What horse do you have in this race, Jetson?
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WBAI Struggles
- Thread starter Theater of My Mind
- Start date
Oh, it makes me angry almost to the point of sick, to hear most of the left and right hatred fighting garbage on the air. This goes for both TV and radio. As I said in my earlier post, tyrants and dictators love to keep a population divided against itself. I saw the Occupy movement fail because it brought too many causes in that forced mainstream out and divided the movement into nothing. How long must we suffer the hardship and misery from living under a government so corrupt and dishonest?
Everybody wants a flag or banner to march with or hide behind, maybe it's best if USA breaks up and we only have State governments but the Federal Government will never let this happen. True, WBAI is ultra radical and very stubborn at times but people still need a voice. Even pirate stations at least try to pick up as many listeners as they can, except for a few broadcasting hate. It's a free country so I dislike seeing any fringes be silenced either, like former Mayor Rudy once said, “our strength is in our diversity”.
I have nothing to do with WBAI, honest. I am only a listener somewhere far away that should be doing something else besides listening to radio and commenting here. Still and all, I know my feedback and advice has value and may prevent some big problems in the future. How about the stupid useless play fighting in Congress over the debt ceiling and Obamacare? It nearly drove USA into Civil War and some people got hurt or killed when they cracked up from seeing it. It was all a stupid distraction and now you can watch your money evaporate and become worthless.
I suppose I could go back to radio, I don't know, I still expect to be paid and last time I worked in radio I was mostly building the automation that put some very fine talent out of a job. Last thing I want to hear on the air is those infomercials. Ya, I used to like them, very educational and informative but now it's the same old nonsense and scams.
I also fear that good honest programming is being pushed out of mainstream by “THE MAN” to make room for the usual propaganda.
I may even dislike 80% of the programming on WBAI, I just cannot relate to it and get nothing from it. I could suggest more educational programing and perhaps work on advanced solutions to todays problems. New ideas, not the same tired broken cycle of failure. That's where the think tank concept comes in. Governments only come up with pork barrel solutions that scam the public and puts money where it doesn't belong.
What better way to solve problems than to use the massive audience, callers with ideas and answers. Why aren't more stations doing this? WBAI needs to take the lead and stay far ahead of the pack, this is how they win the race. Other stations will try to imitate and follow. Better ratings means more listeners and more money. The entire nation improves.
Yeah I mean if you wanted to downgrade one of the most valuable radio stations in the country, an Empire class B, to a B1 with a big ol' directional null and a smaller coverage area at a lower height, I guess you could.
You could also burn stacks of $100 bills.
That doesn't make it a good idea.
Downgrade or upgrade depends on the engineer that designed it. I have seen some very fine work done with cooperation between talented station engineers and the best antenna companies. It's not like in the old days you know. Today, using computers we can try many different configurations and pick the best one without the high costs and risks in the past. It's worth looking in to. Sometimes you make up for the null with better signal reaching in the direction of more listsners and larger overall signal. At worst they could reserve WTC as a backup site and maybe get some of that Hurricane Sandy government money to pay for it. Remember they mentioned on air, losses due to Wall Street location outages from Sandy.
Good comment.
Yes, true, government money corrupts absolutely. They are entitled to their fair share od disaster relief though, as long as the government is giving it away. Does seem stupid and wasteful though. Government paying those that choose to be in the way of the forces of nature. Maybe just use it for folks in really bad shape. NJ Gov. had to reject free FEMA gasoline because he feared it would start riots. Instead he had it delivered to gas stations for free but gas station were allowed to charge money for it and keep the profits.
We all need to see the good in people. WBAI included. Give it time. I am confident with some humbling over there they will catch on and re-invent good radio.
Yes, true, government money corrupts absolutely. They are entitled to their fair share od disaster relief though, as long as the government is giving it away. Does seem stupid and wasteful though. Government paying those that choose to be in the way of the forces of nature. Maybe just use it for folks in really bad shape. NJ Gov. had to reject free FEMA gasoline because he feared it would start riots. Instead he had it delivered to gas stations for free but gas station were allowed to charge money for it and keep the profits.
We all need to see the good in people. WBAI included. Give it time. I am confident with some humbling over there they will catch on and re-invent good radio.
I'm interested in how those talented engineers are going to make a master antenna directional on one specific frequency.
