Using Breakaway as a FM Processor/Stereo Encoder

[BobOnTheJob]

OK, then name another song which causes the same problem. Because for years now, you've been talking about how "Black and White" causes BBP and your sound card to overmodulate, but I don't recall you ever mentioning any other songs which cause the same problem.

One song could just be a fluke -- such as someone in the CD mastering lab getting carried away with an Aphex "Big Bottom" and putting subharmonics on the track -- but if it's part of a repeatable trend, then you know you've found a legitimate problem with your setup.

You've got me on that one. I uninstalled BBP a year ago and frankly don't recall any other titles. The other ones weren't as bad as B&W though. After working in radio engineering for 46 years and being obsessed with seeing a modulation monitor hang on 100% with no peak light flashing when everything is just right, even the slightest overshoot drives me bonkers. For an LPFM (which is what the thread was about in the first place), fixing one song and reducing the average modulation to 85% will probably keep things legal with only a 1.5db loudness loss. That's plenty good enough for many people but I work for commercial stations with owners who would lose a certain amount of respect for my judgement if I asked them to give up that much loudness (or any loudness at all) to save less than $100 on a sound card. We all have different standards...the Trace Alpha is mine. Doesn't make me right and you wrong...it's just how I choose to roll

 

[BobOnTheJob]

DUH, yeah, that's what bob is trying to tell you.The legitimate problem is the M192. !st problem is the output is not DC straight.Even after the mod and tilt adj. the card still caused overshoots on several songs.This is why Leif and Hans both suggest the Marian Trace alpha or Pro as choice number 1. 2nd is the ESI juli which works fine but may require a minor tilt adj. My modded M192 went in the trash where it belongs...

My 192 didn't quite suffer the same fate as yours did, but it's being used for an Adobe Audition sound card where it performs well. I spent a lot of mental energy and time discussing this with Leif and it would be selfish of me not to share this class from the school of hard knocks. I have clients who pay me good money for advice...there was a time when I would get upset when the client ignored my advice. One client explained that I was like his MD. He paid for the advice & it was up to him as to what he did with it. That changed my whole outlook on giving advice. And that outlook extends to "free" advice equally.

 

[kevtronics]

After working in radio engineering for 46 years and being obsessed with seeing a modulation monitor hang on 100% with no peak light flashing when everything is just right, even the slightest overshoot drives me bonkers. For an LPFM (which is what the thread was about in the first place), fixing one song and reducing the average modulation to 85% will probably keep things legal with only a 1.5db loudness loss. That's plenty good enough for many people but I work for commercial stations with owners who would lose a certain amount of respect for my judgement if I asked them to give up that much loudness (or any loudness at all) to save less than $100 on a sound card. We all have different standards...the Trace Alpha is mine. Doesn't make me right and you wrong...it's just how I choose to roll

For the money you'd spend on a good DC-straight 192 kHz sound card, you could get an Optimod 8000, recap it, and use it as your final overshoot clipper/stereo generator... the advantage being, even when the Breakaway PC craps out or needs a reboot, you'd still have a signal on the air.

 

[richard.vanderveen]

For the money you'd spend on a good DC-straight 192 kHz sound card, you could get an Optimod 8000, recap it, and use it as your final overshoot clipper/stereo generator... the advantage being, even when the Breakaway PC craps out or needs a reboot, you'd still have a signal on the air.

But you will never, ever reach the same level of performance...
BTW: why should the PC crap out or need a reboot? Our PC never does, it's up and running 24/7 for over 9 months now.

 

[kevtronics]

But you will never, ever reach the same level of performance...

It is easier and cheaper to find a 48 or 96 kHz sound card with DC-straight output than it is find a 192 kHz sound card with DC-straight output. In that case, the Optimod would merely be acting as an MPX generator.

And obviously I'm talking in context of a station with a (very) limited budget, otherwise they wouldn't be having their audio processing relying on an abandoned piece of software (which Breakaway sadly is these days)...

 

[richard.vanderveen]

And obviously I'm talking in context of a station with a (very) limited budget, otherwise they wouldn't be having their audio processing relying on an abandoned piece of software (which Breakaway sadly is these days)

With all due respect: that's pretty shortsighted. Abandoned doesn't mean it doesn't work anymore. The current status of Breakaway is that it is rocksolid... But hey, if you're convinced a 35+ years old analog device (talk about abandoned...) does a better job than a piece of software that gave birth to a whole new level of digital (hardware) audioprocessing, go for it!

