I've heard somewhere that KDKA stopped playing music in April of '92? When was this? Does anyone have an aircheck?
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End of music on KDKA
- Thread starter ksradiogeek
- Start date
That sounds about right. It was when the station picked up Rush Limbaugh.
I have mentioned on this board and even got into a mini-argument with Rick Starr (not venomous, I hope, just a disagreement) that KDKA waited WAAAAAAAY too long to give up music and go all talk.
I have mentioned on this board and even got into a mini-argument with Rick Starr (not venomous, I hope, just a disagreement) that KDKA waited WAAAAAAAY too long to give up music and go all talk.
U
UnregRickStarristered
Guest
Not venomous at all. Just wrong
What is it you think KDKA gave up by waiting? Did another station swoop in and take the talk franchise? Did someone steal the news franchise? Did KD lose a lot of buys because the demos were lower? Did the sports teams flock to the station when the demographics got older? Did the cume go up or down after the switch?
Were they late? A little. WAYYYY? I don't think so.
See, when I've discussed this you've always said how talk was catering to older demos. I realize that's conventional wisdom, as most talk demos are older. In fact, when I was trying to originally get a job as a sports talk show host in my 20s, I was often told by program directors I was too young (we try to cater to the 35-45 crowd, kid).
But when I was 13, I listened to KDKA. A lot. And it wasn't for the music which seemed to be trying to cater to 45-year-old housewives. It was for the Pirates, the Pens, and even talk show hosts like Doug Hoerth and Chris Cross and even Perry Marshall (who knew baseball). KDKA wasn't on my dial until 90-to-Six at the earliest so I could hear Lanny (not Goose- Lanny) give the sports headlines.
But if you start spinning "Send in the Clowns," which was on the playlist at the time, I'd rather be doing my homework.
Now, I don't know what your programmers and marketers said. But I'm just telling you as a member of the younger crowd in those days what I liked and what I listened to.
And I don't think I was the only one. I was reading Alby Oxenrider's bio online recently, and he spoke of how he learned to love broadcasting by calling up Perry Marshall. I was in an arguement with someone about Chris Cross' role in keeping the Pirates in town during that era, and when he said Cross couldn't of been influential because KDKA's audience is too old to matter, I wasn't the only one who refuted that arguement by stating I was less than 30 and listened to the station at the time.
What did KDKA give up by waiting? Well, IMO:
A- Pittsburgh lost something that only a full time 50KW AM talk station could have at the time to advance the city and region's culture
B- The opportunity to build around the sports contracts the station had at the time, which WTAE had all over KDKA and always made, in my opinion, KDKA sports coverage seem second rate.
C- The opportunity to be more contemporary. Everyone knew music on AM was doomed. Playing it, and especially that soft rock playlist at the time, started the rep the station has today of being your father's Oldsmobile.
If you felt that talk wouldn't have made the station more contemporary, might I suggest that had something to do with the talk show hosts. Levine made Bob Louge look hip.
But when I was 13, I listened to KDKA. A lot. And it wasn't for the music which seemed to be trying to cater to 45-year-old housewives. It was for the Pirates, the Pens, and even talk show hosts like Doug Hoerth and Chris Cross and even Perry Marshall (who knew baseball). KDKA wasn't on my dial until 90-to-Six at the earliest so I could hear Lanny (not Goose- Lanny) give the sports headlines.
But if you start spinning "Send in the Clowns," which was on the playlist at the time, I'd rather be doing my homework.
Now, I don't know what your programmers and marketers said. But I'm just telling you as a member of the younger crowd in those days what I liked and what I listened to.
And I don't think I was the only one. I was reading Alby Oxenrider's bio online recently, and he spoke of how he learned to love broadcasting by calling up Perry Marshall. I was in an arguement with someone about Chris Cross' role in keeping the Pirates in town during that era, and when he said Cross couldn't of been influential because KDKA's audience is too old to matter, I wasn't the only one who refuted that arguement by stating I was less than 30 and listened to the station at the time.
What did KDKA give up by waiting? Well, IMO:
A- Pittsburgh lost something that only a full time 50KW AM talk station could have at the time to advance the city and region's culture
B- The opportunity to build around the sports contracts the station had at the time, which WTAE had all over KDKA and always made, in my opinion, KDKA sports coverage seem second rate.