AFAIK, the only recent-memory directional commercial B on Manhattan was WTFM which had, for a while, a separate and directional antenna on one of the WTC towers. It only could exist by being on the second mast and using its own piece of vertical space. Later, a site coordination was engineered, allowing it to go non-directional under new owners.
We can assume that the costs of the new, yet unfinished, site will be rather comparable to the ESB costs and the moving expenses would be significant, as most stations build a new site before leaving the old one... including new transmitters and related gear.
People said it couldn't be done.....
Just about any radiation pattern can be created by using parasitic elements, reflectors and directors arranged first on computer and later on the antenna mast. I have seen it done. Start with a simple dipole and you bend and shape the pattern using the various elements. It's a bit of work to assemble, all has to be measured and installed correctly. I don't know what other stations will be using the WTC site though
so maybe it was a bad idea. Antenna companies will be happy to design one though, engineers can draw a proposed signal pattern and company can match it fairly well. My station used a custom designed ERI antenna with very good results. They were able to double their power and coverage with out interfering with 3 other stations in adjacent channels. And 2 distant stations on the same channel.
The extra cost for this is nominal, the parts needed, all off the shelf and low cost, easily replaceable
over time as needed. It took strong argument with station owners to get this done, I drew up some basic designs and our team of consulting engineers approved it. There was some added work and cost with the FCC but they were also impressed and gave it a go. All in all it tripled the value of the station. People said it couldn't be done, well I did it.
WBAI might even be able to modify existing antenna, without drilling and holes, welding or damaging it in any way.
I am unclear about what you mean by making antenna directional for a specific frequency, I don't know if WBAI is sharing an antenna or not. Antennas have to be tuned to the operating frequency or else the standing wave ratio is too high and it becomes inefficient and could damage the transmitter. Maybe confused with “antenna” and “tower”, we are talking FM here.
Just about any radiation pattern can be created by using parasitic elements, reflectors and directors arranged first on computer and later on the antenna mast. I have seen it done. Start with a simple dipole and you bend and shape the pattern using the various elements. It's a bit of work to assemble, all has to be measured and installed correctly. I don't know what other stations will be using the WTC site though
so maybe it was a bad idea. Antenna companies will be happy to design one though, engineers can draw a proposed signal pattern and company can match it fairly well. My station used a custom designed ERI antenna with very good results. They were able to double their power and coverage with out interfering with 3 other stations in adjacent channels. And 2 distant stations on the same channel.
The extra cost for this is nominal, the parts needed, all off the shelf and low cost, easily replaceable
over time as needed. It took strong argument with station owners to get this done, I drew up some basic designs and our team of consulting engineers approved it. There was some added work and cost with the FCC but they were also impressed and gave it a go. All in all it tripled the value of the station. People said it couldn't be done, well I did it.
WBAI might even be able to modify existing antenna, without drilling and holes, welding or damaging it in any way.
I am unclear about what you mean by making antenna directional for a specific frequency, I don't know if WBAI is sharing an antenna or not. Antennas have to be tuned to the operating frequency or else the standing wave ratio is too high and it becomes inefficient and could damage the transmitter. Maybe confused with “antenna” and “tower”, we are talking FM here.
I don't think this can be done on a master antenna. The ESB antennae and the proposed WTC master antenna are both broadband master antennae which have a finite number of ports on them and are shared. There is not enough vertical space at either location for single station installations.
On a broadband master antenna? Where?
Generally, field modifications of existing non-directional elements is not recommended as such directional bays or arrays are usually field tested at the antenna builder's location using an emulation of the proposed support structure and measurements on various critical radials leading to tweaking of the pattern modification elements.
I was being enormously sarcastic in that you were suggesting making a master antenna directional just for WBAI's channel.
To paraphrase you, you need to get out and travel more. The ESB installs are on ports of the master systems.
Scott Fybush may want to add to my simplified (or simple?) understanding of the plumbing issues...
Or the antenna has to be so broadband that it accepts a wide range of frequencies with the same characteristics.
Lemme' see... when I built my first FM in 1966, I put up a tower and then put an antenna on it and ran coax down to the transmitter. I think I still got that straight.
(I did mount the bays horizontally, with tuned reflectors between them so that I could send the power away from the mountainside we sat on at nearly 4000 meters AMSL. The effect was a 100% vertically polarized directional array)
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Custom patterns on boradband master antenna.