 

[kevtronics]

With all due respect: that's pretty shortsighted. Abandoned doesn't mean it doesn't work anymore. The current status of Breakaway is that it is rocksolid... But hey, if you're convinced a 35+ years old analog device (talk about abandoned...) does a better job than a piece of software that gave birth to a whole new level of digital (hardware) audioprocessing, go for it!

I never said that Breakaway isn't a good piece of software and shouldn't be used if it fits your needs. All I'm saying is that I trust a hardware audio processor -- even a 35-year-old one, if properly maintained -- to be the final link in the chain to my transmitter, more than I trust a PC sound card that was not designed for the purpose.

Another alternative is using a DSPmpX to serve as the overshoot clipper and stereo generator. So, you'd use Breakaway or Stereo Tool on your PC, and then run the output in regular left/right mode into the DSPmpX (or Optimod or whatever other hardware box you want to use), without needing to worry if the sound card is DC-straight, because the hardware box will eliminate any overshoots that the sound card might cause.

And as for the "Black and White Torture Test", I happened to find that song on one of my Time-Life "Sounds of the '70s" CDs, so I gave it a shot on my CRL Amigo FM, with its limiter drive cranked up all the way:

http://www.filedropper.com/bwamigomax

That is a FLAC file with 75 uS pre-emphasis, suitable for use in MpxTool -- another piece of abandonware, but which serves its purpose well. Just set it to a reference level of -3.0 dB and make sure it's in L/R 75us mode.

 

[Robert Bass]

Personally, I don't trust Time Life CD's. I've found songs on those discs with unexplained pitch chnages, etc. I highly recommend TM Studios GoldWave libraries for broadcast use. That's all I ever use on my net station, and all I would ever use on terra radio.

R

 

[WNTIRadio]

I don't get this "I don't trust a PC to be a final link" thinking. What the hell is all of your music playing out of? Certainly not a cart machine or even a CD player. Psssst, hey guys, that's a PC in there. And you have more of them running every other department. Got one of those fancy Nautel transmitters? There's an embedded PC in there as well. Hey, one of them shiny ol' brandy new Omnia.11's?? Yep, embedded PC running Linux in there. The Omnia.9 is a PC running XP embedded. Guess what? Both of mine have been up for 19 months now with no issues.

The PC is a mature product. Built properly, with an SSD drive, minimal crap processes running and properly insulated from the outside world with a good hardware firewall, there's no reason it can't chug along like everything else. Put in redundant power supplies if that worries you.

I'll take a PC over a recapped 8000 any day of the week. And if you're using it as your final stereo gen, you're seriously degrading what's coming out of Breakaway or Stereo Tool. You'll overshoot more with the 8000 than with the sound card.

 

[kevtronics]

No mission-critical device should run on software that can crash. If a music playback/automation PC crashes, at least you can get on mic and play a CD until you get it running again. But if your audio processing is running on a PC and it crashes, you're off the air until you can fix it!

You can say it's different, because the processing PC will be running as an embedded system, without contact to the outside world, so it will be more reliable than a normal PC... but I've seen plenty of embedded systems that crash, ranging from automated checkouts at the supermarket, to mass transit ticket machines, to electronic billboards. Even those that are running Linux instead of Windows are NOT immune to crashing!

The only way I'd trust audio processing running on a PC is if there was a separate redundant PC running alongside it, that could be switched over at the press of a button.

 

[WNTIRadio]

Okay, by your example, using a "crash" in the analog world: Let's say your power supply on the 8000 fries. Or a cap leaks and the bias to one of the IC's goes haywire, maybe an IC just burns up or something drifts out of tolerance over time.

These would be akin to a "crash", and much harder to fix! If my 11 or 9 or my ruggedly built PC crashes, I can reboot it. If I have one of those IP switches or an outlet on a relay connected to my dial up remote control (hey wait, that Burk is a little computer too--oh no!) I can remotely reboot it with a simple power cycle. Try remotely replacing a power supply or recapping it.

Kevin, computers are all around you. A specialized PC running processing software is different from your home PC. It's not being used for anything else, or doing anything else. Sure things break and crash, but think about the old phone company's 5 9's axiom. There will always be that .000001% of a chance that there will be downtime for one reason or another. But equipment, including PC's, can be engineered to have a minimum chance of that happening.

Back to the automation situation, if the machine crashes after 8pm at most radio stations there isn't a soul there to get on mic or play a CD.

Also, for the price of the software and a PC, I can build a complete second processor cheaper than buying an $11k box. Not every client has the money to spend on a brand new Omnia, and this will beat the pants off an 8100, recapped or not.