C- The opportunity to be more contemporary. Everyone knew music on AM was doomed. Playing it, and especially that soft rock playlist at the time, started the rep the station has today of being your father's Oldsmobile.
If you felt that talk wouldn't have made the station more contemporary, might I suggest that had something to do with the talk show hosts. Levine made Bob Louge look hip.
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When I moved to Florida in the 90's I got a taste of what talk could be. Neil Rogers, Bob Lassiter in Tampa, Jim Phillips in Orlando, even 13Q alum Don Geronimo with Mark O'Meara via syndication... And Imus via the bird as well. Adult oriented but edgy, topical and connected.
Now I'm not saying you could have put someone like the openly gay Rogers on the air here, especially on KD. But these guys were real talents who entertained and could get people emotional about topics.
Even Glenn Beck, prior to his national gig, was a completely different animal. He was on WFLA in Tampa, and on days when there was a Rays baseball game that ended sometime in his first hour, he would fill the time with a parody of a Cox station that was drive-off-the-road funny.
There has never been a talk talent in this market that was on that level. I wonder how hard any local station ever looked for one.
Now I'm not saying you could have put someone like the openly gay Rogers on the air here, especially on KD. But these guys were real talents who entertained and could get people emotional about topics.
Even Glenn Beck, prior to his national gig, was a completely different animal. He was on WFLA in Tampa, and on days when there was a Rays baseball game that ended sometime in his first hour, he would fill the time with a parody of a Cox station that was drive-off-the-road funny.
There has never been a talk talent in this market that was on that level. I wonder how hard any local station ever looked for one.
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One of the boldest attempts to make AM contemporary with talk/entertainment was WLUP/Chicago in the '80s. They took proven ratings winners Jonathan Brandmeier and Steve & Garry and put them in AM and PM drive. They hired inventive Kevin Mathews. They put a high-profile sports show on the evenings with Chet Coppock, who had been well known from TV. They had a great 50 kw signal in the middle of the dial. They had a promotional budget. It didn't work. People don't pay attention to AM, and that was over 20 years ago. It has to be worse now.
Well, we were talking almost 30 years ago (Dear God!) and people were paying attention to AM radio then as there were still stations in the Top 10.
It depends on what your definition of not making it is. Did WTAE not make it because they are Disney now? Or did they have a very good run as a general talk station and then as a sports station.
I would submit to you that the formats were very successful, because even when they were changed to something more contemporary, other stations pretty much picked up on what they were doing (first WPTT with News Talk 1250, today The X is the old ESPN 1250 reshuffled a bit) and carried it into the next decade.
It depends on what your definition of not making it is. Did WTAE not make it because they are Disney now? Or did they have a very good run as a general talk station and then as a sports station.
I would submit to you that the formats were very successful, because even when they were changed to something more contemporary, other stations pretty much picked up on what they were doing (first WPTT with News Talk 1250, today The X is the old ESPN 1250 reshuffled a bit) and carried it into the next decade.
R
Rallen1st
Guest
Wow... I couldn't agree more... would be nice to be able to listen to the radio again and listen to interesting and fun conversation that isn't sports (not a fan at all), political/hate or religion...
Back in the 90's and early 00's we in DC had "Guy Talk" WJFK featuring Howard Stern in the Morning and Don and Mike in the Afternoon... listened to that station all the time back then... really don't listen to radio anymore.
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I used to stay up late just to listen to Jack Wheeler when he did overnights. I thought him edgy at the time.
Excellent point. The first few years of Wheeler's KDKA show were very entertaining and unconventional.
Never liked Fox with his phony voice and phony laugh, but he did a very fast-paced show. He was the first KDKA host to pot down callers and get silently rid of them after their initial point. He ran the show with the pace of a Top 40 format, moving quickly to the next caller.
KDKA's sister station WBZ-1030 in Boston, continued playing music in daytime hours until the outbreak of the first Gulf War in January of 1991 ('BZ had been Top-40 from the late 1950's through 1968 or 1969, then it stopped playing music at night and what music remained went more towards Adult Contemporary).
When that war broke out, the daytime DJ shows were converted to talk.
But that didn't last long. Morning and the rest of afternoon drive ('BZ did have an hour or so late-afternoon news block from the late 1980's-onward) were converted to all-news a short time later, with middays remaining talk.
But after a few months of midday talk sandwiched by morning and afternoon drive news blocks, 'BZ converted middays to news around 1992.
