave the FCC for going dark in 1980 and which resulted in the license being revoked.

The Sunol site should never have been built -- too much expense for an AM station that doesn't even show up in the ratings and a daypart when nobody listens.

Most would not have built that site, but Pappas did. Mix equal part ego, need, and greed... Do you think today's FCC cares enough to dig enough to get to the revocation stage?

 

[chris319]

In 1980, others were vying for the KQEC license and prevailed. 30+ years later KTRB is a white elephant and I doubt anyone, even the FCC, much cares.

I would add a heapin' helpin' of stupidity to the Pappas recipe. Given the cost of acquiring the land and building the site, good luck making the initial investment back, not to mention the cost of tank after tank of propane. A case could be made for shutting down the Sunol site altogether and either going off the air or doing a flea-powered signal at night. Still, it's hard to imagine such a marginal operation ever generating a positive cash flow.

 

[stewie]

It's too bad the FCC doesn't have the manpower to investigate some of these claims.

They certainly don't now with the shutdown.

Not the same FCC it once was. Time to fire up my pirate station again. Kidding of course if you work for the FCC and you're reading this.

 

[boiseengineer]

It is amazing however that the bottom feeders like KTRB in large markets can still afford to spend $$$ on facilities.

(I ran a pirate station of unknown ERP with a 10-element yagi from Walnut Creek for a few months in '97. Could hear the stupid thing all the way to Dublin but we couldn't hit Concord no matter what we tried.)

 

[stewie]

It is amazing however that the bottom feeders like KTRB in large markets can still afford to spend $$$ on facilities.

(I ran a pirate station of unknown ERP with a 10-element yagi from Walnut Creek for a few months in '97. Could hear the stupid thing all the way to Dublin but we couldn't hit Concord no matter what we tried.)

Was the Yagi pointed south?

 

[chris319]

The present-day FCC likes pirates because they mean a forfeiture in the neighborhood of $10,000.

What I've read about Mr. Pappas leads me to think that he liked to borrow money but paying it back was another story.

 

[davideduardo]

The present-day FCC likes pirates because they mean a forfeiture in the neighborhood of $10,000.

The cost of tracking down and closing a pirate as well as enforcing a fine is probably about 10 times the amount of the fine. And then consider that many pirates have no money and no assets of value; the fines are hard to collect.

What I've read about Mr. Pappas leads me to think that he liked to borrow money but paying it back was another story.

The Pappas family had a long history in broadcasting. Their expansion in television coupled with the economic downturn tore the company apart.

Borrowing money is part of nearly every business, large or small. For years, the Pappas paid their obligations. I don't think that there was ever an intent to avoid payment since defaulting and bankruptcy generally causes the owners of a business to lose their own equity.

 

[DavidKaye]

The cost of tracking down and closing a pirate as well as enforcing a fine is probably about 10 times the amount of the fine. And then consider that many pirates have no money and no assets of value; the fines are hard to collect.

Even so, the FCC managed to fine Daniel Roberts of Pirate Cat Radio here in SF, even though he felt he had an ironclad defense: He didn't own or rent any transmitter site Pirate Cat used. He only provided audio to the transmitter. They assessed him $10,000 a day and he suddenly had to leave the country for "family matters".

As to Pappas, I agree that they wouldn't willfully go bankrupt. Few companies ever do that, and for the reason you mention: the owners would lose their equity.

But I still go with the "bonehead" idea, that the Sunol site was chosen for some other reason than good, sound radio engineering. It's in the hills east of Sunol, impossible to get to, no PG&E lines, bad ground conductivity, and the signal appears to be absorbed by the hills. When they first turned the thing on, it was spotty in SF when the 50kw signal should have been blanketing SF. It actually sounded like the signal was coming via E-skip.

 

[stewie]

Even so, the FCC managed to fine Daniel Roberts of Pirate Cat Radio here in SF, even though he felt he had an ironclad defense: He didn't own or rent any transmitter site Pirate Cat used. He only provided audio to the transmitter. They assessed him $10,000 a day and he suddenly had to leave the country for "family matters".

As to Pappas, I agree that they wouldn't willfully go bankrupt. Few companies ever do that, and for the reason you mention: the owners would lose their equity.

But I still go with the "bonehead" idea, that the Sunol site was chosen for some other reason than good, sound radio engineering. It's in the hills east of Sunol, impossible to get to, no PG&E lines, bad ground conductivity, and the signal appears to be absorbed by the hills. When they first turned the thing on, it was spotty in SF when the 50kw signal should have been blanketing SF. It actually sounded like the signal was coming via E-skip.

A little off topic but... Doesn't the FCC first issue a warning to the pirate? By the time a fine is issued you're pretty much asking for it. Right?

 

[chris319]

Borrowing money is one thing. Overleveraging your media empire and making unsound business decision such as building a white-elephant XMTR site is another.

<< the Sunol site was chosen for some other reason than good, sound radio engineering. It's in the hills east of Sunol, impossible to get to, no PG&E lines, bad ground conductivity >>

Technical issues aside, it was built to put a nighttime signal on the AM band which is falling out of vogue and during a daypart when listening is at an ebb and they've got a format nobody listens to. Technically, if there were compelling reasons to keep this station on the air at all, they'd be better off keeping the KFAX diplex arangement and going off the air at night or down to flea power off the KFAX stick. Even then, good luck making money with it.

I would love to know how much it cost them to acquire the land for this site or how much they lease it for.

 

[davideduardo]

Borrowing money is one thing. Overleveraging your media empire and making unsound business decision such as building a white-elephant XMTR site is another.

Keep in mind that the process to establish this station goes back more than a decade, with procedures started to move KTRB's 860 channel from Modesto to San Francisco.

At that time, KGO was billing around $40 million a year and talk was thriving in the diary-measured environment.

In the process of building this station, radio revenues stagnated... and AM listening fell and got older. But the plan was already in process.

As the station went on the air, the recession started and the PPM came to San Francisco. Revenue in the market fell and listening patterns were shown to be very different.