 

[littlejohn]

"No mission-critical device should run on software that can crash." I last achieved this in the 70s with an AM-FM combo. I suggest it is not achievable today in any form. You can't get decent 810s or 828s to keep those old radios running. I doubt the traffic folks want to go back to xeroxing the commercial strips either. And typing all those invoices is a stone drag.
I'm a bigger luddite than most - but the idea of an uncomputerized system isn't realistic. Or valuable either.

 

[kevtronics]

I'm a bigger luddite than most - but the idea of an uncomputerized system isn't realistic.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about purpose-built microprocessor-driven devices. I was talking about general-use, consumer-grade desktop PCs being used for audio processing and other functions needed to keep a station on the air. Have you seen the inside of a typical PC lately? If it's more than 2 or 3 years old, chances are it already has a bunch of leaking capacitors on the motherboard or inside the power supply. It may still be working, but it's a ticking time bomb.

There is NO comparison between a Made-in-China desktop PC that was designed to last only a few years, and an Optimod or other dedicated broadcast equipment that was built to work forever as long as you recap it every 25 years or so. I would only trust a server-grade computer to keep my station on the air, NOT a consumer-grade PC built using today's garbage RoHS-compliant lead-free components which have an incredibly high failure rate.

 

[WNTIRadio]

Well, yeah. Just as there's no comparison to a bottom of the barrel Kia to a BMW 7 series. I wouldn't build them with an off the shelf Dell, that's for sure.

Redundant power supplies, rack mount case, SSD and behind a hardware firewall. I put it all together, test it and burn it in. I wouldn't use a typical PC anywhere in a radio station that was running mission critical software.

I'll still take my "battle hardened PC" over a 25 year old Optimod.

 

[The F Mister]

I would only trust a server-grade computer to keep my station on the air, NOT a consumer-grade PC built using today's garbage RoHS-compliant lead-free components which have an incredibly high failure rate.

Orbans/Omnias/etc etc etc are all shipped as RoHS compliant as otherwise they would not be able to sell in europe (don't about the rest of the world).

 

[kevtronics]

Orbans/Omnias/etc etc etc are all shipped as RoHS compliant as otherwise they would not be able to sell in europe (don't about the rest of the world).

But they can afford to pick and choose the best components with the best tolerances and MTBF ratings. There is a big difference in quality between Nippon Chemicon and other reputable capacitor manufacturers, and the no-name cheapo Chinese brands that the mainstream consumer electronics brands are using.

 

[speakerman]

I like the Gigabyte motherboards with the solid capacitors for the PCs I build. They have extra thick copper layers and run cool and reliable.

The solid caps have very low ESR and stay stable over a very long time. Use the "Blue Meter" to test ESR.

Just be picky with the components you pick. I have also rebuilt a number of monitors, motherboards (imacs) and power supplies with solid caps with great success. Flea-Bay has many places that sell upgrade kits and you can also get them from the regular parts stores that like to use up a lot of trees for their advertising.

I don't like the new solder but it is the hand we are dealt now. The solder-suck station works with it as long as you get the temperature right and flow some good old 60/40 before pulling the parts.

 

[richard.vanderveen]

But they can afford <SNIP> brands are using.

[offtopic]Is there a specific reason you use 'bold' fonts in every posting?[/offtopic]

 

[kevtronics]

[offtopic]Is there a specific reason you use 'bold' fonts in every posting?[/offtopic]

It is my default setting. The new board lets you choose the font size and style you want to use for all your posts.

 

[Grounded Grid]

Well, I can understand and appreciate all the personal preferences here... I have a boatload of them myself.

Fact is though, I have a couple of PC-based processors running on mountaintops right now... one on a new (then), off-the-shelf Dell computer. The other is running on a similar Dell I got off of Ebay, just to see what kind of fun that might add to the mix. Both have been in service for over 2 years with nary a blip. Neither BBP nor Stereo Tool has "crashed", nor has the XP operating system... not once. The equipment is proving itself in daily, full-charge, "mission critical", unattended use, so if the client might be well served by a little "out-of-the-box" thinking, then I have no problem setting personal biases aside long enough to try something different.

I get a level of performance from these systems that I can't duplicate for the money with hardware boxes. As for reliability, I HAVE had "blips" from other broadcast equipment, built by companies that are well respected here. You fix it and move on.

I don't lose sleep over the processing, custom-built or not. For that matter, I don't lose sleep over any of it. If equipment only failed once in 25 years, many of us would be looking for new careers, and a lot of engineers wouldn't be very familiar with the technology we maintain..

As for keeping "legacy" gear running: I recently sent off an old AM Optimod for reconditioning by Bill and Kim Sacks. There wasn't any debate about the issue... the client wanted to keep the box. It came back, sounding great. It'll be interesting to keep an eye on, but so-far, I haven't had to touch it since I put it back in.