WBZ's decision may have been influenced by the fact that the old WEEI-590 dropped news and went all-sports in August of 1991.
When that war broke out, the daytime DJ shows were converted to talk.
But that didn't last long. Morning and the rest of afternoon drive ('BZ did have an hour or so late-afternoon news block from the late 1980's-onward) were converted to all-news a short time later, with middays remaining talk.
But after a few months of midday talk sandwiched by morning and afternoon drive news blocks, 'BZ converted middays to news around 1992.
WBZ's decision may have been influenced by the fact that the old WEEI-590 dropped news and went all-sports in August of 1991.
One of the big factors in AM stations' dropping music was the desire to eliminate licensing fees. It made no sense to take on that large expense to play music part-time.
Again you choose to mold history to suit your own personal preferences. Talk does not make a station "more contemporary." Almost invariably the demos below 40 disappear (with a few individual exception, of which you may perhaps be one.) The few stations which tried "contemporary talk" were abject failures, and Howard Stern was about the only success story in that genre (with good demos) and seems not a program likely to be favored on Westinghouse boomers at the time.
"Sports" is not a panacea, not by a longshot. Yes, you can build around it, but it exists as an island and must be used carefully. What do I mean by this? Personal example: at WBZ The GM and I eliminated the most popular program on the station "Calling All Sports" (and the most popular sports program in the market), because it was a roadblock to female listeners. (We had the Patriots and the Celtics at the time.) By itself, killer show. Evaluated by a time slot including the hours before and after, disaster. At 8PM, when it went off the air, we were tasked with rebuilding the audience from zero. When the show was eliminated our numbers went up around the clock thanks to audience flow.
Now it is true that KDKA had the Pirates (and some other inconsequential sports) and WTAE had the Steelers. Without Myron it's doubtful they could have maintained that relationship over time. So as great as Myron was (both ratings and sales) I might posit that they might have been better off without the Myron/Steelers franchise entirely. (I use the example of WHDH which creamed WBZ with a WTAE-like approach sans sports. Female audience flow piles up hour by hour, whereas male audience waxes and wanes to a far greater extent. (Jobs and all that.) Again I'm aware you will disagree - and vehemently - but I chalk that up to your propensity to evaluate in light of your personal predilections, in this case "sports." (Had I been running WTAE, I will say, I likely would have let it be, too, as Ted Atkins did.) You really need to become more dispassionate.
Yes, everybody knew music on AM was doomed, but that doesn't mean you abandon it immediately. Everybody knows that dumb phones are doomed. Does that mean nobody should produce them anymore? It's still a highly profitable, if declining segment. You abandon a product for a couple reasons: because it has become unprofitable, or to preclude a competitor from forever taking a lucrative franchise from you. Neither of those things was true, so the shift timing is important, because such a change WILL cost you money. I can't speak to the change to talk, but I will tell you the shift from Bogut to Cigna cost us a million dollars in lost revenue (and therefore profit.)
Finally, stations don't exist "to improve the culture" or any of that nonsense. They exist to make money. All decisions, essentially, will devolve to that simple metric. Anything else is fantasy.
And a certain number of listeners attributed the Steelers to KDKA, even though they were on WTAE. I saw those diaries with my own eyes, many times, while doing Arbitron reviews.
C.
Obviously I don't have numbers to support this, but my feeling was that with the lineup of OBG-Quinn-Berns in the daytime, WTAE leaned male anyway and therefore Myron was a plus.
Once they hired Bogut, however, different story. After the switch, my mom asked me one day to "find that station Jack Bogut went to" for her (like many in her generation, either it was KDKA or the radio was off). She listened for a bit, but quickly decided she couldn't stand Cope's commentaries during the news breaks, and went back to KD. Forever.
The sports format succeeded because stations realized you couldn't just have a standalone show anymore.
Makes me wonder how much longer CC will try to throw a blanket over the male 18-34 demo with the rock/Madden/Pens mashup on the X.
I realize Rick isn't going to come on here and say "Dammit- I did make a mistake" BUT
Rick- You're asking us to believe:
A- WTAE would possibly have been better off without Myron Cope
B- Penn State football at the height of their popularity (National Championship years) and a young new phenominom called Mario Lemieux and the Penguins that would redefine Pittsburgh culture was "inconsequential."