Just for sh*ts and giggles I decided to check the ERI site. Looks like they can customise each bay on the broadband to give any pattern desired. Just switch out the bay that resonates to 99.5. Whatever needs to be done, they can do it.
http://www.eriinc.com/Catalog/Antennas/FM-Antennas/1180-Series.aspx
Now the only question is what brand master antenna will be used at WTC and how much does this modification cost. Doesn't hurt for them to ask. They seem to be bringing in more money now. Nice thing about radio.
Just for sh*ts and giggles I decided to check the ERI site. Looks like they can customise each bay on the broadband to give any pattern desired. Just switch out the bay that resonates to 99.5. Whatever needs to be done, they can do it.
http://www.eriinc.com/Catalog/Antennas/FM-Antennas/1180-Series.aspx
Now the only question is what brand master antenna will be used at WTC and how much does this modification cost. Doesn't hurt for them to ask. They seem to be bringing in more money now. Nice thing about radio.
The broadband arrays at many master antenna sites consist of panels placed in the same horizontal plane around the circumference of the structure, whether it is a building spire, tower or mast.
Scott Fybush, who is most familiar with sites and the relevant FCC rules often visits this board. I would hope he would comment on the practicality and feasibility of directionalizing a master antenna at one frequency.
Bringing in money? They have been fundraising for most of the year and are still in the red! Let's get real, there is as much hope for WBAI to be in the black as there is for Lou Reed to walk around again.
"George", you're so out of your league on all the RF stuff. You really should stick to armchair criticism of WBAI and leave the engineering to engineers.
The master antenna on ESB is SHARED by all of the stations. You can't stick parasitic elements up there for only 99.5, and not expect to affect 100.3 and 98.7 at the very least.
No station I have ever contracted for, worked for or have seen has ever had BETTER coverage with a DA. What pattern you see on paper, especially when dealing with FM, is never quite what happens on the actual tower. A lot of times the minima of the pattern is much weaker than what is on paper as well, and the maxima rarely approaches 100%.
The easiest solution without f***ing up a very valuable class B is to swap it for a less valuable, but still effective signal.
And if you've listened to the programming the past 10 years, going back to the restaurant, most of it was "bad food". Compare it to what WBAI used to turn out in the 60's, 70's and 80's product wise and it isn't even close.
The master antenna on ESB is SHARED by all of the stations. You can't stick parasitic elements up there for only 99.5, and not expect to affect 100.3 and 98.7 at the very least.
No station I have ever contracted for, worked for or have seen has ever had BETTER coverage with a DA. What pattern you see on paper, especially when dealing with FM, is never quite what happens on the actual tower. A lot of times the minima of the pattern is much weaker than what is on paper as well, and the maxima rarely approaches 100%.
The easiest solution without f***ing up a very valuable class B is to swap it for a less valuable, but still effective signal.
And if you've listened to the programming the past 10 years, going back to the restaurant, most of it was "bad food". Compare it to what WBAI used to turn out in the 60's, 70's and 80's product wise and it isn't even close.
Reaching New Jersey better will bring in more money though. WBAI, being non-commercial really wouldn't care about the ratings book and if a NYC spills over into a nearby market, it should still show up in the ratings book.
If WBAI wants to continue to sound local, yes they could stay at Empire and leaves things along. If they desire, however to pick up the suburban audience, along with the money that comes with it, they will need to get closer to New Jersey where buildings, and obstructions are out of the way. Being on a taller tower can fix this but they would have to lower power or change pattern so as not to cause interference to adjacent stations, if need be.
Fm's in the past that were using the original WTC site had awesome signal and were very happy.
Notice my first post in this string was about programming. The antenna can be worked on or discussed later, when they get the big money.
“Leave it to the experts”, is why we talk about things here. Please understand, my attitude is to explore new ideas and use the best technology to stay ahead of the pack. New York radio, being number 1 market should always be doing this. Sure, smaller stations and collage radio are good proving grounds for experimenting but we must do out best to keep radio alive and sustainable.
Whatever antenna configurations could be used, that's really up to the company that makes them. Consulting engineers maybe have good computer models but the antenna companies have much better software and field testing sites. Our suggestions here, good or bad, provide new ideas, attitude and direction for many to learn from and use in the future. I hate to say things like “can't do” or “doesn't work”. How many times have we all had to “just make it work”. FCC even likes and encourages new ideas. It's good for the advancement of progress. Just not IBOC on AM – another can of worms.