C- That a loyal listener to the station's sports and talk shows (and even Ninety to Six for news and sports), who had a "Pittsburgh's the One" KDKA bumper sticker on his Trapper Keeper (keep your comments to yourself) needs to be more "dispassionate."
Actually, I was. I listened to Hoerth and Musick when KDKA had music.
In my entire life, I have met only two people who enjoyed listening to KDKA for music. One was the guy who ran the mailroom at Point Park and while he was a nice enough and gentle guy, he was well on the other side of 60 and must be at least 85 now. Another was this clueless loser who kept trying to strike up conversations with people at a sports bar in 1998 when all we wanted to do was watch the games. And yes, his forced conversation lines waxing poetic for KDKA's music didn't go over well.
All age groups. All genders. All my life. Two people, neither of them I would classify as the sort of audience anyone wanted.
Even in the days of AM music, you never hear about KDKA as a music station despite the fact of all the AM stations in town they would have to have the clearest signal. You hear people waxing poetic for KQV, or Porky on WAMO, but waxing poetic for KDKA in a bygone era means Bob Prince (sports) and "Party Line" (talk).
Now, that's not my "personal predilections." That's Western Pennsylvania.
I just read some of the things you've written and they are cliches. "Contemporary talk never works unless it's Howard Stern." I would argue that sports talk IS contemporary talk, but regardless, I am aware of the failures of the format- such as in Pittsburgh recently with 93.7- "The Man Station" or some such thing.
But was the reason that failed that the format was doomed or that the hosts were terrible? I would argue the latter. I think it's readily accepted fact John McIntire should never be allowed in front of a microphone again. John Steigerwald trying to lure in youth is comical. Scott Paulsen is still trying to complete the points he began on that station. There was a diamond in the rough- Dave Dameshek- but he was out the door before they could build around him and probably destined for a bigger market despite his Pittsburgh roots. And he goes back to the idea of sports talk often being contemporary talk. The Fan's morning show is as likely to discuss Miley Cyrus twerking as they are the Steelers.
Say sports talk is too male dominated? Perhaps that's the motivation that led KDKA to can Doug Hoerth for Michelle Madoff- perhaps the worst move in the history of Pittsburgh talk radio. I know- you'll tell me Hoerth never had big numbers. Yet somehow, he was referenced by Mark Madden as "the greatest talk show host in the history of Pittsburgh" in an expose of modern Pittsburgh talk by the Post-Gazette a few weeks ago.
Madden will even tell you he "stole from Hoerth as much as anyone," including Howard Stern.
So the one bright player of the KDKA lineup back then that still has influence today was told his services weren't needed because of the same motivations that kept the dumb phone of music in the daytime on.
Now, Madden doesn't do well with women, either. But he is also, arguably, the most significant radio talk personality, for better or worse, in Pittsburgh during the past 20 years (Jim Quinn might argue; I'll accept other nominations as well but he's making the final list).
And the last I saw, Pittsburgh was getting its millionth gentleman's club in the Penthouse Club. We are neck and neck with Columbus, Georgia in that category now.
So what am I not getting here? We should scrap this for, what, bra ads? Sad to say the Pussycat in Squirrel Hill has shut its doors for the last time.
Back to the KDKA music/dumb phone analogy. Hey, I was at Wal-Mart yesterday and saw blank VHS cassettes for sale.
But I saw far more DVDs and CDs.
If you were making money on the dumb phone format, it goes into perhaps the one thing about radio I don't like, and that is a lack of forward thinking. It's the same mindset that has stations not standing up to Remnant World's 1971 ad that is still being played (cue pedal steel- "WEL-COME TO THE WERE-ULD OF SAVINGS!") or, in the case of your current home, Rick, adjusting their entire formats so that preachers can rant about the evils of birth control pills for $50 a half hour every Sunday morning.
THAT SAID!!!!!!
We love ya, Rick, welcome your contributions to the forum (why do you log in under a new handle all the time, though), and a big THANK YOU for your role in bringing back Bob Prince. Earlier generations had him for years- I had him- thanks in large part to you- for one game (along with some old record albums).
But it was enough, and I wish you all the best as I kiss this lengthy post goodbye!
Cause I got this thread all the way.