If WBAI wants to continue to sound local, yes they could stay at Empire and leaves things along. If they desire, however to pick up the suburban audience, along with the money that comes with it, they will need to get closer to New Jersey where buildings, and obstructions are out of the way. Being on a taller tower can fix this but they would have to lower power or change pattern so as not to cause interference to adjacent stations, if need be.
Fm's in the past that were using the original WTC site had awesome signal and were very happy.
Notice my first post in this string was about programming. The antenna can be worked on or discussed later, when they get the big money.
“Leave it to the experts”, is why we talk about things here. Please understand, my attitude is to explore new ideas and use the best technology to stay ahead of the pack. New York radio, being number 1 market should always be doing this. Sure, smaller stations and collage radio are good proving grounds for experimenting but we must do out best to keep radio alive and sustainable.
Whatever antenna configurations could be used, that's really up to the company that makes them. Consulting engineers maybe have good computer models but the antenna companies have much better software and field testing sites. Our suggestions here, good or bad, provide new ideas, attitude and direction for many to learn from and use in the future. I hate to say things like “can't do” or “doesn't work”. How many times have we all had to “just make it work”. FCC even likes and encourages new ideas. It's good for the advancement of progress. Just not IBOC on AM – another can of worms.
WBAI leasing, "Joe Hee Haw" and IBOC option.
Since you like my silly ideas and respond so much, how about this. Suppose WBAI caves in and leases main signal to “Joe Hee Haw” so they can get some money to pay the bills. Perhaps they can continue their eclectic programming on the IBOC channels. Their core audience will be willing to buy the special radios and no worry about coverage because they will only want to reach the main city with this sort of programming anyway. Over time it just might work because the costs involved for keeping the IBOC on the air would be lower and it would really be up to their loyal audience to decide if it will work. I don't like this idea myself but they might like it as a last resort option.
Since you like my silly ideas and respond so much, how about this. Suppose WBAI caves in and leases main signal to “Joe Hee Haw” so they can get some money to pay the bills. Perhaps they can continue their eclectic programming on the IBOC channels. Their core audience will be willing to buy the special radios and no worry about coverage because they will only want to reach the main city with this sort of programming anyway. Over time it just might work because the costs involved for keeping the IBOC on the air would be lower and it would really be up to their loyal audience to decide if it will work. I don't like this idea myself but they might like it as a last resort option.
The problem is that HD coverage is limited, as you say. But you also mention that the HD would be usable in the City, but not the suburbs. But since most HD installs are in cars, and the historically documented usage radio in cars the City and the Boroughs is very very low, there is not going to be much of an audience because there just are not many home and workplace HD radios.
If that audience will not donate to the station, why would they spend money for an HD radio, even if they could find one.
The WTC site loses more in the northern end of the metro, while gaining some non-metro areas to the south.
Were the station commercial, it would not bring in more money reaching out-of-metro parts of NJ. It would bring in less money if it totally misses the critical areas of Farifield-West, Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, Bergen and Passaic counties. Getting a better signal into Ocean County is of no value.
WTC coverage.
You mentioned Bergen and Passaic counties, they are in New Jersey and would not be affected either way. They are so close to NYC you could probaly reach them with a 4 Watt CB radio. Also the new Freedom Tower, WTC#1 will be slightly higher than the old WTC tower. As I said before, the FM stations that were on the original WTC were very happy. As for the signal to the North, doubtful much would be lost as those regions are still close enough for the 50KW signal to penatrate buildings and such. Maybe with UHF or Digital TV this could be a problem but not so much with FM. Also as others have indicated here, we don't really know for sure using computer models, live testing will confirm either way.
You mentioned Bergen and Passaic counties, they are in New Jersey and would not be affected either way. They are so close to NYC you could probaly reach them with a 4 Watt CB radio. Also the new Freedom Tower, WTC#1 will be slightly higher than the old WTC tower. As I said before, the FM stations that were on the original WTC were very happy. As for the signal to the North, doubtful much would be lost as those regions are still close enough for the 50KW signal to penatrate buildings and such. Maybe with UHF or Digital TV this could be a problem but not so much with FM. Also as others have indicated here, we don't really know for sure using computer models, live testing will confirm either way.
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