Rick- You're asking us to believe:
A- WTAE would possibly have been better off without Myron Cope
B- Penn State football at the height of their popularity (National Championship years) and a young new phenominom called Mario Lemieux and the Penguins that would redefine Pittsburgh culture was "inconsequential."
C- That a loyal listener to the station's sports and talk shows (and even Ninety to Six for news and sports), who had a "Pittsburgh's the One" KDKA bumper sticker on his Trapper Keeper (keep your comments to yourself) needs to be more "dispassionate."
Actually, I was. I listened to Hoerth and Musick when KDKA had music.
In my entire life, I have met only two people who enjoyed listening to KDKA for music. One was the guy who ran the mailroom at Point Park and while he was a nice enough and gentle guy, he was well on the other side of 60 and must be at least 85 now. Another was this clueless loser who kept trying to strike up conversations with people at a sports bar in 1998 when all we wanted to do was watch the games. And yes, his forced conversation lines waxing poetic for KDKA's music didn't go over well.
All age groups. All genders. All my life. Two people, neither of them I would classify as the sort of audience anyone wanted.
Even in the days of AM music, you never hear about KDKA as a music station despite the fact of all the AM stations in town they would have to have the clearest signal. You hear people waxing poetic for KQV, or Porky on WAMO, but waxing poetic for KDKA in a bygone era means Bob Prince (sports) and "Party Line" (talk).
Now, that's not my "personal predilections." That's Western Pennsylvania.
I just read some of the things you've written and they are cliches. "Contemporary talk never works unless it's Howard Stern." I would argue that sports talk IS contemporary talk, but regardless, I am aware of the failures of the format- such as in Pittsburgh recently with 93.7- "The Man Station" or some such thing.
But was the reason that failed that the format was doomed or that the hosts were terrible? I would argue the latter. I think it's readily accepted fact John McIntire should never be allowed in front of a microphone again. John Steigerwald trying to lure in youth is comical. Scott Paulsen is still trying to complete the points he began on that station. There was a diamond in the rough- Dave Dameshek- but he was out the door before they could build around him and probably destined for a bigger market despite his Pittsburgh roots. And he goes back to the idea of sports talk often being contemporary talk. The Fan's morning show is as likely to discuss Miley Cyrus twerking as they are the Steelers.
Say sports talk is too male dominated? Perhaps that's the motivation that led KDKA to can Doug Hoerth for Michelle Madoff- perhaps the worst move in the history of Pittsburgh talk radio. I know- you'll tell me Hoerth never had big numbers. Yet somehow, he was referenced by Mark Madden as "the greatest talk show host in the history of Pittsburgh" in an expose of modern Pittsburgh talk by the Post-Gazette a few weeks ago.
Madden will even tell you he "stole from Hoerth as much as anyone," including Howard Stern.
So the one bright player of the KDKA lineup back then that still has influence today was told his services weren't needed because of the same motivations that kept the dumb phone of music in the daytime on.
Now, Madden doesn't do well with women, either. But he is also, arguably, the most significant radio talk personality, for better or worse, in Pittsburgh during the past 20 years (Jim Quinn might argue; I'll accept other nominations as well but he's making the final list).
And the last I saw, Pittsburgh was getting its millionth gentleman's club in the Penthouse Club. We are neck and neck with Columbus, Georgia in that category now.
So what am I not getting here? We should scrap this for, what, bra ads? Sad to say the Pussycat in Squirrel Hill has shut its doors for the last time.
Back to the KDKA music/dumb phone analogy. Hey, I was at Wal-Mart yesterday and saw blank VHS cassettes for sale.
But I saw far more DVDs and CDs.
If you were making money on the dumb phone format, it goes into perhaps the one thing about radio I don't like, and that is a lack of forward thinking. It's the same mindset that has stations not standing up to Remnant World's 1971 ad that is still being played (cue pedal steel- "WEL-COME TO THE WERE-ULD OF SAVINGS!") or, in the case of your current home, Rick, adjusting their entire formats so that preachers can rant about the evils of birth control pills for $50 a half hour every Sunday morning.
THAT SAID!!!!!!
We love ya, Rick, welcome your contributions to the forum (why do you log in under a new handle all the time, though), and a big THANK YOU for your role in bringing back Bob Prince. Earlier generations had him for years- I had him- thanks in large part to you- for one game (along with some old record albums).
But it was enough, and I wish you all the best as I kiss this lengthy post goodbye!
Cause I got this thread all the way.
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